Cam failures and Molybdenum

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Burla

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It would be like adding around 900ppm in one quart, so divide that by seven. It would also be like adding 1700ppm phosphorus, both assuming you use the 15 ounce size.

Either way it will boost moly around 100ppm above what oil u r using.
 

R.L.K.

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Damn, thanks. Thinking then that the tick issue may have something to do with the cam, lifter, pushrod geometry that for some reason, in some engines, requires a specific lubrication chemistry to mitigate. Why else would so many folks with the tick have it significantly reduced or even eliminated by simply changing the engine oil to Redline 5w-30 or an even more viscous Redline variant.

Brings to mind the issues VW had with their 2004 to 2007 PD diesel 4-cylinders. In those motors (I had the misfortune to own one), the overhead cam not only depressed the valve spring buckets, but also depressed another set of buckets, with much thinner lobes, requiring much more force than depressing valve springs, which drove the in-head fuel injection pump. An incredible number of early cam failures associated with the fuel pump cam lobes on those motors, as the supplied lubrication flow, and the additives of the specified oil couldn't protect for the loads routinely seen by those parts.
I began using Schaeffers 5w-40 synthetic diesel oil early in mine, and I have to believe that that oils relatively high moly content saved that motor from an early demise.
VW never did admit there was an issue with those engines, but quickly abandoned that design in 2008. I could go on and on about VW, but thats not relevant here.

What I believe after reading all the issues with the hemi tick and what has and has not mitigated it, is that the hemi really needs a more viscous oil than the CAFE driven 5w-20, and also an oil with relatively high amounts of moly. (~1000ppm of zddp wouldn't hurt either, but we'll never see that from a modern API spec oil)

The percentage of hemi's that experience the tick is unknown, but does not appear to be statistically significant over the total number of those motors on the road. Perhaps it's a manufacturing tolerance issue, and slight variances in machining setup as the engines are being manufactured determines if a hemi will experience a tick or not. The number of ticking engines being reported back to the OEM may be so small, in the profit & loss world of the auto maker, no action is warranted.

Although no definitive fix has been devised, thru the good work of many on this forum, the use of a more viscous oil than the OEM spec 5w-20, and either one with decent levels of moly, or moly added with an oil supplement, appear to at least mitigate ticking engines, and ought to certainly work to prevent the tick in engines that so far are quiet.

Apologize for the long-ish post, just thinking out loud.
Fantastic post WOW ! I agree 100% Sir !

The VW comparison sounds very similar to the 5.7L Hemi cam failure issues that I have read across this board and others ...once you upgraded to the Schaffers 5w-40 how many miles did you end up putting on yours ?

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Burla, I was just over on Redlines website and noticed that the 5/30 is not designated or whatever you wanna call it for ms6395 but the 10/30 is. I know the ms6395 is kinda a bs thing anyway but what would you recomend?
 

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Funny story , I'm on vacation & yesterday I was in Panama city at an airboat adventures place getting our tickets in advance as a guy drives up in his 13 Ram ticking like a son of a *****!

I'm telling ya it sounded like a ball peen hammer smacking the hell out of a 3" steel square stock ! No Joke !

LOL I couldn't help myself !

Short conversation as I was in a hurry , but I asked his year & mileage he said 2013 & 50 K , I then asked about his hell of a tick & he said he was told by his dealer it was an exhaust leak about a month ago so he had them replace the manifolds , gaskets & new bolts and the sound didn't change .
Then they told him IT WAS NORMAL AND IT'S CALLED THE HEMI TICK !

WTF !

I asked him what oil he was using he proudly said Royal Purple .....LOL
I asked the weight he said he doesn't remember but it's what the manual calls for ...LOL

I told him my 14 5.7L has the same miles as his and it runs quiet and sounds nothing like his and his ticking is definitely not normal.
He asked what oil I ran I told him I'm running 30wt REDLINE , I swear to y'all he said I was the 2nd person to tell him that !
LOL I couldn't believe it ! And the noise his 5.7L was making I could hear over the gravel parking lot he was driving in .....can't make this stuff up !

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Redlines best oil is their 5w30, that is what I run.
 
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You didn't educate the man on moly Lonnie? and rp has none?
 

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I believe the 10W-30 Redline has more Molybdenum, Phosphorus, Zinc & Calcium.

My next oci will be 50/50 mix of Redline 5w-30 & Redline 10w-30 and a RP20-820 Filter.

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Ok I did not know that. That may change things. But this is how I judge an oil, first the triangle and then viscosity index if it is different between the oils. When considering these, redline's 5w30 base oil is better then their 10w30. here's the stats...

Both have a noack of 6 so that's a wash.

The lower the VI, the greater the change of viscosity of the oil with temperature and vice versa.

10w30 VI 155, visc at 100 11.4, hths 3.5
5w30 VI 165, visc at 100 11.9, hths 3.7


So you tell me which oil is better?
 

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I'm sold. My 2011 just turned 45,000 miles. Im switching from 5w-30 Penzoil Platinum to Redline 5w-30.


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Ok I did not know that. That may change things. But this is how I judge an oil, first the triangle and then viscosity index if it is different between the oils. When considering these, redline's 5w30 base oil is better then their 10w30. here's the stats...

Both have a noack of 6 so that's a wash.

The lower the VI, the greater the change of viscosity of the oil with temperature and vice versa.

10w30 VI 155, visc at 100 11.4, hths 3.5
5w30 VI 165, visc at 100 11.9, hths 3.7


So you tell me which oil is better?
Hmm , both look pretty damn good imo .

SyN posted a VOA to RL 10W-30 via a bitog post a couple weeks ago and I noticed the Molybdenum, Phosphorus, Zinc & Calcium were higher than what I had seen on the 5W-30 RL , So I'm planning on a 50/50 mix for my next oci...

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Redlines 5w30 defy's what other oil trends are.

Usually the shorter the spread between the winter rating and the oils weight, the stronger the oil will perform in the triangle. Most oils use VImprovers to get the swing in winter rating, clearly with redline's 5w30 that isn't the case. Look at what happens to Amsoils noack versus weight. Lower VI leeds to better numbers in the triangle, simply not the case between redline 5w30 and 10w30. Super car builders love redline 5w20 and 5w30.

Amsoils old numbers when their base was high ester back in 2000.
10w30 VI 167 Noack 6.6%
5w30 VI 182 Noack 6.9%
0w30 VI 196 Noack 9.2% see the cost? high VI good but noack gets hammered.
Nobody would say amsoils base oil is better at 0w30. Biggest swing between winter rating and weight leads to a less superior oil base.

Amsoils numbers now.

5w30 NOACK- 7.5 hths 3.1 visc at 100 -10.5 VI 163

10w30 noack 5.3 hths 3.1 visc at 100= 10-4 VI 156

0w30 noack 8.4, so still here is where the cost for the swing shows up. Sometimes it wont be noack but something else in the triangle like hths or visc at 100. But redline defy's this trend, their best oil imo is their 5w30.

Two really good oils Amsoil and Redline, in Amsoil I would say their 10w30 looks better then their 5w30, even though their VI is higher for 5w30. So I believe VI is a helpful guide, but not as important as visc at 100, hths, and noack - in that order.

Now this is just judging the base oil, additives are something different. Most oils stay similar, an example is Amsoils base number, an incredible 12.6 for any Amsoil weight oil, across the board tbn 12.6 starting. Redline doesn't post their starting tbn's like Amsoil, it would be nice if they did.
 
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My truck is simply loving Redline 5w30. It's whisper quiet and idles smooth as silk.

I ran Redline 0w30 last winter and it definitely isn't as good as their 5w30. My Hemi just wasn't this quiet on it.

I give Amsoil a lot of credit for keeping their 0w oils very close to their 5w and 10w oils.
 

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My truck is simply loving Redline 5w30. It's whisper quiet and idles smooth as silk.

I ran Redline 0w30 last winter and it definitely isn't as good as their 5w30. My Hemi just wasn't this quiet on it.

I give Amsoil a lot of credit for keeping their 0w oils very close to their 5w and 10w oils.

Amsoil is for sure trying to bank on the 0w craze. Its the new kid on the block, and they are creating some of the best 0w's out there. I have to admit that living in michigan, although not the coldes state by any means, i love have 0w for the bellow zero days here. Just need to tweek my oci's so i can routinely change to a 0w for winter.

I do find it interesting that the redline 5w30 is slightly more robust than the 10w30.
 

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U&A, are you running redline 0w40 in your 6.4?
 

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Quote:
"I do find it interesting that the redline 5w30 is slightly more robust than the 10w30."

Post both those up and let's take a look at them I posted the 10W-30 a while back and it was ridiculously robust. I think you might have that backwards


RL 10W-30
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4452642/Red_Line_10W-30#Post4452642

0W oils are ideal for the Winter daily drivers!
Most seem to run them yr round with very positive results.

It's still leaves me scratching my head why Pennzoil & the SRT team selected a 0W oil for all of their high-performance/high horse power engines instead of creating a 5W-40.
 
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To answer the question about my VW with the PD diesel and the cam failures associated with those engines;
I had a 2006 Jetta with that engine. At roughly 12K miles I read about the cam/lifter follower issues with it. I pulled the valve cover and found slight beginnings of what looked like abnormal wear. This was while using the VW specified 505.01 (VW spec) oil for the PD engine. I then switched to the Schaeffers 5w-40 synthetic diesel oil, primarily because of that oil's moly content. I drove the vehicle until it had approx 70K miles. At that time I again pulled the valve cover and found the abnormal wear had increased (on the cam lobes and followers that activated the fuel injectors), though it didn't appear severe yet.

Deciding to cut my losses (I had other mechanical issues with that car, none of which were acknowledged by VW, and all repaired personally, such as replacing the failing dual mass flywheel with a solid flywheel/clutch from a VW VR6, even though VW had issued a world-wide recall for the DM flywheels everywhere except North America, etc), I sold it with full disclosure.
The buyer was more enamored with the 55 mpg @ 70 mph, and didn't care about what would happen in about 50K more miles, if Schaeffers, or another high moly oil like Redlines own excellent diesel offerings were used, or sooner if another oil was used.
 

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Quote:
"I do find it interesting that the redline 5w30 is slightly more robust than the 10w30."

Post both those up and let's take a look at them I posted the 10W-30 a while back and it was ridiculously robust. I think you might have that backwards


RL 10W-30
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4452642/Red_Line_10W-30#Post4452642

0W oils are ideal for the Winter daily drivers!
Most seem to run them yr round with very positive results.

It's still leaves me scratching my head why Pennzoil & the SRT team selected a 0W oil for all of their high-performance/high horse power engines instead of creating a 5W-40.

Yes i did
 

U&A

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Quote:
"I do find it interesting that the redline 5w30 is slightly more robust than the 10w30."

Post both those up and let's take a look at them I posted the 10W-30 a while back and it was ridiculously robust. I think you might have that backwards


RL 10W-30
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4452642/Red_Line_10W-30#Post4452642

0W oils are ideal for the Winter daily drivers!
Most seem to run them yr round with very positive results.

It's still leaves me scratching my head why Pennzoil & the SRT team selected a 0W oil for all of their high-performance/high horse power engines instead of creating a 5W-40.


I wonder if it's because they knew they were going to be using it in the heavy duty truck as well and they were anticipating a lot of cold weather use with the truck for plowing and such and maybe they only wanted to make one oil for both the SRT's
and the truck. Not saying it's right but maybe they didn't want to put the effort and money into developing two oils


Im Just spitballin here
 
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