Excited new Cummins owner wanting to delete

SouthTexan said:

An Update to this. My buddy said he has put about 43k miles on his 2014 since he deleted it and tuned it with EFIbyRyan. Another plus that he reminded me about was the exhaust brake. With the tune, the exhaust brake stays in the last mode you have it in when you shut off the truck. So if you are one of those that like to keep the exhaust brake on all the time and hate having to press the button on every start up, it is a plus.

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That would be a nice feature.

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I suppose its impractical to find someone who's put 100k deleted miles on a 14 yet. Unfortunately I drive at least 18k miles a year and until this things paid for I can't see building a transmission or replacing the turbo and upgrading injectors.

I think that's who did mine.

I traded my 6.4 in for a diesel, I bought an EDGE juice with attitude, told it was safe to use and wouldn't void warranty. At 18,000 miles, planetary gears went out in tranny. Chrysler wouldn't even discuss covering it. Said if I paid to have transmission replaced and removed tuner I could continue the warranty. Only reason I did is bc the dealership I bought it from offers lifetime powertrain warranty. If I didn't have the warranty I would get it deleted , new exhaust from turbo back, idk if I would tune again after my experience with that. But idk if I just had a bad choice of tuner or bad luck or what. $7000 for the new tranny and I was able to get refund on the edge.

If you EVER have to go back stock and the DEF is bad that was left in the tank, be prepared to fork over thousands to replace the tank, lines, injector and SCR.

FWIW on the Ultra debate.... original it was only canned tunes, for about a year or so, only recently (like 4-6 months at best) has the Warp tuning option come about... so chances are you just inquired about it before they added it. I only know this because ive been watching it like a hawk lol. I'm trying to figure out how to get smokeless, delete tune lol.

I'm sure the EFI trucks run great, but I have yet to see one that doesn't smoke like a chimney on the street tunes. And they seem to still blow too much smoke for me on the light tow tunes.

Maybe its wishful thinking to get a canned tune that doesn't smoke, but I don't like the idea of local joe bob trying to tune my ~10k dollar motor. Id rather have a "big shot" do it.

I think the platform is still too new, its hard to find examples as stated earlier. People are just now starting to do custom tunes on the raceme so we will see. The canned tunes look to be pretty clean on the lower settings, the best ive seen so far.

I'm starting to think that emissions tuning might be the way to go, I just hate the act of actually putting the DEF in the tank lol. And knowing that one day, it will all go bad and ill be forced to shell twice as much as a 2nd gen kit just to replace it.

The EFIbyRyan on my friends 2014 is pretty clean as far as black smoke in normal driving conditions for all tunes. The +30 hp tune doesn't put out any smoke even when you get on it. The +90 hp you may get a small puff of black smoke if you get on it, but it is not that much and it quickly clears out. The higher +140 hp and +200 hp tunes smoke quit a bit though.

yea, I was liking the 90 tune but then I saw one online that claimed to be on the 90 smoking pretty bad. But I guess theres no telling, he could have been lying or doing some nonsense to make it smoke.

I hate the rolling coal crap, it makes me want to stay in a gas truck. But since I want to run 37s on a DD truck, a 1/2 ton of any kind doesn't really make much sense. Plus driving a diesel is just fun.

I realize that its probably pretty hard to get aggressive on the tuning with a VGT setup without getting some smoke, but I'm just waiting to see what happens. On that same token, it makes me wonder about running those big tunes with emissions in place. As much as smoke as those 200 tunes produce, that has to be a lot of soot coming through the system? Doesn't seem good lol

Based on my experience with older tuned diesels (pre-emmissions crap) I'm guessing for all those tunes "90HP","200HP" etc. they largest variable changing is the fueling......what they can't easily address is the increasing amount of airflow required to burn that increasing fuel.

My guess is most of the folks smoking on those tunes are running stock turbos with possibly a bolt on intake. While the bolt on helps a bit, without addressing the turbo capacity and ability to spool faster there will usually be a lag in getting enough air (if ever) into the engine to burn all the extra fuel being shoved in there. Rolling coal is just wasted unburnt fuel. Only way to burn that fuel and make more power is to get more air in there and quickly.

Assuming all other systems are working correctly/as intended that initial puff of smoke is most likely due to the fuel volume increasing quicker than the turbo is spooling etc.

Every time I increased my fueling I was always increasing my intake needs to avoid smoke and high EGTs. First a new wheel, then larger turbo and tubes etc.

That is why canned tunes can be very tough to get smokeless for all but the most mild of tunes. Even identical trucks can produce different behavior on the same canned tunes.

Admittedly I am not as familiar with the Cummins as I am with others so I'm sure ST et al can correct me if I am wrong, but the basic operating process is the same on any diesel regarding air and fuel.

SilverSurfer15 said:

yea, I was liking the 90 tune but then I saw one online that claimed to be on the 90 smoking pretty bad. But I guess theres no telling, he could have been lying or doing some nonsense to make it smoke.

I hate the rolling coal crap, it makes me want to stay in a gas truck. But since I want to run 37s on a DD truck, a 1/2 ton of any kind doesn't really make much sense. Plus driving a diesel is just fun.

I realize that its probably pretty hard to get aggressive on the tuning with a VGT setup without getting some smoke, but I'm just waiting to see what happens. On that same token, it makes me wonder about running those big tunes with emissions in place. As much as smoke as those 200 tunes produce, that has to be a lot of soot coming through the system? Doesn't seem good lol

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I definitely regen more with the hotter tunes on my EDGE. Especially if I alter the low boost fueling torque management. It went from once every 90-120 miles to once every 40-70 miles. It would not be that bad if they would find a way to just keep the EGR from working and made the SCR/DEF more aggressive to remove the NOx. I wouldn't mind using more DEF if it meant that the EGR wasn't dumping exhaust into my intake creating even more soot.


The HUEI pump set up like on my father in laws 6.0L PSD, it doesn't have too many injection events to add fuel for more power. Add the fact that the fuel was at much lower pressure and you are just blowing black smoke of unburned fuel until the turbo builds enough boost to keep up with the large amount of fuel being added.

With the injectors of today's diesels like common rail you have the ability to have more injection events in a single stroke, much higher fuel rail pressures, and the ability to ramp up the amount of fuel being injected during the combustion stroke allowing more fuel to be burned completley. You can set these engines up to not smoke with some big power if you know what you are doing. Of course as with everything, it has its limits with stock components.

yea GDE does that on the Ecodiesel trucks, they disable the EGR entirely but keep everything else in tact. They also take out all of mileage and speed restrictions for the lame things like bad def quality. So it will continue to drive as normal, and wont shut down on you. I think they still leave on the major codes, to let you know if the system is busted or not. I don't actually have one so don't know, but Ive read about it.

Allegedly they were working on some cummins thing similar to that, but ive never seen anything about it officially.

SilverSurfer15 said:

FWIW on the Ultra debate.... original it was only canned tunes, for about a year or so, only recently (like 4-6 months at best) has the Warp tuning option come about... so chances are you just inquired about it before they added it. I only know this because ive been watching it like a hawk lol. I'm trying to figure out how to get smokeless, delete tune lol.

I'm sure the EFI trucks run great, but I have yet to see one that doesn't smoke like a chimney on the street tunes. And they seem to still blow too much smoke for me on the light tow tunes.

Maybe its wishful thinking to get a canned tune that doesn't smoke, but I don't like the idea of local joe bob trying to tune my ~10k dollar motor. Id rather have a "big shot" do it.

I think the platform is still too new, its hard to find examples as stated earlier. People are just now starting to do custom tunes on the raceme so we will see. The canned tunes look to be pretty clean on the lower settings, the best ive seen so far.

I'm starting to think that emissions tuning might be the way to go, I just hate the act of actually putting the DEF in the tank lol. And knowing that one day, it will all go bad and ill be forced to shell twice as much as a 2nd gen kit just to replace it.

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Have you talked to Ray Rich at Double R Diesel about tuning through Warp? I'm running his custom tunes on my MiniMaxx (have been for 2 and a half years) and on my street tunes (80-120 hp) I don't smoke at all unless I make it by flooring it without letting the turbo spool. All other conditions it's smoke free. I know he's pretty keen on keeping it that way for a lot of guys because of the rep the diesel world was getting from all the guys rolling coal everywhere. Another key thing you'll want to have on your tunes is low boost fueling turned off. It won't have quite as much get up and go off the line with your 37's but it will definitely eliminate the smoke.

Some of the "local Joe blow" guys in our industry are typically better tunes than the big shots. You gotta know their back story, how long they've been doing it, etc. Most of these guys deal with custom tuning FAR more than any of the big shots have and test it on their own trucks first to make sure it works. They aren't going to sell you something that's going to damage your truck. Most custom tunes are actually far safer than the canned tunes that come on H&S or RaceME products as the custom tuners actually understand the logistics of what they're doing.
For example , Ryan Milliken essentially was H&S when it came to tuning the Cummins. He did it all. So now that he's off by himself doing his own thing that makes him a local Joe blow? No, of course not. The guy is one of the best tuners in the industry hands down.

From my experience and many others that I've talked to canned tunes are absolutely terrible compared to a good custom tune. Find the right guy that knows what he's doing and you can get exactly what you want.

SouthTexan said:

The EFIbyRyan on my friends 2014 is pretty clean as far as black smoke in normal driving conditions for all tunes. The +30 hp tune doesn't put out any smoke even when you get on it. The +90 hp you may get a small puff of black smoke if you get on it, but it is not that much and it quickly clears out. The higher +140 hp and +200 hp tunes smoke quit a bit though.

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This is correct ^^. On a lower tune most of them won't smoke too much as they aren't pumping that much fuel in. As long as you let the turbo spool up they won't smoke. The higher horsepower tunes will definitely smoke if you get on them though. It takes fuel to make horsepower, that's just how it works.

River19 said:

Based on my experience with older tuned diesels (pre-emmissions crap) I'm guessing for all those tunes "90HP","200HP" etc. they largest variable changing is the fueling......what they can't easily address is the increasing amount of airflow required to burn that increasing fuel.

My guess is most of the folks smoking on those tunes are running stock turbos with possibly a bolt on intake. While the bolt on helps a bit, without addressing the turbo capacity and ability to spool faster there will usually be a lag in getting enough air (if ever) into the engine to burn all the extra fuel being shoved in there. Rolling coal is just wasted unburnt fuel. Only way to burn that fuel and make more power is to get more air in there and quickly.

Assuming all other systems are working correctly/as intended that initial puff of smoke is most likely due to the fuel volume increasing quicker than the turbo is spooling etc.

Every time I increased my fueling I was always increasing my intake needs to avoid smoke and high EGTs. First a new wheel, then larger turbo and tubes etc.

That is why canned tunes can be very tough to get smokeless for all but the most mild of tunes. Even identical trucks can produce different behavior on the same canned tunes.

Admittedly I am not as familiar with the Cummins as I am with others so I'm sure ST et al can correct me if I am wrong, but the basic operating process is the same on any diesel regarding air and fuel.

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To correct this slightly for the newer trucks. All 6.7 Cummins use a VGT (variable geometry turbo) stock. So you essentially can tune the turbo as well. This is how guys make 5.9cr sound tunes, loud turbo tunes, etc. So it's not just fuel that's being tuned anymore; air is as well. Now that being said, a stock turbo is still only going to flow so much air. If you really want to make power and start over fueling it the turbo isn't going to keep up.

Thanks Brandon, I figured there have been some advancement on the airflow and it sounds like it added some additional ability to adjust on the air side as well which is nice, am I right in assuming eventually the same limitations exist as fuel ramps up,,,,but now there is a more "tunable" range before you are in coal hell?

We maxed my 7.3 out at ~350/750 wheel on PMR internals (ie. not forged) and it was obviously a slightly different ballgame than modern common rails.

yea Double R is on the list, I only recently discovered him on Instagram of all places. I'm just researching at the moment, I'm in the 2wd half ton until I leave the city. I'm going back to a powerstroke or trying a cummins ASAP. I was impressed with his 12v tune though, so it seems like he knows his stuff.

Well when I said average joe, that's not really what I meant. I don't think Hardway is average joe, I mean like *** Diesel tuning who recently bought a dyno and got their first EFI live license. There a bunch of performance shops claiming they can do this and that, that's what I meant. Think about how many random shops tune blower mustangs and what not.

Ideally I would like to be able to physically go to the shop, vs remote tuning. Ive had plenty of annoying experiences with remote tuning. Its much easier to show up at a shop and get the real deal first hand. But ive never done that with a diesel, as its much harder to find a good shop within a reasonable distance depending on your location...

River19 said:

Thanks Brandon, I figured there have been some advancement on the airflow and it sounds like it added some additional ability to adjust on the air side as well which is nice, am I right in assuming eventually the same limitations exist as fuel ramps up,,,,but now there is a more "tunable" range before you are in coal hell?

We maxed my 7.3 out at ~350/750 wheel on PMR internals (ie. not forged) and it was obviously a slightly different ballgame than modern common rails.

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Yeah there's definitely more options to make some power without smoking everyone and their dog out.

Even with my max performance tune that I run (~200hp) it doesn't smoke a ridiculous amount unless you don't allow the turbo to spool up. And that setup should be putting down around 475-500 hp and maybe +/- 1000 ft-lbs to the rear wheels. I haven't actually dyno'd my truck but based on other trucks I've seen run and feedback from Double R Diesel we expect it to be in that range.

SilverSurfer15 said:

yea Double R is on the list, I only recently discovered him on Instagram of all places. I'm just researching at the moment, I'm in the 2wd half ton until I leave the city. I'm going back to a powerstroke or trying a cummins ASAP. I was impressed with his 12v tune though, so it seems like he knows his stuff.

Well when I said average joe, that's not really what I meant. I don't think Hardway is average joe, I mean like *** Diesel tuning who recently bought a dyno and got their first EFI live license. There a bunch of performance shops claiming they can do this and that, that's what I meant. Think about how many random shops tune blower mustangs and what not.

Ideally I would like to be able to physically go to the shop, vs remote tuning. Ive had plenty of annoying experiences with remote tuning. Its much easier to show up at a shop and get the real deal first hand. But ive never done that with a diesel, as its much harder to find a good shop within a reasonable distance depending on your location...

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Ray is a very great guy to work with. Hands down one of the nicest guys I've dealt with in the truck industry. Very knowledgable and explains everything in detail if you have questions and top notch customer service. I've been nothing but impressed with everything him and I have worked on together.

Yeah totally fair. There's definitely more guys like that popping up and I'd be hard pressed to trust them as well. Unless they've done some extensive tuning on their own Cummins and have proof that it's working well and hasn't blown anything up I'd steer clear.

Remote tuning on diesels is extremely common. With the technology that's available now-a-days it's pretty much as good as tuning in a shop. The custom tuners have dealt with the stuff so long that they know what works and what does. Plus with EFI Live you have the ability to data log and send that back to your tuner so he can really fine tune anything. RaceME has stated they will be offering data logging in the near future as well. But even without that it's pretty easy to get things nailed down. My MiniMaxx doesn't have data logging and Ray and I work back and forth really well to get the tunes nailed down. It helps that I have a good amount of mechanical knowledge and can tell what's working and what isn't. But Ray typically nails it on the head as well. Engine wise I haven't changed much at all from the first tune he gave me with the exception of a max performance tune and a dedicated towing tune. All the other revisions we've worked on is transmission related (shift points, torque converter lock up, line pressure, etc).
Ray and I are almost as far apart as possible (West coast of Canada VS East coast of the US) but through email if I have an issue I typically have a new tune file in hand within 24 hours of contacting him.

that's good to know, I'm going to keep him in mind... this is off topic, but speaking of transmission, have you done anything with yours? I read all these horror stories but I feel like most of them are self induced.

SilverSurfer15 said:

that's good to know, I'm going to keep him in mind... this is off topic, but speaking of transmission, have you done anything with yours? I read all these horror stories but I feel like most of them are self induced.

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I've played with the transmission tuning a lot to get it running how I wanted it. Ray and I changed pretty much all the shift points both up and down to prevent it from lugging and I run increased line pressure (185 psi as that's about the max that the stock pump/valve body can handle). Both those things definitely help but driving style is still a huge factor in it all. Essentially just don't let it lug at too low of an rpm and don't mash the throttle in the overdrive gears (5th and 6th) and it should be okay. There is still the odd one that's going to fail but overall I think they handle basic tuning and deletes alright.

brandonjansen said:

I've played with the transmission tuning a lot to get it running how I wanted it. Ray and I changed pretty much all the shift points both up and down to prevent it from lugging and I run increased line pressure (185 psi as that's about the max that the stock pump/valve body can handle). Both those things definitely help but driving style is still a huge factor in it all. Essentially just don't let it lug at too low of an rpm and don't mash the throttle in the overdrive gears (5th and 6th) and it should be okay. There is still the odd one that's going to fail but overall I think they handle basic tuning and deletes alright.

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And man do you notice a difference in shift firmness once you play with the trans line pressure and VB. Not sure how much overlap etc. exists in the stock tranny tunes but I swapped to an upgraded valve body in my old rig and shifts were FIRM once I got it all together. Do you notice the same level of improvement etc. on the Ram? Firmer shifts? The tranny adjustments are some of the only things I would look into tuning for on my 6.4........

River19 said:

And man do you notice a difference in shift firmness once you play with the trans line pressure and VB. Not sure how much overlap etc. exists in the stock tranny tunes but I swapped to an upgraded valve body in my old rig and shifts were FIRM once I got it all together. Do you notice the same level of improvement etc. on the Ram? Firmer shifts? The tranny adjustments are some of the only things I would look into tuning for on my 6.4........

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Yes it shifts very firm. Sometimes too firm. We played around with one file where Ray made the pressure build curve the same as Revmax tuning and at times it actually shifts too hard with that file to the extent where it's annoying. I've had a few passengers comment on how hard the truck shifts. Part of it just because they're not used to a vehicle shifting like that (I'm used to it in my Nova).
All that stuff can be played with on the 68rfe. I'm not sure what's all available for custom tuning on the 6.4 but I'm sure there's guys that can play with it for you.

Help!!!

Hello fellas I am new here so my apologies if I am breaking the forum code by jumping in here but I am at a complete loss... I feel like there is no right solution for me and me desires for tuning my truck. I wanna do a full delete I have already purchased a gaggle of hard parts including a cts2 with unlock cable here is where my problem begins.... Can I use this to switch efi live csp4 tunes? If not does smarty make a tuner for the 2016 with multipl tunes that the cts2 can switch??? I am so mixed up about what tuner is right for me and how to utilize my edge monitor or what I should do