2017 3/4-Ton Work Truck Challenge

15BlueStreak · Mar 16, 2017

Danno said:
I don't get what your saying, a Ford 9N is a tractor and an Altima is a car. We are talking about comparing 3/4 ton trucks with gas engines, not a 3/4 ton vs a supercar.

When was a lifetime warranty offered other than extended warranty Maxcare Lifetime which can still be purchased?

The good news that the ram did have the highest speed on the Ike test, along with the slowest run time.

Advance 6.4 bolted to a crappy transmission doesn't fix the issue of a decade old 50hp less 6.0 walked all over it. Either it wins or it loses, blame the transmission but if it can't put the power to the ground its useless....

Didn't seem to have issues in the power wagon on the Ike.

2016 Ram Power Wagon Ike Gauntlet Towing Test: Corrected - The Fast Lane Truck

Yeah the power wagon test was nice. No limiting of the truck most likely due to a lighter weight trailer. Either way it did not struggle one bit really compared to any other gas truck pulling the weight. Once into second gear in this truck I think its okay. Its just that big step from 1-2 like everyone states it really stinks. When pulling my 8500lb tt and shifting into 2 it almost bogs down. Once it gets back up to proper rpm range its happy again.

68PowerWagon · Mar 16, 2017

ronheater70 said:
Old Ford 9n Farm tractor can pull a hay wagon better than my Altima which out powers it by 4:1..

Aaaah... I had an old 9N. Those things just don't die! What did they have... around 30hp? Those things are great for an old gas tractor.

drittal · Mar 16, 2017

Because the power wagon has **** for tow/haul ratings.

The problem is the 1-2 gap. 2nd is too tall and far away from 1st. Towing heavy (in other words more than a PW is rated to tow) it shifts down from 2nd to 1st and climbs right back to 5k but can't hold 2nd. To prevent excessive shifting and transmission damaging heat that comes with it the engineers put in the the gear hold feature to keep the rpm down, prevent excessive shifting, and possible transmission damage.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

stembridge · Mar 16, 2017

68PowerWagon said:
Aaaah... I had an old 9N. Those things just don't die! What did they have... around 30hp? Those things are great for an old gas tractor.

I have a '50 8N, 25 HP when new. I could pull any modern 25-30 horse front-wheel-assist tractor all over my farm with it. Torque and weight where you need it make all the difference.

es

SouthTexan · Mar 16, 2017

Danno said:
The good news that the ram did have the highest speed on the Ike test, along with the slowest run time.

And it beat the 6.0L in almost all of other performance test hauling and empty. You seam to purposelessly forget that so I just wanted to make sure you remember.

Danno said:
Advance 6.4 bolted to a crappy transmission doesn't fix the issue of a decade old 50hp less 6.0 walked all over it.

And the better advanced 6L90 bolted to a crappy 6.0L doesn't fix the issue that the much taller geared 6.4L walked all over it in the 0-60 empty, 0-60 loaded, 1/4 mile empty, 1/4 mile loaded, 7.2% hill climb 0-40 empty, 7.2% hill climb 0-40 loaded, 7.2% hill climb 1/4 mile empty, 7.2% hill climb 1/4 mile loaded, Davis damn 1/2 mile loaded, Davis Dam top speed, and last but not least the Eisenhower Pass top speed

Danno said:
Either it wins or it loses, blame the transmission but if it can't put the power to the ground its useless....

You are right, it either wins or looses, and the GM 6.0L lost to the Ram 6.4L in all 11 of the performance tests above.

Danno said:
Didn't seem to have issues in the power wagon on the Ike.

Well, no **** Sherlock! That is because the transmission didn't put the truck in limp mode. That is the only way that the GM 6.0L can beat the Ram 6.4L.

mtofell · Mar 16, 2017

A bit off the main topic but relevant to the argument that has ensued - I have the 3.73 6.4 Hemi 4X4 and tow an 11K 5th wheel. I'm out west with lots of hills and yes the 1-2 tranny gear spacing sucks. I've been one of the louder complainers and am generally not happy with it.

That being said I've learned to live and drive with it. Just last weekend coming home from camping I headed up a ramp to a 65MPH interstate. I'd guess the incline was 4% but just guessing. Making a left turn from under the freeway onto the ramp I was at a dead stop. Shifting manually I hammered out 1st gear to about 5000RPM then went for 2nd and had the annoying lag but it rebounded quickly. I was able to blend into traffic nicely at over 55MPH and it's just a normal length ramp (not long, not short). Point being yes the tranny and the gears suck but it's not like you're going to die driving the truck even while towing heavy.

90% of the problems and annoyances with the 66rfe/Hemi go away when manually shifting. My biggest annoyance towing my load is on steeper grades when I just can't hold 2nd and the tranny stupidly bounces back and forth between 1st and 2nd. It sounds like there is some feature built in to stop that from causing damage but I've honestly never gotten that far. I just lock it in first and roll along at 35MPH until I'm at a point where I can hold 2nd.

Annoying? Of course. Should a modern $40K truck do this? Probably not. Does it make me want to sell my truck? Yes, at times. Does it mean it's inferior to the other trucks and I'm sorry I bought it? Nope.

No truck is perfect and there is always some test that can exploit its weaknesses. These threads remind me of of politics and the media these days. One thing is taken out of the context of an entire story and made into it's own story just to validate an agenda. A couple decades ago people had pride and cared about being objective. ****, I'm starting to sound like a cranky old guy.

ronheater70 · Mar 17, 2017

Just a different view

Danno said:
I don't get what your saying, a Ford 9N is a tractor and an Altima is a car. We are talking about comparing 3/4 ton trucks with gas engines, not a 3/4 ton vs a supercar.

When was a lifetime warranty offered other than extended warranty Maxcare Lifetime which can still be purchased?

The good news that the ram did have the highest speed on the Ike test, along with the slowest run time.

Advance 6.4 bolted to a crappy transmission doesn't fix the issue of a decade old 50hp less 6.0 walked all over it. Either it wins or it loses, blame the transmission but if it can't put the power to the ground its useless....

2016 Ram Power Wagon Ike Gauntlet Towing Test: Corrected - The Fast Lane Truck

It's simple really.. the Ford Tractor will simply out tow my Altima, even though the altima is far more advanced.. The ultimo however wears many more hats than the tractor and is more useful because of it. IF the only purpose was to judge a truck on something like the IKE, and it was bought for such, then I suppose that would be a disappointment.. however seeing as how it performs other duties admirably, maybe it's simply not that big of a deal to some folks and they live with an admitted shortcoming in one area while enjoying other aspects of the truck.. this was evident by the results of the test in which it won far more categories,

RainDesert · Mar 17, 2017

mtofell said:
A bit off the main topic but relevant to the argument that has ensued - I have the 3.73 6.4 Hemi 4X4 and tow an 11K 5th wheel. I'm out west with lots of hills and yes the 1-2 tranny gear spacing sucks. I've been one of the louder complainers and am generally not happy with it.

That being said I've learned to live and drive with it. Just last weekend coming home from camping I headed up a ramp to a 65MPH interstate. I'd guess the incline was 4% but just guessing. Making a left turn from under the freeway onto the ramp I was at a dead stop. Shifting manually I hammered out 1st gear to about 5000RPM then went for 2nd and had the annoying lag but it rebounded quickly. I was able to blend into traffic nicely at over 55MPH and it's just a normal length ramp (not long, not short). Point being yes the tranny and the gears suck but it's not like you're going to die driving the truck even while towing heavy.

90% of the problems and annoyances with the 66rfe/Hemi go away when manually shifting. My biggest annoyance towing my load is on steeper grades when I just can't hold 2nd and the tranny stupidly bounces back and forth between 1st and 2nd. It sounds like there is some feature built in to stop that from causing damage but I've honestly never gotten that far. I just lock it in first and roll along at 35MPH until I'm at a point where I can hold 2nd.

Annoying? Of course. Should a modern $40K truck do this? Probably not. Does it make me want to sell my truck? Yes, at times. Does it mean it's inferior to the other trucks and I'm sorry I bought it? Nope.

No truck is perfect and there is always some test that can exploit its weaknesses. These threads remind me of of politics and the media these days. One thing is taken out of the context of an entire story and made into it's own story just to validate an agenda. A couple decades ago people had pride and cared about being objective. ****, I'm starting to sound like a cranky old guy.

This is the same type of report for the Ford 6.2 3.73 geared. The 4.30 in the Ford help tremendously. Do you think the 4.10 would make the difference for holding 2nd? Another question about the tranny, since manual mode makes a big difference, can a custom tune do the same?

SouthTexan · Mar 17, 2017

RainDesert said:
This is the same type of report of the Ford 6.2 3.73 geared. The 4.30 in the Ford help tremendously.

I will attest to that. There is a HUGE difference between the Ford SD 6.2L with a 3.73 rear end the 4.30 rear end from the ones I have driven. However, Ford dealers like Ram dealers mainly only have the 3.73 on the lots. The 4.30's usually have to be special ordered.

coobie · Mar 17, 2017

Danno said:
I don't get what your saying, a Ford 9N is a tractor and an Altima is a car. We are talking about comparing 3/4 ton trucks with gas engines, not a 3/4 ton vs a supercar.

When was a lifetime warranty offered other than extended warranty Maxcare Lifetime which can still be purchased?

The good news that the ram did have the highest speed on the Ike test, along with the slowest run time.

Advance 6.4 bolted to a crappy transmission doesn't fix the issue of a decade old 50hp less 6.0 walked all over it. Either it wins or it loses, blame the transmission but if it can't put the power to the ground its useless....

Didn't seem to have issues in the power wagon on the Ike.

2016 Ram Power Wagon Ike Gauntlet Towing Test: Corrected - The Fast Lane Truck

"> I bet you get tired of looking in the mirror everyday and keep telling yourself how stupid you really sound. :signs75:

wyo2track · Mar 17, 2017

mtofell said:
A bit off the main topic but relevant to the argument that has ensued - I have the 3.73 6.4 Hemi 4X4 and tow an 11K 5th wheel. I'm out west with lots of hills and yes the 1-2 tranny gear spacing sucks. I've been one of

That being said I've learned to live and drive with it. Just last weekend coming home from camping I headed up a ramp to a 65MPH interstate. I'd guess the incline was 4% but just guessing. Making a left turn from under the freeway onto the ramp I was at a dead stop. Shifting manually I hammered out 1st gear to about 5000RPM then went for 2nd and had the annoying lag but it rebounded quickly. I was able to blend into traffic nicely at over 55MPH and it's just a normal length ramp (not long, not short). Point being yes the tranny and the gears suck but it's not like you're going to die driving the truck even while towing heavy.

90% of the problems and annoyances with the 66rfe/Hemi go away when manually shifting.

Love being able to manually shift! I like to run up to around 5300 rpm to keep the shift from 1 to 2 as high in the power band as possible. Seems RAM put the rev limiter right at or before peak horsepower at 5600 which is another little burr under my saddle. Why advertise the 410 hp when I'm never going to be allowed there. Still love my truck though. Just as quiet after 32700 miles and a lot of dirt roads as it was new.

****, I'm starting to sound like a cranky old guy.

Perfectly normal

. ...

mtofell · Mar 17, 2017

RainDesert said:
This is the same type of report for the Ford 6.2 3.73 geared. The 4.30 in the Ford help tremendously. Do you think the 4.10 would make the difference for holding 2nd? Another question about the tranny, since manual mode makes a big difference, can a custom tune do the same?

The 4.10 would probably be a bit better but if I were to re-gear I'd likely go up to either 4.30 or 4.56. I've thought a lot about it and still may do it. A couple guys on here have gone to 4.56 and are super happy with it.

I'm not sure if/what a tranny tune could do. I think the root of the problem is the physical ratios on the tranny. They are borrowed from the 68rfe that goes with the Cummins and are a lot better suited for a diesel with the low end torque. I've got the lifetime warranty so tuners and chips are out for me on big components like the engine and tranny.

All in all this truck does really well for a gasser even with less than ideal tranny ratios and rear end gearing. I can only dream what this engine would do with those two things setup better. Thinking back a couple generations 410HP is just a ridiculous amount of power.

kry226 · Mar 18, 2017

Yup, gears and tiny fuel tank are two of the biggest drawbacks for me with the 6.4 truck.

RainDesert · Mar 18, 2017

Sounds like Ram needs to step up and go through their 6.4 tranny. They should offer the 4.30 also, especially if they keep the tall/high .63 6th gear final drive ratio. Ford is at .69 on the new tranny.
This year Ford finally took a few steps to help its gasser by adding a specific tranny designed for the 6.2 and increased the torque to 430 while lowering the peak rpm for it to 3800(was 4500).
I wish Ram/Ford put as much into improving their V8's as they do trying to out-do each other in the diesel wars.

reloaderguy · Mar 18, 2017

RainDesert said:
Sounds like Ram needs to step up and go through their 6.4 tranny. They should offer the 4.30 also, especially if they keep the tall/high .63 6th gear final drive ratio. Ford is at .69 on the new tranny.
This year Ford finally took a few steps to help its gasser by adding a specific tranny designed for the 6.2 and increased the torque to 430 while lowering the peak rpm for it to 3800(was 4500).
I wish Ram/Ford put as much into improving their V8's as they do trying to out-do each other in the diesel wars.

Lowering peak torque RPM is not an improvement. All Ford did was reduce it's maximum potential by putting in mild cam. I'll take linear torque increase to redline ever day of the week. The longer you look at the 6.4L the more detail you see went into it. The 6.4 is a beast, Ram needs to fix the transmission though, it is the truck's Achilles heel.

RAM_Designs · Mar 18, 2017

gustheram said:
And for the love of God, can we please stop beating this Ike crap. The horse is dead.

Well, he's a troll, so we know the answer to that question.

RainDesert · Mar 18, 2017

reloaderguy said:
Lowering peak torque RPM is not an improvement. All Ford did was reduce it's maximum potential by putting in mild cam. I'll take linear torque increase to redline ever day of the week. The longer you look at the 6.4L the more detail you see went into it. The 6.4 is a beast, Ram needs to fix the transmission though, it is the truck's Achilles heel.

Thanks for the info. I'm here to learn about the 6.4. Over in the Ford Forum, the increased torque at the lower 3800 is very popular though. :shrug:

SouthTexan · Mar 18, 2017

RainDesert said:
Thanks for the info. I'm here to learn about the 6.4. Over in the Ford Forum, the increased torque at the lower 3800 is very popular though.

They are correct, lower peak torque is an improvement because it makes the torque more usable through more gears. It also means you don't have to be at such high rpms to reach peak torque meaning you do not have to hear a screaming engine. Below is the speed that the 4.30 6.2L with its current transmission will hit each rpm. With the 430 lb-ft peak torque being at 3,800 rpm, it allows you to utilize 4th gear at a reasonable speed while you would be travelling to fast to utilize peak torque in 4th if it was at 4,500 rpm.

3,800 rpm
1st--21mph
2nd--38mph
3rd--57mph
4th--76mph
5th--92mph
6th--116mph

4,500 rpm
1st--25mph
2nd--44mph
3rd--68mph
4th--90mph
5th--120mph
6th--150mph

To compare this is the speed when a 4.10 Ram 6.4L 66RFE hits it's peak 429 lb-ft of torque at 4,000 rpm in each gear. These speed will be higher for a 3.73.

4,000 rpm
1st--30mph
2nd--52mph
3rd--68mph
4th--95mph
5th--117mph
6th--152mph

Peak torque at high rpms is for cars meant to go fast, not trucks meant to tow.

Danno · Mar 18, 2017

ronheater70 said:
It's simple really.. the Ford Tractor will simply out tow my Altima, even though the altima is far more advanced.. The ultimo however wears many more hats than the tractor and is more useful because of it. IF the only purpose was to judge a truck on something like the IKE, and it was bought for such, then I suppose that would be a disappointment.. however seeing as how it performs other duties admirably, maybe it's simply not that big of a deal to some folks and they live with an admitted shortcoming in one area while enjoying other aspects of the truck.. this was evident by the results of the test in which it won far more categories,

?? Is a car still being compared to a tractor. Is this about comparing an apple to an apple, a 3/4 ton to a 3/4 ton. This comparison just makes it sound like the 6.4 is far less capable, as it wears other hats but wears none of them well when compared to other 3/4 tons.

drittal said:
Because the power wagon has **** for tow/haul ratings.

The problem is the 1-2 gap. 2nd is too tall and far away from 1st. Towing heavy (in other words more than a PW is rated to tow) it shifts down from 2nd to 1st and climbs right back to 5k but can't hold 2nd. To prevent excessive shifting and transmission damaging heat that comes with it the engineers put in the the gear hold feature to keep the rpm down, prevent excessive shifting, and possible transmission damage.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Then the problem is its capacity is over rated. Can't just point out that its the transmission when there's only one transmission for the 3/4 ton 6.4. Sounds like anything over the 10k capacity is too much weight for it then.

Call it being a troll or whatever but the fact is its not as capable as a 6.0.

South, if I wanted the fastest time 0-60 unloaded, I wouldn't buy a truck. The payload results is what the "only" towing test should have been according to the specs, pretty sad it can't compete with far less powered vehicles when put to the true test.

drittal · Mar 18, 2017

Danno said:
Then the problem is its capacity is over rated. Can't just point out that its the transmission when there's only one transmission for the 3/4 ton 6.4. Sounds like anything over the 10k capacity is too much weight for it then.

Certified capacity to SAE J2807 standards.

If times up the Ike were important then Cummins wouldn't sell as it is the slowest, even slower than the less capable GM with Duramax.

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