How/When does Ram Respond to HP/Torque #s

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

mtofell

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Posts
2,631
Reaction score
2,269
Ram Year
2014
Engine
Hemi 6.4
Ram is pretty far in the rear view of Ford + Chevy/GMC for the 2017 model year. At 385 the HP is 50+ behind. For most buyers torque is 100+ behind. I know with an Aisin you can get 900 lb/ft but let's face it, the majority of buyers are 2500 or 3500 non-Aisin folks.

If I were buying a truck to only haul major weight the Ram still looks great. But, the reality is most buyers use their trucks for towing AND daily driving. That 385HP rating is a HUGE negative compared to the offerings of the competition. 2 years and 8 months ago when I bought my truck the ho-hum performance of the Cummins as a daily driver made me opt for the 6.4 Hemi. I'm certainly not going to take a Cummins now with the new numbers of Ford/Chevy.

So, when is Ram going to answer? I suppose we have to wait for the 2018 model year? I really don't want to leave Ram. If for no other reason, I like you guys here on the forum :happy107:

Come on Ram..... give me something!!
 

drittal

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Posts
1,557
Reaction score
636
Location
E. Montana
Ram Year
2013
Engine
6.7
Their ho hum numbers can still tow over 30,000lbs with a 3500 DRW.

At similar torque levels, the I6 will always have less HP.

Even when they up the power numbers, you won't notice much performance gain because of torque management unless they go to an even more robust trans and drivetrain.

One of the major complaints about the Cummins equipped vehicles is throttle response. There are plug in modules made expressly to alieviate this issue and from the sounds of it they help a lot with that sluggish feeling.
 
Last edited:

SouthTexan

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Posts
2,149
Reaction score
1,303
Ram Year
2014
Engine
408 CTD
It all depends on what is important to you. I feel that their are two types of HD diesel customers. Those who want more reliability, and those who want more performance

If reliability is more important, then it is a no brainer to go with the Cummins given the reputation of the other two lately. These type of people really don't care too much about performance numbers just as long as they have the peace of mind that their tow vehicle will not leave them on the side of the road or paying for a $10k bill to replaced a grenaded fuel pump. If power numbers are good enough to tow what they need , then it doesn't matter to them what numbers are advertised or who is beating who.

For the performance people, it doesn't really matter either since these guys will more than likely add a tuner or module to increase the power numbers anyways. Tune all three of the current diesels and you would get about the same power and torque numbers for all three. The reason why the Cummins feels laggy off the line is due to torque management and DBW throttle that Ram programs in. From what I hear from the reviewers and people, the new Ford feels significantly more laggy of the line compared to the 400 hp 6.7L which makes me wonder if they too added a more intrusive torque management like Ram did to save the driveline.

The funny thing about the power numbers is that every wheel end dyno I have seen of the three in stock form have been about the same regardless of what their advertised numbers were.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
M

mtofell

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Posts
2,631
Reaction score
2,269
Ram Year
2014
Engine
Hemi 6.4
Their ho hum numbers can still tow over 30,000lbs with a 3500 DRW.

At similar torque levels, the I6 will always have less HP.

Even when they up the power numbers, you won't notice much performance gain because of torque management unless they go to an even more robust trans and drivetrain.

One of the major complaints about the Cummins equipped vehicles is throttle response. There are plug in modules made expressly to alieviate this issue and from the sounds of it they help a lot with that sluggish feeling.

All of this is the heart of my question - ho hum numbers can tow over 30K no doubt - what about a daily driver?

Less HP at similar torque? Loses the daily driver buyer interest - higher HP and quicker stock off the line performance is what is desired

I'm a pretty dumb car guy and just want something to work out of the box (or off the lot in this case :)) I don't want to "plug and play" anything. Why would I plug and play my Ram and potentially void a warranty when I could just buy a Chevy/GMC or Ford?

I'm just afraid most consumers read numbers and I'm largely in that camp. I think the folks that need a truck to haul 30K are in the very small minority. The market segment looking at a 2500/3500 diesel truck are weekend warriors and use their trucks for daily driving during the week and towing on the weekend. I can't imagine many folks who buy a 60K truck and let it sit in the driveway all week.

I love Ram trucks and think they've done great over the last 5 years or so. I just hope they have something in the works to compete with the numbers game currently going on.
 

SouthTexan

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Posts
2,149
Reaction score
1,303
Ram Year
2014
Engine
408 CTD
All of this is the heart of my question - ho hum numbers can tow over 30K no doubt - what about a daily driver?

Less HP at similar torque? Loses the daily driver buyer interest - higher HP and quicker stock off the line performance is what is desired

I'm a pretty dumb car guy and just want something to work out of the box (or off the lot in this case :)) I don't want to "plug and play" anything. Why would I plug and play my Ram and potentially void a warranty when I could just buy a Chevy/GMC or Ford?

I'm just afraid most consumers read numbers and I'm largely in that camp. I think the folks that need a truck to haul 30K are in the very small minority. The market segment looking at a 2500/3500 diesel truck are weekend warriors and use their trucks for daily driving during the week and towing on the weekend. I can't imagine many folks who buy a 60K truck and let it sit in the driveway all week.

I love Ram trucks and think they've done great over the last 5 years or so. I just hope they have something in the works to compete with the numbers game currently going on.

Most 2500 diesel owners probably don't tow more than 13k lbs. If the power of the 370hp and 800 lb-ft Cummins can tow 13,000 lbs up the extreme of the Ike Gauntlet while easily keeping the rated speed limit then how much more power do you want?

I also believe that people are more fiercely loyal to their diesel manufacturers than to let advertised numbers sway them. Even more so than the actual trucks when it comes to Ram's. I don't think they are going to change just because of some power numbers especially when a few plug ins (which warranty would not detect) would make the performance feel a moot point.

If advertised power number are more important, then I would advise them to go buy the other diesel options. Everyone should buy what makes then happy as long as it is within their means, and it ain't no skin off my nuts if they choose to go to another brand.
 
Last edited:

drittal

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Posts
1,557
Reaction score
636
Location
E. Montana
Ram Year
2013
Engine
6.7
Why would I plug and play my Ram and potentially void a warranty when I could just buy a Chevy/GMC or Ford?
Because that would involve trusting the Ford to last and learning to like how the GM looks.

I'm just afraid most consumers read numbers and I'm largely in that camp. I think the folks that need a truck to haul 30K are in the very small minority. The market segment looking at a 2500/3500 diesel truck are weekend warriors and use their trucks for daily driving during the week and towing on the weekend. I can't imagine many folks who buy a 60K truck and let it sit in the driveway all week.

I don't know if Ram gas EVER lead the segment in HP, yet RAM HD is second to Ford. In fact sales were better than both Chevy and GMC combined midyear 2015.

HP isn't the number in the HD diesel game, and Ram only trails by 10 and 25 with 900.

As for sitting, my father has a 2012 with 23k, almost all towing. A DRW crew Ling bed really isn't all that practical for DD when he has other options that are more economical and practical.
My 3500 is the family truckster, but it sits more often than not because we too have a second vehicle that is more practical for daily commuting and parking lots. Cost us 3k.



Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 

drittal

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Posts
1,557
Reaction score
636
Location
E. Montana
Ram Year
2013
Engine
6.7
Btw, has Ram announced actual 2017 power ratings? I think they have, but not sure.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
OP
OP
M

mtofell

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Posts
2,631
Reaction score
2,269
Ram Year
2014
Engine
Hemi 6.4
especially when a few plug ins (which warranty would not detect) would make the performance feel a moot point.

Hmmmm - I've not heard of this. I was under the impression that all these new high-tech trucks told all tales when plugged in at the dealership.

As a potential buyer I need nothing more for towing. I know the Cummins is a beast. I'd just love a bit more snappy daily driving.
 

SouthTexan

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Posts
2,149
Reaction score
1,303
Ram Year
2014
Engine
408 CTD
Hmmmm - I've not heard of this. I was under the impression that all these new high-tech trucks told all tales when plugged in at the dealership.

As a potential buyer I need nothing more for towing. I know the Cummins is a beast. I'd just love a bit more snappy daily driving.


Modules like Edge JWA and BD throttle booster do not alter anything on the ECM like tuners do. They don't even change turbo boost. The dealer can tell if the ECM has been altered by a tuner because it leaves an imprint so to speak. Modules only alter what the ECM sends out to the injectors and do not change the factory programming.

Take the BD thottle booster, all it does is change the output and input of the throttle position sensor making accelerating from a stop feel much snappier. It does not increase power in any way. Take it off, and the dealer will not be able to tell it was on there since it does not alter ECM programming or leave an imprint.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
M

mtofell

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Posts
2,631
Reaction score
2,269
Ram Year
2014
Engine
Hemi 6.4
Btw, has Ram announced actual 2017 power ratings? I think they have, but not sure.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I haven't seen/heard it yet but my main source is here. It seems like I've read somewhere the numbers aren't going to change much.

Totally true about trusting the Ford. That would be tough to do after all the troubles they've had. The GMC/Chevy is really the only other truck I'd consider. Before my Ram I had 125K great miles on an 06 Duramax.
 

smiley

Senior Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Posts
6,622
Reaction score
2,955
Location
Minot, ND
Ram Year
2014 Ram 2500 Crew
Engine
6.7L Cummins
I have not driven the diesels in a long time admittedly. The last Ram diesel I drove was two summers ago and it was great. I recall the Duramax being awful with turbo lag back when I worked at a GM dealer and it turned me off of them more than the looks already had.

I don't think anyone out there okay I don't think many people out there believe the Cummins is not the best engine. The complaint I always heard was transmission couldn't handle what the engine could. I think rather than focus on more and more power numbers race. Make the Aisin standard on all Cummins Rams and build a better reputation of dependability that can't be beat. Then you don't have to play the game any longer you just improve what you can and keep selling the most capable all around truck in a 2500 and the most capable towing rig in the 3500+.
 

River19

Senior Member
Joined
May 19, 2015
Posts
360
Reaction score
216
Location
"Live" VT, Work in MA/RI
Ram Year
2014
Engine
Hemi 6.4L
Is 385HP really not sufficient for daily driving? Lol.......where do you daily drive? The Ring in Germany? :)

All joking aside, IMHO the gap between ratings at this point isn't enough to sacrifice reliability of the drive train, especially given that the current Cummins is more than capable of towing the heavy loads that most buyers will ever throw at it.
 

Danno

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Posts
490
Reaction score
102
Location
Mid Atlantic
Ram Year
2016 Power Wagon
Engine
6.4
Ever wonder why there is no big advertising campaign about the chassis cab HP/TQ numbers? Its a ploy by the manufacture to show their product is better and get your attention. Its working, chassis cabs have a lower rated engine and still do more. The 3/4 and 1 ton numbers are to draw attention and increase sales by getting the buyers suckered by numbers. The buyers will never need them but they empty their pockets for them.

If you want the mall parking lot bragging rights, then buy the best in class rated truck.
 
OP
OP
M

mtofell

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Posts
2,631
Reaction score
2,269
Ram Year
2014
Engine
Hemi 6.4
While the point of the thread was the numbers game, I'm mainly curious about Ram's next offering since I just wasn't impressed with the current truck. And I'm not alone. That loooooong thread a while back about "Why is the Cummins so slow?" is kind of my point.

And I agree the numbers being put out are pretty ridiculous. Where does it end? At this rate by 2025 trucks will have 2000HP. Keeping in mind there are loaded diesel pushers slumming around the mountain passes with a measly 330HP/800torque (I know, I know - different gearing and other stuff).

I'm content with my Hemi for the time being but will probably end up in a diesel in the next couple years. Just like the advertisers intend, the numbers catch my eyes.

Thanks everyone for the great info and discussion.
 

tjfdesmo

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Posts
2,255
Reaction score
4,038
Location
AZ
If I go back to a diesel it will be another CTD. I would not even give a cursory glance to the V-8 stuff. I would be buying for work/tow and longevity, not to go drifting around town like some high school punk. A V-8 will always feel "snappier" than a long-arm I-6. That means nothing to me. They can spout numbers 'til the cows come home, but the Cummins stands alone.
 

BossHogg

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Posts
1,932
Reaction score
2,444
Location
Oakland Township, Michigan
Ram Year
2015
Engine
6.7L Cummins
The complaint I always heard was transmission couldn't handle what the engine could. I think rather than focus on more and more power numbers race. Make the Aisin standard on all Cummins Rams and build a better reputation of dependability that can't be beat.

The 68RFE is a darn good transmission and it doesn't cost $2,700 additional dollars. Allpar lists the differences between the Aisin and the 68RFE and the biggest difference is the PTO on the Aisin. The 68RFE got its bad rap back in the day when the guys would turn up the fuel flow on the old mechanical injector pumps creating power greater that what the transmission was designed to handle.

This power war between the three is ridiculous, the amount of torque management being used to protect the driveline is annoying and the power race is simply driving up the cost of the trucks.

What they need to do is lower the costs of the truck, increase the MPGs, and give us a brake controller that works when traveling under 30 MPH.
 

River19

Senior Member
Joined
May 19, 2015
Posts
360
Reaction score
216
Location
"Live" VT, Work in MA/RI
Ram Year
2014
Engine
Hemi 6.4L
The 68RFE is a darn good transmission and it doesn't cost $2,700 additional dollars. Allpar lists the differences between the Aisin and the 68RFE and the biggest difference is the PTO on the Aisin. The 68RFE got its bad rap back in the day when the guys would turn up the fuel flow on the old mechanical injector pumps creating power greater that what the transmission was designed to handle.

This power war between the three is ridiculous, the amount of torque management being used to protect the driveline is annoying and the power race is simply driving up the cost of the trucks.

What they need to do is lower the costs of the truck, increase the MPGs, and give us a brake controller that works when traveling under 30 MPH.

Interesting take........I bet they could sell a lot of diesel rigs making 350hp/750TQ but getting an honest consistent 23mpg highway in a 4wd configuration. Dreaming, as large rigs are a challenge as they have the cross section of a dumpster...
 

reloaderguy

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Posts
570
Reaction score
313
Location
Oregon
Ram Year
2016 Power Wagon
Engine
6.4 Hemi
This power war between the three is ridiculous, the amount of torque management being used to protect the driveline is annoying and the power race is simply driving up the cost of the trucks.

I'd wager a guess that none of the Big Three's diesel transmissions would survive the warranty period without TM. The HP/torque war is absurd considering the consumer isn't really getting those numbers to the ground.
 
Top