Cam failures and Molybdenum

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Burla

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A lot of guys have tuned out of oil thread, but pass this info on. Search the board, many if not most of the cam fails the owner has used a non moly oil. And the science behind this phenomenon is clear on page 11. Non moly oil wears your cam TEN times 200ppm moly, and 5 times more then the average 50ppm moly. Read the science and the graph page 11 pdf. Who still wants to run a non moly oil in their engine?
 

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Is there a chart or something around with out digging through 1000 +pgs to see which oils are high on moly ?
or the top 5 or 10 oils.

PUP, 5W30
PP 5W30
AMSOIL 5W30
REDLINE 5W30
QSUD 5W30
 

Ramnewbie

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So non of the 5/20's are high moly? Makes sense that they want to mandate that you run 5/20, more repair work for them, hopefully after warranty has expired.

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Burla

Burla

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Moly has nothing to do with weight, there are 5w20's high in moly.
 

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Moly has nothing to do with weight, there are 5w20's high in moly.
I understand that, but just because an oil is good as a 5/30 doesn't mean that that very same oil is good as a 5/20. They change their additives from one at to another. I was just on the PQIA site and it looks like QSUD 5/30 is pretty good oil. I was looking for redline but they didn't have it listed.

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WiSH2oo0

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How much moly is in my 5W20 PP the dealer just dumped into my engine?
 
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Burla

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Somewhere between 50 and 100ppm.
 

Hemi395

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So non of the 5/20's are high moly? Makes sense that they want to mandate that you run 5/20, more repair work for them, hopefully after warranty has expired.

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PYB 5w20 has around 200ppm of moly, Amsoil SS 5w20 has around 150ppm of moly, Redline 5w20 has around 450-500ppm of moly to name a few. I've ran all 3 in my truck and none were as good as Redline 5w30. Redline 5w20 is still a good choice for the Hemi IMO.
 

Ramnewbie

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PYB 5w20 has around 200ppm of moly, Amsoil SS 5w20 has around 150ppm of moly, Redline 5w20 has around 450-500ppm of moly to name a few. I've ran all 3 in my truck and none were as good as Redline 5w30. Redline 5w20 is still a good choice for the Hemi IMO.
This is just my opinion, but I'm thinking what we need in the Hemi is 5/30 with average to high moly. Someone reported on one of these threads that even with PYB 5/20's moly it was only good for 3000 miles before he started getting noisy. A 5/20 is still a 5/20 no matter how you dress it up. I know some are fixated on moly, and I'll concede that that has something to do with it, but I'm not convinced that that's the whole story, I think viscosity has a play in there too.

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Hemi395

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This is just my opinion, but I'm thinking what we need in the Hemi is 5/30 with average to high moly. Someone reported on one of these threads that even with PYB 5/20's moly it was only good for 3000 miles before he started getting noisy. A 5/20 is still a 5/20 no matter how you dress it up. I know some are fixated on moly, and I'll concede that that has something to do with it, but I'm not convinced that that's the whole story, I think viscosity has a play in there too.

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I agree, my truck is overall quieter on a 5w30 than any 5w20 I ran including Redline 5w20. I've said this before, a 400HP/410ft/lb V8 should never be spec'ed with 20wt oil. The pressures and stresses on all the internal components are higher than most engines yet its spec'ed for the same 20wt oil as a 150HP 4cylinder.
 

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Let's take just a mechanical look at this. Most modern day engines are OHC with 3 or 4 valve heads. Our Hemi's are OHV with 2 big old fat heavy valves. It takes lots of valve spring to close those puppy's, which creates lots of added pressure on cam and lifters to open them. Now while the 5/20 seems to do ok for the rest of the engine I don't think it's up to the task for that one specific area.

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U&A

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This is just my opinion, but I'm thinking what we need in the Hemi is 5/30 with average to high moly. Someone reported on one of these threads that even with PYB 5/20's moly it was only good for 3000 miles before he started getting noisy. A 5/20 is still a 5/20 no matter how you dress it up. I know some are fixated on moly, and I'll concede that that has something to do with it, but I'm not convinced that that's the whole story, I think viscosity has a play in there too.

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Unfortunately PYB did get its moly lowerd a little but only in the 180 range.

And as I posted before questioning the PYB quieting the tick for 3000 miles, The only thing we don't know is once the tick has developed after 3000 miles, will fresh PYB make it go away again for another 3000?

That question really never got addressed.
 

tsielski

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Just have to ask this, as I honestly don't know. Was the infamous hemi tick an issue in any of the pre MDS 5.7 hemi's? Thought process just going down several avenue's.
If the tick has really only manifested itself with the release of the MDS engines, there may be a particular lubrication requirement for those lifters vice the non-MDS lifters that has never been addressed/admitted to by the OEM.
Have any cam/lifter failures been reported on a non-MDS OE hemi?
 

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Just have to ask this, as I honestly don't know. Was the infamous hemi tick an issue in any of the pre MDS 5.7 hemi's? Thought process just going down several avenue's.
If the tick has really only manifested itself with the release of the MDS engines, there may be a particular lubrication requirement for those lifters vice the non-MDS lifters that has never been addressed/admitted to by the OEM.
Have any cam/lifter failures been reported on a non-MDS OE hemi?

Yes, it was before mds
 

U&A

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Just have to ask this, as I honestly don't know. Was the infamous hemi tick an issue in any of the pre MDS 5.7 hemi's? Thought process just going down several avenue's.
If the tick has really only manifested itself with the release of the MDS engines, there may be a particular lubrication requirement for those lifters vice the non-MDS lifters that has never been addressed/admitted to by the OEM.
Have any cam/lifter failures been reported on a non-MDS OE hemi?

But if you want to know for sure if non MDS 5.7's have it ask somone that has a 2500 with the 5.7. The dont have MDS but do have VVT
 
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Burla

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We have ticks on board non mds lifters, I think whatever is causing hem tick is not the mds system.
 

tsielski

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Damn, thanks. Thinking then that the tick issue may have something to do with the cam, lifter, pushrod geometry that for some reason, in some engines, requires a specific lubrication chemistry to mitigate. Why else would so many folks with the tick have it significantly reduced or even eliminated by simply changing the engine oil to Redline 5w-30 or an even more viscous Redline variant.

Brings to mind the issues VW had with their 2004 to 2007 PD diesel 4-cylinders. In those motors (I had the misfortune to own one), the overhead cam not only depressed the valve spring buckets, but also depressed another set of buckets, with much thinner lobes, requiring much more force than depressing valve springs, which drove the in-head fuel injection pump. An incredible number of early cam failures associated with the fuel pump cam lobes on those motors, as the supplied lubrication flow, and the additives of the specified oil couldn't protect for the loads routinely seen by those parts.
I began using Schaeffers 5w-40 synthetic diesel oil early in mine, and I have to believe that that oils relatively high moly content saved that motor from an early demise.
VW never did admit there was an issue with those engines, but quickly abandoned that design in 2008. I could go on and on about VW, but thats not relevant here.

What I believe after reading all the issues with the hemi tick and what has and has not mitigated it, is that the hemi really needs a more viscous oil than the CAFE driven 5w-20, and also an oil with relatively high amounts of moly. (~1000ppm of zddp wouldn't hurt either, but we'll never see that from a modern API spec oil)

The percentage of hemi's that experience the tick is unknown, but does not appear to be statistically significant over the total number of those motors on the road. Perhaps it's a manufacturing tolerance issue, and slight variances in machining setup as the engines are being manufactured determines if a hemi will experience a tick or not. The number of ticking engines being reported back to the OEM may be so small, in the profit & loss world of the auto maker, no action is warranted.

Although no definitive fix has been devised, thru the good work of many on this forum, the use of a more viscous oil than the OEM spec 5w-20, and either one with decent levels of moly, or moly added with an oil supplement, appear to at least mitigate ticking engines, and ought to certainly work to prevent the tick in engines that so far are quiet.

Apologize for the long-ish post, just thinking out loud.
 
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Burla

Burla

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great post no apologies.

after reading my first post and link, maybe it is the sulfur and not necessarily the moly. Whatever it is, redline has it in good enough quantities.
 
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