Ram 2500 Hemi vs 3500 SRW Cummins

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yoda

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One thing I never see people talk about when comparing the cost of the diesel over the gas in purchase price and return on investment is the "mental" side of the equation. Some will think I'm crazy or this doesn't make much sense but here is what I mean.

If you tow a fair amount (towing anything) there is a lot of mental things going on. "Can I merge onto the interstate safely and efficiently? Can I make a pass safely and quickly to not hold up traffic behind me? Am I going to have enough fuel to get me to the next station since I only get 175 miles/tank? What is the wear and tear on my gasser over the long haul? I would think these are common questions everyone who tows a trailer has in their heads. Some may battle over these questions ,more than others. For some, me included, these thoughts and the comfort I would get towing with a diesel is worth some of that additional cost, not just the hard numbers everyone talks about.

I could get a $50 Chinese axe and a $150 Gransfors Bruk felling axe. Both will do the job fine. While my initial cost is three time what I pay for the Chinese axe I am at peace with my $150 purchase knowing that the additional money spent will more than make up for the additional expense.

Just some ramblings while sitting ar the tire shop having a flat repair done on my work 1500.

I work on these things everyday and went with the 6.4 over the Cummins for the mental peace of mind. I would be thinking "is my DEF system going to take a **** and tell me I have 150 miles untill I am restricted to 5 mph when I am on vacation towing my camper somewhere?"With the gas it may take a little longer but at least I will get there and back. LOL
 

loveracing1988

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Interesting you would go with the Aisin Transmission option. I looked into this when I bought my 2014 3500 SRW CTD and all the Aisin transmission did was lower my towing limits by 140 lbs (the extra weight of the Aisin Transmission). Unless you go with the DRW or need the ability of the PTO, the Aisin transmission was nothing more than a $2800 waste of cash. Maybe longevity of the transmission might come into play but the A6 68RFE is a proven transmission so not sure about longevity issues. Am I missing something? please explain your though process behind the Aisin transmission in a SRW.

https://www.ramtrucks.com/assets/towing_guide/pdf/2016_ram_3500_towing_charts.pdf
My first answer would be "why not"? Going from 800 ft lbs to 900 ft lbs would be a positive too.

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BossHogg

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I would be thinking "is my DEF system going to take a **** and tell me I have 150 miles untill I am restricted to 5 mph when I am on vacation towing my camper somewhere?

That is a fairly flawed reason lacking research. Of the 10s of thousands of these current emissions Cummins on the road, only a few have had issues and most of those were traced back to, for example, Walmart DEF jugs returned full of water, from what I've read on the various forums.

The reliability and dependability of the Cummins are unequaled.

Better reasons would be cost, small increase of maintenance costs, slow warm-up in cold weather, annoying dead-pedal, reduced vehicle payload, dual batteries, etc.
 

BossHogg

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Interesting you would go with the Aisin Transmission option. I looked into this when I bought my 2014 3500 SRW CTD and all the Aisin transmission did was lower my towing limits by 140 lbs (the extra weight of the Aisin Transmission). Unless you go with the DRW or need the ability of the PTO, the Aisin transmission was nothing more than a $2800 waste of cash. Maybe longevity of the transmission might come into play but the A6 68RFE is a proven transmission so not sure about longevity issues. Am I missing something?

You are not missing anything unless I am too. I did the same research before ordering my 2015 SRW. The 68RFE earned a bad reputation back in the days when all the Cummins guys had to do to increase power was turn a screw on the injector pump pushing the power well beyond what the 68RFE was designed to handle.

The Aisin was brought into the mix for the C&C so a PTO could be offered for services vehicles like tow and dump. Because the Aisin made its way onto the pickups, folks got the impression it was a better transmission which it isn't. A bit of research on Allpar and the Cummins forum will yield results that Aisin owners do not want to hear. Also remember the C&C Cummins are derated to 600-foot pounds and serve the commercial duty market well.

In the Aisin 68RFE side by side tear-down compare, the differences were minor giving the Aisin the ability to handle more torque, but not $2,600 better and increasing your service costs since the Aisin requires more frequent service intervals.

If I was going to go to a dually I might consider the Aisin for the addition 100 foot-pounds but unless I am towing north of 20,000 I think I will keep the $2,600 in my pocket.

My thoughts after careful consideration, what did I miss? Now that I have two seasons of towing a 15,000 fiver, I'm not feeling I got cheated with the 68RFE.
 

yoda

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That is a fairly flawed reason lacking research. Of the 10s of thousands of these current emissions Cummins on the road, only a few have had issues and most of those were traced back to, for example, Walmart DEF jugs returned full of water, from what I've read on the various forums.

The reliability and dependability of the Cummins are unequaled.

Better reasons would be cost, small increase of maintenance costs, slow warm-up in cold weather, annoying dead-pedal, reduced vehicle payload, dual batteries, etc.
Research? What research are you referring to? Reading internet forums?
I work on this stuff everyday, just had one this week. No other emissions system shuts you completely down until it is fixed, There is no limping it home. That's my main issue with any of the new diesels. These systems are very complex, lots of things to fail. Thy fail on fairly new trucks, it only gets worse with age and miles.
Not the manufacturers fault, Federal Gov. mandated it that way.
 
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loveracing1988

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Not if it happens to you, I work on this stuff everyday, just had one this week. No other emissions system shuts you completely down until it is fixed, There is no limping it home. That's my main issue with any of the new diesels. These systems are very complex, lots of things to fail. Thy fail on fairly new trucks, it only gets worse with age and miles.
Not the manufacturers fault, Federal Gov. mandated it that way.
They mandated the emissions standards, it is up to the manufacturers to meet it however they want, they don't have to use DEF, but it is what we have right now. I'm sure in a few years there will be some breakthrough and it will simplify the emissions to that of a gas motor, but until then I find it kind of nice driving behind diesel trucks that don't belch black smoke.

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yoda

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They mandated the emissions standards, it is up to the manufacturers to meet it however they want, they don't have to use DEF, but it is what we have right now. I'm sure in a few years there will be some breakthrough and it will simplify the emissions to that of a gas motor, but until then I find it kind of nice driving behind diesel trucks that don't belch black smoke.

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Agreed. but the Feds mandated if your DEF system fails, the truck cannot be driven. Period. They could at least have let the manufacturer, derate the engine, or max speed 55. Nope your dead on the road. You can have a gas motor running pig rich cat converter missing belching hydrocarbons and you can still drive it. Not fair or reasonable in my opinion
 

loveracing1988

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Agreed. but the Feds mandated if your DEF system fails, the truck cannot be driven. Period. They could at least have let the manufacturer, derate the engine, or max speed 55. Nope your dead on the road. You can have a gas motor running pig rich cat converter missing belching hydrocarbons and you can still drive it. Not fair or reasonable in my opinion
I partially understand their reasoning, but you are right it isn't right. As far as I understood it though it gives you a warning as to how far you have to go until it goes into limp mode, but I don't have any actual experience with them.

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yoda

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I partially understand their reasoning, but you are right it isn't right. As far as I understood it though it gives you a warning as to how far you have to go until it goes into limp mode, but I don't have any actual experience with them.

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You get 150 miles, then truck will go 5 mph max. If your on vacation out west etc. Your callin a tow truck. Im not saying this is super common, but it happens.
My biggest gripe is allot of guys don't know this. They show up at our dealer and are pissed at me because the parts on backorder or whatever. I feel for them but I didn't build the thing or make the rules.
 
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BossHogg

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Yoda - you work on them and I used to design them, well, I was a powertrain engineer that worked on teams (one of hundreds of folks) that designed diesel, gas, and hybrid powertrains (GM retired).

My point was, you may work on one here and there but keep focused the 10s of thousands that never had an issue. Using a DEF system as justification not to buy a diesel, well, it isn't a good reason as I was attempting to point out.

There are many reasons that will put a gas powertrain into limp-home mode too.
 

yoda

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Yoda - you work on them and I used to design them, well, I was a powertrain engineer that worked on teams (one of hundreds of folks) that designed diesel, gas, and hybrid powertrains (GM retired).

My point was, you may work on one here and there but keep focused the 10s of thousands that never had an issue. Using a DEF system as justification not to buy a diesel, well, it isn't a good reason as I was attempting to point out.

There are many reasons that will put a gas powertrain into limp-home mode too.
Yes I sometimes tell people who ask my advice about a vehicle, what vehicles to stay away from, but then again I only see the problem vehicles, I realize there are probably many many on the road that never have an issue. I only see the ones with problems so it may seem more of an issue than it is in reality.
My main issue I have with the new diesels is not the manufactures fault, my issue is the way the feds mandated they are completely shut down if there is a problem with the DEF system.
Anything that can fail will. Only the diesel Def systems,(as mandated by the feds), is to not able to be driven to even get home, if there is any problem at all. You get 150 miles, That's it!
That was point in my first post. Knowing the complexity of these systems worries me.
Sometimes it would be nice to not know all the things that could leave you dead on the road. Probably my OCD kickin in LOL
 

BossHogg

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Sometimes it would be nice to not know all the things that could leave you dead on the road. Probably my OCD kickin in LOL

No OCD, if everyone knew what we know they would take a second look at plopping down their hard-earned bucks for a new vehicle.

In reality, I've only been stranded by a vehicle once, 1988 Thunderbird, the serpentine tensioner broke. The dealer came out, towed the vehicle and set me up with a loaner. I also had a 2003 Tahoe Z71 that had a bad habit of falsely setting a throttle pedal DTC causing limp mode. I had a way of entering the vehicle and bumping the accelerator while starting the engine. The DTC would clear after 20 ignition cycles, after the second time, I picked up a code reader and cleared the DTC so I could drive on.

I should also point out that I drive most of my vehicles well past 160,000 miles, the Taho hit 300,000 before I retired it. Knowing what can go wrong versus what goes wrong, well.
 

yoda

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I had a 87 Lebaron coupe 2.2 Turbo. I replaced the headgasket and timing belt,I thought to myself, maybe I should put a water pump in it as long as I have it apart.
The reman mopar water pump failed within about 200 miles and left me stranded.
The worse part is there was nothing wrong with the original pump, I thought I was being proactive. LOL
 

Devin1349

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@bosshogg i got one for ya, the day i bought my first car, 1972 Dodge Dart Swinger 318 it died on me on I-5 North leaving Seattle in the Center lane. luckily my brother was with me so we had to push it into the middle area between the slow lane and the exit lane. during rush hour.
 

SwollenMonkey16

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I just traded in my 1500 5.7 for a 2500 6.4 and man it's a monster. I love it. I wanted a CTD but was too expensive and diesels scare me bc I don't know anything about them. Yes diesels are known to last long but there are some that conk out fast too. I opted for the 6.4 bc it was a Gasser, fit my budget and is built to last a long time. Hoping to get over 350k miles out of it. My 4.7 has 221k miles on it now and still running strong.
 
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