Payload

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Jimmy07

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That's not true, payload is a real number, with legal ramifications. There are examples of trucks with payload less than GVWR- base weight as well, that is not always how they calculate payload. The GRAWR is taken into account in some instances.

If you want to know what's PR and what isn't, look at your door stickers.

C'mon, now...this is incorrect also. By definition, the only way to calculate payload is GVwR - base weight. That's it. There's no disputing it, and there's no other way to calculate it. Axle weight rating has no factor whatsoever...in no instances.
 

Totesmygoats

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C'mon, now...this is incorrect also. By definition, the only way to calculate payload is GVwR - base weight. That's it. There's no disputing it, and there's no other way to calculate it. Axle weight rating has no factor whatsoever...in no instances.

K, how do you think GVWR is determined? You're using derivative knowledge, that simplifies to what you think, and that's fine if you actually believe payload is a "thing".

But when you claim it's not and you can ignore and just pay attention to GVWR, you become ignorant.

Hint; axle ratings are part of the equation. Hint 2; you can be within GVWR and over your axle rating. You're going to say that's impossible, but before you do, just think about it for while.
 

yillbs

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K, how do you think GVWR is determined? You're using derivative knowledge, that simplifies to what you think, and that's fine if you actually believe payload is a "thing".

But when you claim it's not and you can ignore and just pay attention to GVWR, you become ignorant.

Hint; axle ratings are part of the equation. Hint 2; you can be within GVWR and over your axle rating. You're going to say that's impossible, but before you do, just think about it for while.

I know I vowed to stay quiet, but what? gvwr is determined by the manufacturer, it states the most your vehicle can weigh... This is not really up for debate, it's just the way it is. How do YOU think gvwr is determined lol?

The rear axle rating on a typical ram truck is within 200 pounds of 6900 pounds. The weight OVer the rear axle from the factor is a whopping 2200 pounds, the front is a whopping 3200 pounds. Payload from the factory is about 1500 pounds, 2200 + 1500 == 3700 pounds, at that point, i'm over GVWR and under Axle rating, when you take into account the weights of a lifted truck, simply not possible.

I've noticed you like to call to action lots of really random, far off examples, unrelated to the Dodge ram half ton series. This thread , and most threads are referring to Dodge ram half ton trucks, not fords, not chevy's, but RAM. Instead of saying " it can be done ", why don't you focus on what can be done on a RAM half ton pickup, as that's what we're all discussing, other than you. Even if you COULD go over rear axle and under GVWR , then you'd still be over one of the hard limits on the truck, and would need to stop. the GRAWR is equally as important as the GVWR , both need to be under, you can't be under RAWR and over GVWR and be considered safe, and you can't be under GVWR and over RAWR to be safe.

That brings us back to PAYLOAD, which is, as DEFINED by the manufacturer, the GVWR MINUS the weight of the truck. THat's becuase you can't go over your axle, and stay under your GVWR unless it were to be an extreme situation where you managed to strip the truck down ,and remove the weight from the rear axle.
 
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Totesmygoats

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I know I vowed to stay quiet, but what? gvwr is determined by the manufacturer, it states the most your vehicle can weigh... This is not really up for debate, it's just the way it is. How do YOU think gvwr is determined lol

That brings us back to PAYLOAD, which is, as DEFINED by the manufacturer, the GVWR MINUS the weight of the truck. THat's becuase you can't go over your axle, and stay under your GVWR unless it were to be an extreme situation where you managed to strip the truck down ,and remove the weight from the rear axle.


Saying GVWR is determined by subtracting base weight from GVWR is ignorant at best. As I said, that is a derivative understanding.

GVWR is determined by payload capacity. Let me say that again, GVWR comes from payload. It's not the other way around. Saying payload is determined by GVWR is like saying axles are rated by GVWR/2, it's simply not true, and it's stupid to even think that. I tried to give you guys hints to figure it out yourselves, but I guess you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

To determine GVWR manufacturers take axle and tire load ratings, they then determine payload values based on those in certain configurations. Specifically they are looking at worst case scenarios. Once they have that payload value they determine GVWR. I don't understand what other way you could have possibly thought this was done. :idiot:

So, like I said payload is determined using GAWRs and/or tire loading. Yes, payload ends up being GVWR-base weight, but that's only because GVWR is determined by payload. :slap:

Thinking payload comes from GVWR is derivative, and that's fine if you don't question payload. But, you decided payload "wasn't a thing" without any real knowledge or understanding of how any of these things work. And you were wrong. :whymewhyme:

I don't expect you to understand this in the slightest to be honest. I know it's going to be wayyyy over your head. But suffice to say, literally every single thing I have told you is a fact, plain and simple. You're wasting my time at this point though. I know you either can't or wont understand any of this, the only reason I'm bothering is so other people who are more open to learning can enrich themselves.

This wasn't even the point of my post anyways by the way, that was that payload is official and on the sticker. We have already demonstrated you're 100% wrong on that, so I guess you wanted to jump back in on the not terribly relevant part in yet another chance to sound right, but, you should have stopped digging your hole, but you just can't help yourself.

Good day sir /sarcasm
 

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Ram says what the GVWR is, and they say what the payload is....so follow it.

Just like my boat.....

The coast guard has a formula for determining max hp on any boat under 20' long. Exceed that, and you can get a big ticket, just like exceeding GVWR.

NOW, the boat manufacturer can put any number on the ratings sticker they want, even if it is LOWER, as long as they do not exceed the rating per the formula.

When I got my boat, it was rated for 200 hp....and by the formula, it could have been rated for as high as 220 hp, but no one makes a 220 hp motor.

Now, when too many people were buying the smaller boat with the higher hp to go fast (75+ mph), they decided to derate the hull to 150 hp (with no changes in construction that required lowering it), to force people who wanted to go fast to spend more on a bigger boat & motor. This is perfectly legal for them to do. They did it, and got so much flack over it from consumers, that 2 yrs later, they bumped the rating back up to 175 hp. Still less than 200+ hp it could handle, but it appeased more people and reached a happy medium for all.


Now, according to your logic, I could put a 220 hp motor on the newer hull, even tho it is only rated for a 175, and because the formula says so, I can run it.....but that is wrong. You can not exceed the rating plate, which is determined by the manufacturer, no matter if the hull can handle it or not.



And in the previous post...you forgot rim ratings.....the factory steel rims were the limiting factor on the 97 dually ctd I had, not the tires or axles.
 

yillbs

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Saying GVWR is determined by subtracting base weight from GVWR is ignorant at best. As I said, that is a derivative understanding.

GVWR is determined by payload capacity. Let me say that again, GVWR comes from payload. It's not the other way around. Saying payload is determined by GVWR is like saying axles are rated by GVWR/2, it's simply not true, and it's stupid to even think that. I tried to give you guys hints to figure it out yourselves, but I guess you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

To determine GVWR manufacturers take axle and tire load ratings, they then determine payload values based on those in certain configurations. Specifically they are looking at worst case scenarios. Once they have that payload value they determine GVWR. I don't understand what other way you could have possibly thought this was done. :idiot:

So, like I said payload is determined using GAWRs and/or tire loading. Yes, payload ends up being GVWR-base weight, but that's only because GVWR is determined by payload. :slap:

Thinking payload comes from GVWR is derivative, and that's fine if you don't question payload. But, you decided payload "wasn't a thing" without any real knowledge or understanding of how any of these things work. And you were wrong. :whymewhyme:

I don't expect you to understand this in the slightest to be honest. I know it's going to be wayyyy over your head. But suffice to say, literally every single thing I have told you is a fact, plain and simple. You're wasting my time at this point though. I know you either can't or wont understand any of this, the only reason I'm bothering is so other people who are more open to learning can enrich themselves.

This wasn't even the point of my post anyways by the way, that was that payload is official and on the sticker. We have already demonstrated you're 100% wrong on that, so I guess you wanted to jump back in on the not terribly relevant part in yet another chance to sound right, but, you should have stopped digging your hole, but you just can't help yourself.

Good day sir /sarcasm

Are you kidding me, you went on about all of that because of the way you think they calculate gvwr? All I said was from the beginning you have to stay under the gvwr, doesn't matter what the payload is, the gvwr is all that matters. You literally just agreed with me, ffs.

Payload only exists because of gvwr, if the gvwr did not exist, then payload would not exist. And once more, cargo capacity is listed on a sticker, not the pr buzzword /
"Payload" , also once again, were going in circles, the guy initially asked is 1500 would be over, I explained how it was over, and explained how to calculate the number, which..... Again, as I've said like 30 times now, gvwr minus truck weight equals cargo capacity. If.you can't exceed the gvwr payload doesn't matter, your payload is still dynamic, if you add weight to the truck your payload changes, which is why on the sticker it's called cargo capacity and not payload, because payload changes every time you get in the damn truck.

The main issue is your calling important details semantics. The literal definition of payload is , the part of a vehicle's load, especially an aircraft's, from which revenue is derived; passengers and cargo.payload is literally the unit of measurement of actual cargo, it's like a pound, or a gallon, it's just a unit of.measurement that automakers started using.to sellctrucks, nothing more. Payload is always an estimation because their is no actual way to market an actual payload as every truck is always different every time you get I. It. That's why EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER says payload is an ESTIMATE. These aren't debatable topics, it's on the websites of each manufacturer, you can't seriously say they are wrong, they make the cars.

Also no one could possibly think axle rating are gvwr/2, that's why the sticker exists, it tells you what they are, I already covered that earlier too. As for hoping others will learn.... You've not really showed anything, you've said some stuff, which I've shown to be wrong...with links from the people that actually create the limits, then you call them, and me wrong, and come up with some strange story about how what you're saying is right, and the manufacturer is wrong. I've asked you a few times to show me/us how I'm wrong, but you haven't. Show me how you can go over the rear axle rating and stay under the gvwr, use numbers do the math, show me. Show me some literature from ram saying you can go over gvwr, , show me literature from them saying payload is calculated by axle ratings, show me? You talk a lot, but you've been disproven each time, and each time you don't seem to have any citations on where your data comes from. Facts aren't facts just because you really want them to be, facts are in the citations and links I provided to you
 
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yillbs

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Ram says what the GVWR is, and they say what the payload is....so follow it.

Just like my boat.....

The coast guard has a formula for determining max hp on any boat under 20' long. Exceed that, and you can get a big ticket, just like exceeding GVWR.

NOW, the boat manufacturer can put any number on the ratings sticker they want, even if it is LOWER, as long as they do not exceed the rating per the formula.

When I got my boat, it was rated for 200 hp....and by the formula, it could have been rated for as high as 220 hp, but no one makes a 220 hp motor.

Now, when too many people were buying the smaller boat with the higher hp to go fast (75+ mph), they decided to derate the hull to 150 hp (with no changes in construction that required lowering it), to force people who wanted to go fast to spend more on a bigger boat & motor. This is perfectly legal for them to do. They did it, and got so much flack over it from consumers, that 2 yrs later, they bumped the rating back up to 175 hp. Still less than 200+ hp it could handle, but it appeased more people and reached a happy medium for all.


Now, according to your logic, I could put a 220 hp motor on the newer hull, even tho it is only rated for a 175, and because the formula says so, I can run it.....but that is wrong. You can not exceed the rating plate, which is determined by the manufacturer, no matter if the hull can handle it or not.



And in the previous post...you forgot rim ratings.....the factory steel rims were the limiting factor on the 97 dually ctd I had, not the tires or axles.

Your boat analogy is good, simply don't go over the gvwr and everything is perfectly fine
 
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Totesmygoats

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No surprise, even explained to you, you still don't get it. As for your revisiting payload;

Are you kidding me, you went on about all of that because of the way you think they calculate gvwr? All I said was from the beginning you have to stay under the gvwr, doesn't matter what the payload is, the gvwr is all that matters. You literally just agreed with me, ffs.

No, we went through all that because you said payload isn't a thing nor exist on stickers, but because you got 100% proven wrong on that you decided to try and pick apart something else I said. You were also 100% wrong on that too, you just don't know when to stop.

And once more, cargo capacity is listed on a sticker, not the pr buzzword /"Payload"

And again, trying to pretend you're right because the sticker says "cargo" not "payload" is called a semantics argument, because they are one in the same. It's stupid, and what people who have can't admit they are wrong do.

A lot of the rest of your posts are typical red hearing crap, and you're currently trying to move the goal posts on your statement as well, so I'm going to it here again;

You have to keep in mind payload isn't real. Payload is a PR number used to tell customers how much they can haul in the bed of the pickup.
 

yillbs

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No surprise, even explained to you, you still don't get it. As for your revisiting payload;



No, we went through all that because you said payload isn't a thing nor exist on stickers, but because you got 100% proven wrong on that you decided to try and pick apart something else I said. You were also 100% wrong on that too, you just don't know when to stop.



And again, trying to pretend you're right because the sticker says "cargo" not "payload" is called a semantics argument, because they are one in the same. It's stupid, and what people who have can't admit they are wrong do.

A lot of the rest of your posts are typical red hearing crap, and you're currently trying to move the goal posts on your statement as well, so I'm going to it here again;

okay, we can agree to disagree, i've proven im right, you, have not. Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy that says GVWR essentially doesn't matter you should only focus on payload. noob. Have a good weekend.
 

Jimmy07

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To determine GVWR manufacturers take axle and tire load ratings, they then determine payload values based on those in certain configurations. Specifically they are looking at worst case scenarios. Once they have that payload value they determine GVWR. I don't understand what other way you could have possibly thought this was done. :idiot:


Good day sir /sarcasm
Nope. They use whatever numbers will keep them in certain vehicle classes, DOT regs, under commercial vehicle classes, vehicle registrations, and over or under the weight where they have to provide EPA fuel mileage numbers. Otherwise they would just add the front and rear axle weight ratings together and call that the gvwr.
 

TRCM

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This is the most asinine thing I've heard yet. You show me one vehicle where the GVWR is more than the GAWR

Well, if ya take the previous pics, they show:

front GAWR 3700
rear GAWR 3900
GVWR 6350

So, to be over the GAWR and under the GVWR, you have to do a wheelie or stand the truck up on end so all the weight is on the rear axle.....but it can be done.



sort of......................
 

Totesmygoats

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Nope. They use whatever numbers will keep them in certain vehicle classes, DOT regs, under commercial vehicle classes, vehicle registrations, and over or under the weight where they have to provide EPA fuel mileage numbers. Otherwise they would just add the front and rear axle weight ratings together and call that the gvwr.

Thanks for further proving my point. You can't do that because you could far, far too easily be under GVWR while overloading an axle.


This is the most asinine thing I've heard yet. You show me one vehicle where the GVWR is more than the GAWR

Empty your fuel tank and fill your bed till your at GVWR. Congrats, you're over GRAWR, or, as a lot of people do, pull the bed and put an aluminum flatbed, same thing.

It's only asinine because you don't have the capacity to look at the whole picture.



You guys are way, way off the point here, which was payload is not a "made up" thing like the person I was replying to said. And payload does not come from GVWR, it's the other way around. If you would like to enter the discussion, at least follow it.
 

Totesmygoats

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okay, we can agree to disagree, i've proven im right, you, have not. Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy that says GVWR essentially doesn't matter you should only focus on payload. noob. Have a good weekend.

This is called a straw man argument. I never said that. This is not subjective, this is the way the ratings are determined.

You haven't even said how you believe GVWR is determined, let alone "proved" anything. And you certainly did not "prove" that the stickers that have payload on them do not... That would literally be impossible since it's an objective fact.

But tell yourself whatever you need to to feel warm and fuzzy.
 

sandawilliams

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This is called a straw man argument. I never said that. This is not subjective, this is the way the ratings are determined.

You haven't even said how you believe GVWR is determined, let alone "proved" anything. And you certainly did not "prove" that the stickers that have payload on them do not... That would literally be impossible since it's an objective fact.

But tell yourself whatever you need to to feel warm and fuzzy.

You two have sure got your panties in a bunch.
 

Jimmy07

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Empty your fuel tank and fill your bed till your at GVWR. Congrats, you're over GRAWR

Ok, we'll do my truck. 2017 ram 2500 tradesman, crew cab, short bed, 4x4, full 31 gallon tank.
GVWR-10,000
Base weight-6822
Payload-3178
Steer wheel-3921
Drive wheel-2901
FAWR-5500
RAWR-6500
Now let's empty the gas tank (I'm using 6.3 lbs per gallon). That's ~196lbs. Now obviously that weight is distributed between both axles, so I'm gonna go 50/50 between the two...98lbs on each axle.
So first off, payload increases by that weight 3178+196=3374
Weight on rear axle decreases by 1/2 that weight 2901-98=2803
Now add payload in the bed 3374+2803=6177
That's 323lbs UNDER the 6500 GRAWR
 

Totesmygoats

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Ok, we'll do my truck. 2017 ram 2500 tradesman, crew cab, short bed, 4x4, full 31 gallon tank.
GVWR-10,000
Base weight-6822
Payload-3178
Steer wheel-3921
Drive wheel-2901
FAWR-5500
RAWR-6500
Now let's empty the gas tank (I'm using 6.3 lbs per gallon). That's ~196lbs. Now obviously that weight is distributed between both axles, so I'm gonna go 50/50 between the two...98lbs on each axle.
So first off, payload increases by that weight 3178+196=3374
Weight on rear axle decreases by 1/2 that weight 2901-98=2803
Now add payload in the bed 3374+2803=6177
That's 323lbs UNDER the 6500 GRAWR

You left out the possibility of leverage for the payload. It's also a hell of a lot easier in a 1500 over your 2500. But all this is moot, the point here is it's very possible, and that's all it needs to be to not be "asinine"

Twice moot because, again, it wasn't even the point of the post, and it has zero bearing on the correctness of the main points. If you would like to discuss the fact that payload is not "made up" or how GVWR is determined, I'll do that, but this is only a pointless tangent distracting from the actual point.
 

yillbs

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You left out the possibility of leverage for the payload. It's also a hell of a lot easier in a 1500 over your 2500. But all this is moot, the point here is it's very possible, and that's all it needs to be to not be "asinine"

Twice moot because, again, it wasn't even the point of the post, and it has zero bearing on the correctness of the main points. If you would like to discuss the fact that payload is not "made up" or how GVWR is determined, I'll do that, but this is only a pointless tangent distracting from the actual point.

You mean -Exactly- like you did? you took one thing from everything I said, thought you were right, and wanted to go on and on and on about how I was wrong, I showed you I was right, then you started saying a bunch of other " what if " scenarios, which was silly to begin with. You've said so much BS now, others called you out on it, and instead of arguing the point, which agreed, is moot, you go back to " payload is not made up ", GVWR is not determined by payload, the manufacturer says it, the owners manual says it, the website says it, you're just unable to comprehend it. That's cool, but so far literally nothing you've said has been correct, and now it's just confusing AF because of all the gibberish you added.

my truck is a 1500.

2016 ram 1500 crew cab 4x4
32 gallon fuel tank, 6.3 pounds per gallon , that's 200 pounds or so, that's 100 pounds on the rear axle.
FAWR - 3900
RAWR - 3900
GVWR - 6900
TRuck base weight - 5400
Drive wheel - 2260


If you remove fuel from the truck, we'll remove 100 pounds from the base weight, so 5300 pounds, if i load up my payload at MAX which is 1500 pounds over the REAR axle, that puts me at 6800 pounds, and that also puts my rear axle weight at 3760 still under my RAWR, now.. i'll need fuel to ******* move the truck, so i'll add the 100 pounds back to my GVWR, im now at or over my VWR and still under my RAWR with a full payload. So again, you can't do what you are suggesting you can do, not sure why you keep saying it, when the math says otherwise.

It's also worth pointing out, the GVWR already takes into account a full tank of gas, AND the passenger, so removing them does absolutely no good, you see, manufacturers know someone needs to be IN the truck, and they know the truck has to move.. which is why they do the bare minimum, which is also how they manage to say "payload". Payload defines how much something weighs, not how much something CAN weigh, that's just basic english.
 

Totesmygoats

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You mean -Exactly- like you did? you took one thing from everything I said, thought you were right, and wanted to go on and on and on about how I was wrong,

I responded to the relevant portion of your reply, because most of what you reply with is not relevant to the discussion and just taking things off track. Just like you're doing now. You continually say that I said thing's I didn't, like "you can ignore GVWR" which I never said.

you go back to " payload is not made up ".

Yes, because that is the ENTIRE point of my reply to you.

you go back to GVWR is not determined by payload,

This is called supporting information. It's not the point of the post, it was brought up to help you understand that payload is not made up.

the manufacturer says it, the owners manual says it, the website says it, you're just unable to comprehend it.

I comprehend what it says fine, As I already explained to you, it is a derivative expression and as such technically accurate so long as each portion is considered true. But you decided to claim payload was "fake" and in doing so you made what was accurate no longer accurate because of your lack of understanding.



As to your math, 2160 (BW -100) + 1700 (P +200) = 3860, basically the axle limit, but like I said, you are forgetting or do not understand leverage. Load a pallet on your truck and you will have 250# of leverage put on the rear axle.


I also find this whole line of discussion hilarious, because you don't even realize you are literally proving my point. The whole reason I made the comment about it being possible to stay in GVWR while overloading the axle was meant to highlight that GVWR is determined by payload, and not the other way around. It is literally so hard to do because the manufacturer was so careful in determining payload. you have to use an absolute worst case scenario. If GVWR was determined other ways, it would be 100x easier for these scenarios to be presented. To find GVWR in this case the manufacturer literally went through the scenarios I am presenting to you to determine payload and limit the possibility of overloading the truck while using the legal and on the sticker payload numbers they determined. Which they then used to find GVWR.



Again, if you "know so much" about this. Then how was the GVWR of your truck determined, second time I have asked, without a peep from you.
 
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