Hey everybody lets beat a dead horse!

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cajun87

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Ok so I've discussed leveling kits on outdoorsmans here several times and have gotten some really good input, but now I have a new question. I've got a 13 outdoorsman with 20x9 sport rims with stock goodyear tires. In the front I'm measuring 37.25" and in the back I'm at 40.75". I really really want to put a 2.5" hbs level on it, but I've heard of cv angle issues and vibrations. However, everything I'm seeing is you northern guys running in four high in the snow going over 40 mph and running into problems. I live in south Louisiana and will never see snow or need to run down the highway in four high, if I get into mud I'll be in four low. The only reason I bought a 4x4 anyway is so I can launch my boat in a crappy launch or places that doesn't have a launch.

The real question is, if I never use my truck in four high running down the highway and rarely put my truck in 4x4 at all will it cause many if any issues down the line? I realize that all the front end parts turn whether I'm in 4x4 or not so there lies my question.

I'm not putting the 5100's so please nobody suggest it. Eventually I will go that route but I only have 10,000 miles on my truck and can't justify spending that kind of money when I have decent shocks.

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madrock

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The bad angle will put stress on the CV joint, which could lead to difficulty steering and a wobble when it fails.
 
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cajun87

cajun87

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If I go 2.5" I'll still have 1" of rake.
 

Bluesmoke91

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Just throwing this out there, the 5100s are a much better option. I understand your shocks only have 10k miles, but the ride comfort over a spacer is much better.
 

arod412

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The issues I have heard is mostly from the UCA. Problem is because the2009-2012 are thicker. And the 2013+ are thinner.

Someone correct me if im wrong, but Like madrock said, essentially your leveling kit pushes on the shock so you are putting stress on the angle. With the shocks, you aren't putting stress because you are increasing travel of the shock.

Hope that makes sense.
 

h2oman

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And you'll be lucky to get 20K out of the stock shocks. They are pure crap. I changed my rears out at 29K and the stockers were done. I don't know exactly when they died but they didn't make it two years.
 

N1ck

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I put my 2.5" HBS level on after 6 days of owning the truck. Ride quality remained the same, I ran it up to 32,000kms and never had a single issue with ball joints, cv's, vibration, etc. I live in Canada and it's in 4wd for 4 months of the year lol

For the price of the level I would do it again and again, I only swapped it out as I did a 6" lift.

I don't quite understand why people talk down levels but preach 5100's. 5100's are still going to create angles and you run the same risk of vibration vs a level. Ride quality is subjective, bilstien makes a quality product though. A level is effortless to install and is dirt cheap.
 
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h2oman

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I put my 2.5" HBS level on after 6 days of owning the truck. Ride quality remained the same, I ran it up to 32,000kms and never had a single issue with ball joints, cv's, vibration, etc. I live in Canada and it's in 4wd for 4 months of the year lol

For the price of the level I would do it again and again, I only swapped it out as I did a 6" lift.

I don't quite understand why people talk down levels but preach 5100's. 5100's are still going to create angles and you run the same risk of vibration vs a level. Ride quality is subjective, bilstien makes a quality product though. A level is effortless to install and is dirt cheap.

That's the beauty of the Bilstein's. They don't change the geometry and poor angles. This video will explain and also tell you why you should stay away from twin tube shocks too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG1GynQEAPc
 
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cajun87

cajun87

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Ok guys i understand how bilteins work and how awesome they are, but I am not going that route right now as i stated in my initial post. I will eventually, but right now its not an option. My question is specifically for leveling an outdoorsman that is rumored to be .7" taller than a standard ram. Will cv angles cause problems in 2wd.
 
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cajun87

cajun87

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Also i know about the 13+ balljoint problems, and I've got it taken care of.
 

jstacey8

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well in the end its your truck do what you want there have been plenty of people who have had 2.5 inch spacers with no problems and a few have. if you worried about cv angles go with a 2 inch or 1.5 but no one can guarantee you will have no problems. dodge can't even guarantee you that off the show room floor.
 
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jlb

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That's the beauty of the Bilstein's. They don't change the geometry and poor angles. This video will explain and also tell you why you should stay away from twin tube shocks too.

ORW Bilstein 5100 Ride Height Adjustable - YouTube

Some of the information provided in this video is incorrect. When you lift the trucks using the coil overs, whether it is a spacer, or the 5100s the resting geometry of the suspension is EXACTLY the same, otherwise you wouldn't have achieved any lift...

The difference is that using a spacer pushes the whole coil over assembly down, so when you put the weight of the truck back on there the suspension squats the same amount as before, but the frame of the truck is now on top of the spacer, which in turn is on top of the coil over assembly.

The bilstein works using the pre-load of the spring, which I am going to assume is why everyone always needs a spring compressor to fit them. By adding pre-load to the spring you are increasing the amount of force it takes to change the initial compression of the spring (the spring constant after this initial offset remains the same as stock, and would be rated in pounds of force per inch of compression). When you set the truck down on your new coil over assembly with pre-load the tire touches the ground, and then the pre-load eats up some amount of the trucks load before it undergoes any compression. With stock suspension, or a spacer you would notice the suspension starting to compress immediately when the tire touches the ground. After the pre-load gets eaten up the suspension begins to squat normally from the additional mass of the truck.

At the end of the day, both ways put the truck at the same height, and the same suspension geometry, but the bilsteins do not push the suspension as far out of whack when fully unloaded as a spacer would. This is the only place where they really differ.

Now in response to the question, will CV angle cause problems in 2wd, I can only respond from my own experiences, and say probably not. I have a 2011 outdoorsman w/2" spacer, and blew up a CV axle when I was near full lock in 4wd which may be even more extreme than full suspension articulation (never compared the max angles of the two, but they are both places to be cautious). Since then I haven't had any problems. Also, bear in mind that the front axle disengages when you are in 2wd, granted the CVs still spin, but there is NO loading on them while they do this, so it should cause virtually no wear, and tear, or vibrations.
 

Thatdude596

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I have a hbs 2.5 kit on my 09 1500 and it has destroyed my front end. I just had my third cv axle replaced from the spacers putting the cvs at such a drastic angle. I will be taking it off and going with a pro comp lift. I have the wobble sometimes, sometimes not
 
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cajun87

cajun87

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I have a hbs 2.5 kit on my 09 1500 and it has destroyed my front end. I just had my third cv axle replaced from the spacers putting the cvs at such a drastic angle. I will be taking it off and going with a pro comp lift. I have the wobble sometimes, sometimes not


Is your truck a regular 4x4 or a trx?
 
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cajun87

cajun87

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Well, I think if I can get by driving 99.9% in two wheel drive and not binding the front end up I will go with a 2.5" hbs level.
 

2-6Battalion

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I had a 3" spacer on the front of my 2013, never had a single problem. Drove about 10,000 miles in 2wd and 500-600 miles in 4wd with it installed and no issues of any sort. However.. Installing it, it was obvious that size of a spacer should never have been installed, but I'm hard headed and had to try it anyway.. I played hell getting that thing in. Before it I had the daystar leveling kit and it was a breeze to install and rode great as well.. I just wasn't satisfied with the amount of lift I got out of it.

Ended up keeping it and I'm glad I did because it's now installed on my 2014 to help level out my 6" procomp lift.

If it is true that your truck already stands a small amount higher then other model rams.. The daystar kit may give you what you're looking for and not push the limits on you angles and suspension geometry. It's also made of polyurethane instead of metal, which may help with ride quality.
 
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cajun87

cajun87

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Well fellas i ended up going with a 2" hbs level and I'm glad i did. All said and done I am 39.5" in the front and 39.75" in the back. Everything went in good and the truck drives good so far, I just need to get it aligned.

I noticed a plastic spacer between my spring and the top of the strut. Is that just a cushion for the spring or is that the .75" lift for the outdoorsman? It looks to be the right thickness to give the truck a small level.
 

RamRMK

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Installed the 2.5 HBS this past Sunday. First side was a PITA to get until I figured out to disconnect the sway bar. Have not noticed any difference driving. The rake on my truck wasnt noticeable until I put the airlift bags in then it looked ridonks.


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shocking14u

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Some of the information provided in this video is incorrect. When you lift the trucks using the coil overs, whether it is a spacer, or the 5100s the resting geometry of the suspension is EXACTLY the same, otherwise you wouldn't have achieved any lift...

The difference is that using a spacer pushes the whole coil over assembly down, so when you put the weight of the truck back on there the suspension squats the same amount as before, but the frame of the truck is now on top of the spacer, which in turn is on top of the coil over assembly.

The bilstein works using the pre-load of the spring, (not true completely)

which I am going to assume is why everyone always needs a spring compressor to fit them. (You need a spring compressor to assemble dis-assemble stock struts, not just aftermarket lifted.)

By adding pre-load to the spring you are increasing the amount of force it takes to change the initial compression of the spring (the spring constant after this initial offset remains the same as stock, and would be rated in pounds of force per inch of compression). (Not true, if linear, would remain same as preloaded rate.)

When you set the truck down on your new coil over assembly with pre-load the tire touches the ground, and then the pre-load eats up some amount of the trucks load before it undergoes any compression. With stock suspension, or a spacer you would notice the suspension starting to compress immediately when the tire touches the ground. After the pre-load gets eaten up the suspension begins to squat normally from the additional mass of the truck.

At the end of the day, both ways put the truck at the same height, and the same suspension geometry, (static maybee, but not effective range)

but the bilsteins do not push the suspension as far out of whack when fully unloaded as a spacer would. (OK, agreed)

This is the only place where they really differ. (absolutely not!)

Now in response to the question, will CV angle cause problems in 2wd, I can only respond from my own experiences, and say probably not. I have a 2011 outdoorsman w/2" spacer, and blew up a CV axle when I was near full lock in 4wd which may be even more extreme than full suspension articulation (never compared the max angles of the two, but they are both places to be cautious). Since then I haven't had any problems. Also, bear in mind that the front axle disengages when you are in 2wd, granted the CVs still spin, but there is NO loading on them while they do this, so it should cause virtually no wear, and tear, or vibrations.

See my comments to JIB's post above in (parentheses):

Please see this information below from a very good suspension source (I shortend it up a bit in order to simplify things, this guy could write a book on the subject):

Ram 1500 4x4 Front Suspension – Here are some excerpts from a great source in the suspension business (used with permission).

2009-2014 Dodge Ram 1500 Pick Up trucks should be able to accommodate up to 3” of lift without any major issues in the drivetrain or suspension components, but this is dependent on the “TYPE” of lift used. This is however the maximum and you are at the maximum / borderline of proper CV axle (4x4 models), upper control arm, and steering operation. Take into consideration minor differences in many trucks, along with potential frame flex / twisting of the chassis in 4x4 under certain conditions that can cause failure and issues with the CV axles and other suspension components (ball joint / tie rod bind).

The front strut in these vehicles control suspension travel, more specifically “droop” or how much the suspension can travel downward. This controls the factory suspension component operation and the OEM’s typically play it safe in regards to wheel travel affecting wear and tear on a vehicle suspension and drivetrain (warranty). Aftermarket suspension components typically work to exploit or maximize the OEM chassis potential.

Differences in Leveling Kits –

Spacer kits drop the entire strut down in order to achieve lift. This affects how much the suspension will effectively droop out. Too large of a spacer on top of the strut can allow the suspension to droop out too far and bind CV axles and other suspension components (ball joints, tie rod ends, etc.). Spacer kits retain the factory strut unit and do not improve ride quality, wheel travel, and lack the ability to change shock valving to control larger, heavier, and wider aftermarket wheels and tires.

Replacement Front Struts / Coil Over Shocks that I am familiar with are typically engineered to lift the vehicle a desired amount just like a spacer would do. The big difference is that lift is achieved by a combination of moving the lower spring seat position (up) “AND” preloading the spring. These styles of lift are not “JUST” preloading the spring. They are able to move the lower spring seat up to attain lift by using a longer shock shaft , along with a different length shock body, plus a small amount of spring preload (if you used spring preload only to get 3” of lift, it would be stiff as a rock). One of the beauties of this type of system is that you can control the amount of droop with the length of the shock shaft utilizing the location of the internal droop stop in the shock internals. These types of systems maximize the potential droop and compression travel available with the factory CV axles and suspension components. In addition, most of these types of units have higher quality components than OEM, better shock valving to control aftermarket wheels and tires, and in some cases regarding large diameter shock bodies (2.5” coil overs and reservoirs), extended and extreme off road abuse.
This is the main reason why you would have fewer problems with a properly designed 3” lift strut /coil over vs. a 3” lift strut spacer.

My personal opinion on leveling kits / systems for 2009-2014 Ram 1500 Trucks:

4x4 vehicles:
• 2” Strut Spacers Only – 2” of lift for optimal all around use (including high speed 4x4 operation).
• 3” Strut Spacers Only – Not recommended.
• Strut / Coil Over Only – up to 2.5” of lift for optimal all around use.
• 2.5” – 3” Lift Strut / Coil Overs – Use with Aftermarket extended travel upper control arms (uniball or extended articulation ball joint style) A well designed upper control arm will correct upper ball joint angles and improve alignment characteristics. Also recommend lowering the differential 1” if possible depending on the lift installed and travel achieved. High angle steering kit highly recommended.

2x4 vehicles:
• Up to 2.5” Strut Spacers Only – OK for all around use.
• 3” Strut Spacers Only - Use with Aftermarket extended travel upper control arms (uniball or extended articulation ball joint style) Some arms may contact the factory coil over / spring assembly) A well designed upper control arm will correct upper ball joint angles and improve alignment characteristics.
• Strut / Coil Over Only – 2.5” of lift for optimal all around use.
• 2.5” – 3” Lift Strut / Coil Overs – Use with Aftermarket extended travel upper control arms (uniball or extended articulation ball joint style) A well designed upper control arm will correct upper ball joint angles and improve alignment characteristics. High angle steering kit highly recommended.

Other Considerations:

• Spacers do not add any performance, only ride height. (not saying they are bad).
• Lifted struts / coil overs add wheel travel and performance (through a longer shock and tuned valving)
• Outdoorsmen Models and others may have different ride heights from the factory. Outdoorsmen models typically sit 1” taller than a standard model.
o With a strut spacer, the Outdoorsmen will sit 1” taller than advertised over a standard model.
o With a lifted strut / coil over, the Outdoorsmen will sit 1” less than advertised over a standard model.
 
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