Cummins programmers - boost fooling?

This is just a general technical discussion on increasing boost levels and such.

I have an '01 24V, Edge Juice w/Attitude. In the wiring, it had a "T" for the map sensor, which allowed the Edge to 'fool' the ECU, which works. There's no boost control (PSI-wise) with the electronics, so that is controlled by a boost elbow.

I have one, and it's set to not allow the WG to see boost pressure from the compressor. However, I only see ~31-32psi max; this is mainly due to stock injectors.

If I remove the "T" and connect the truck's harness back to the MAP sensor, I'll get an overboost code(s) above 23-24psi:

P0234 (M) Turbo Boost Limit Exceeded Problem detected in turbocharger wastegate.
P0236 (M) Map Sensor Too High Too Long Problem detected in turbocharger wastegate.

Comparing this to a 2gen Quadzilla Adrenaline, is this also the case? By that, I mean, does the Quad also "T" into the MAP harness and do internal boost fooling?

I know Quad sells boost foolers, but I can't imagine that these are a required item to use in conjunction with the Quad; I assume these are more for those without programmers?

Just thinking out loud, here.

Subscribed

^^^ what he said
Ch

Sent from my DROID RAZR

Ok... The whole reason for the boost fooler is to limit the maximum voltage to the ECM so it can't throw the P0234 code. Now why? Well you have to remember that when Cummins wrote the software they never expected the engine to be used above stock rate. So the tables inside the EPROM only go up to 20 PSI or so. Beyond that there just isn't any data to be had. So this is where the wire tapped VP44 boxes come in. They can see the actual boost pressure and extend the fuel map beyond the stock table and calculate what should be happening. But at the same time the feed to the ECM is regulated to show 19-20 PSI at max boost so the ECM continues feeding max values to a enhancement box and that box now calculated on top of that with the extended fuel map.

Make sense?

This is why a wire tapped ehancement box produces more power than a programmer. Because once again your limited to the table limits of the ECM and what its checksums can handle. So with a wire tap box you can modify the signal right at the VP44 and get as much as possible out of it. Where programmer has to live within the limits of the ECM.

Something to keep in mind is that more boost doesn't always mean more power/better fuel mileage ie stock trucks

Stangshcky12 said:

Something to keep in mind is that more boost doesn't always mean more power/better fuel mileage ie stock trucks

Click to expand...

More boost just means cooler EGT's that's all...

As for economy you want to run boost as low as possible for maximum MPG's. Like myself I aim for about 2-3 PSI cruising which gives about 20-22 MPG roughly. More boost means more fuel delievered injectors are the limiting factor of how much fuel is delievered.

As for power (HP/TQ) boost will not produce power unless you have the fuel to back it up. Too much fuel and you'll have lots of black smoke and high EGT's.

Any boost levels on a stock charger(HX35 or HY35) above about 35psi means the air is not going to be cooled and is going to be hot instead as you are running the turbos out of map.

OP's truck is a 01 6spd truck that only makes 31-32 so it should have either a HX35/9cm exhaust or a HX35/12cm exhaust as both were used on the sticks.Since the fueling box he is using is only this amount of boost I would say he either has a box issue or an issue with the wastegate being hung open which is a known problem.

I totally understand the theory of what boost/fuel does for power-wise, etc. I didn't really word the original post properly. It was more so a thought dump from a conversation I was having with another member.

I've built many high-hp turbo cars in the past, and have learned in the past 3 yrs of diesel ownership, how OPPOSITE the theories/functions are between gas and diesel turbo power.


Per the original post, I've since researched and learned that the QZ does, in fact, do internal boost fooling. A friend that was having low boost issues with his setup (bigger turbo with all supporting mods to back it up).

The issue(s)/concern(s) he was having was that the upgraded parts weren't producing the results expected. It came down to the tune in the QZ; it was the factory programming (1000 flash set), rather than the 2000 or 3000 Beta flashes.

I'm waiting to hear back how the new map download did.


As for "my" issue, pointed out by Uncle Ugly, I will look into the possibility of a WG issue. I know I've even tested my clamping off the WG hose, and saw no changes.. I'll investigate the possibility of a WG stuck open, and research some diagnostic ways to verify.

I would also check the entire Charge air system for leaks since your going to the trouble of making sure no other issues.

I am not a fan of QuadZilla parts at all as they are well known for problems and have been for years,then throw in the fact that their warranty department sucks they will never see any money of mine.

On our 500hp 24v we run a Edge Attitude for daily driving and when we want to dyno it it uses a Edge EZ set to the highest level for timing and a TST Powermax3 Comp.There is no combination of boxes yet that have eclipsed the TST PM3 Comp/Edge EZ for pure power.

I love the QAD , but never had anything to compare it to . I just recently updated to the ADR2001 tune from the ADDR1001 ... WOW big difference . The 2k tune is more aggressive and seems to gell better with my mods . And has a wider power setting 0-12 now .

I did try a beta tune 3k .. not happy with that one as it was not smooth in higher RPM

Overall I am happy with my QAD , love the PV2 controller as it monitors everything I need to be watching .

Not my material but great info on the QAD

Quadzilla Adrenaline with Pulse 101

Parameters Monitored: with additional User Defined Warnings on all parameters:

EGT
Boost
Transmission Temp
Coolant Temp
Fuel Pressure
RPM
MPH
Corrected MPH
ECM Voltage
Back-down %
TPS%
IAT
Fuel Temperature
Power Level
Oil Pressure*
Engine Load%

User Defined De-fuel Settings:

EGT
Boost
Transmission Temp
Coolant
Fuel Pressure

User Controlled Features:

Turbo Timer (select time or EGT based, control desired run-time or EGT for shut-off)

Warm Up (select coolant temperature at which the Adrenaline starts adding power)

High Idle Delay (select amount of time before high idle activates in an idle state)


Min/Max Recording Log for:

EGT
Boost
Transmission Temp
Coolant Temp
Fuel Pressure
RPM
MPH
Corrected MPH
ECM Voltage
Back-down %
TPS%
IAT
Fuel Temperature
Power Level
Oil Pressure*
Engine Load %


Adjustments:
tuning options including:

Timing Advance
Can Bus Fueling
Pump Stretch Fueling
Throttle Response options.

Pump Stretch.

This will make the biggest difference in overall power and smoke. This is the amount of time the injector is actually opened and spraying fuel into the cylinder. I have this set pretty low on the 1000 tune that I sent you. The COMP file is set to 1800. More than 1800 creates more torque and a lot more smoke but, actually makes less power on the upper end based on all the trucks I have had on the dyno. This is where the COMP file is set to. Feel free to run it to 2400 anytime you want lots of low end power and smoke but, realize you are giving power up on the top.

This does not mean you will get this amount of fuel all the time. There is a map, in percentages based off of this number as the maximum. Beyond that the map is also scaled by the TPS. So even if the map commands 100% but, you are at 50% throttle you will be getting 50% of the max stretch. If the map calls for 25% and you are at 50% TPS you will be getting 12.5% of the max stretch.


TPS MIN. For both CAN and Pump fueling.

This allows you to make the throttle lighter or more responsive. Basically it gives you a fudge factor that allows you to get a minimum amount of the max fuel stretch all the time. If you set this to 10% you will never get less than 10% of the fuel map. So if the map calls for 100% (1800) but, you are at 5% throttle you would normally get 5% of the map. If you set this parameter to 10% you will get 10% even though the mapping algorithm calls for 5%.

You have to be somewhat careful with this or you will be fueling way too much at light throttle. This is set to 0% on the tune I sent out.


TPS MAX. Both CAN and Pump Stretch.

This allows you to determine what throttle position you will see max fueling at. It also re-scales the entire map based on what you select. This is set to 100% on tunes I sent out. This means that you will not get 100% of the map unless you are at 100% TPS. If you set this at 80% TPS that means you will get 100% of the fueling at 80% TPS. It also means that 80%=100% and the map is scaled between 0% and 80% but, on a 0-100 scale. In other words the map moves in increments of .8% instead of 1%.

This can be really useful for those that drive light but, want power on tap earlier in the pedal but, not necessarily right off idle.


Timing MAX

Sort of goes without saying. 0 means we do not add any timing. 10deg means if the map calls for 100% you will get 10deg added over stock.

I never go over 7.5%. In my opinion that is more than plenty. If you are going for only mileage and are going to be easy you can use 10 deg and it should be great for mileage. The problem is that under much boost it could easily cause headgasket damage.


Boost Scaling.

This function is more of a smoothing function of the map. There are 20 positions that this function controls. Think of it at columns. Until boost equals a certain amount, then it is in a certain column. It takes more or less boost to move to different columns.

So if you set this to 20, then each column is changed by 1psi. If you scale it to 40psi then every 2psi it changes.

While this can make things more or less responsive or smooth it out slightly it does not make huge differences because not necessarily every column is more or less aggressive than the next. There have been maps in the past and there will be maps in the future where they will be more boost reliant. For now we do not rely on boost that much other than as this scaling function.
-Thanks To RacerRon

--------------------------------
TIPS:

Things that will make more smoke:
Lowering the Boost scale down
Lowering TPS MIN on both CAN and for the PUMP
Lowering TPS MAX on both CAN and PUMP
Raising MAX PUMP STRETCH
Lowering MAX TIMING
Lowering TIMING SCALE

All those things in one way or another will make more smoke. Raising the pump stretch is the simplest way to do it.

Stacking With a Timing Module:
You can set the MAX timing advance to 0 or you can set the timing scaling to 0%.
Either way you get 0 timing.

lower the scaling, the softer the curve:
If you turn the MAX up, and the curve down, you will get more timing down low then the factory settings with the MAX timing ending up about the same.
If you turn the max up to 10deg MAP. and then scale it by 80% you will end up with 2.4 deg advance in that same exact map spot and a MAX of 8deg at WOT.
100% scaling gives you the most aggressive map for a given MAX timing value.

Now I just need to find out where to start tweaking with my settings on the 2000 tune

so, sounds like your diggin' the 2000 tune?

Yes sir , thanks Rick

I am going to adjust some things an see what comes of it .

ramhunter9 said:

Yes sir , thanks Rick

I am going to adjust some things an see what comes of it .

Click to expand...

No problemo!

Feel a dramatic difference over the 1001 tune?

Hell yes , but trying to figure the adjustments on TPS , pump stretch and timing ect..

What works best for all low end power with great throttle response and smoke .. I got some playing to do