Fuel system cleaning

geekything · Sep 10, 2017

My oil change place keeps trying to sell me fuel system cleaning at $100+ every 24,000km. Is this just a bit of a scam?

I've refused so far and am at 32,000km. I will admit I do feel performance has tapered off a bit.

I can't find anything in the RAM documentation about needing to do fuel system cleaning. And I have my doubts that a can of compressed gunk really helps.

Am I misguided? Am I now destroying my engine?

Thanks in advance.

Burla · Sep 10, 2017

Run a PEA cleaner for a while, Redline S1, Amsoil, or techron among highest % PEA. This cleans injectors and combustion chamber. Now, Sea Foam through vacuum lines cleans combustion chamber better, but does nothing for injectors. You can do both, but I would do that separately. Do sea foam first, maybe after a week run a couple bottles redline s1 the next couple gas tanks. Someone like you should look at a catch can as well, it stops the junk from going back through the engine. I wouldn't pay 100 bucks, but the service is a good idea. I get my s1 ebay 6 packs incredibly cheap.

geekything · Sep 10, 2017

Burla said:
Run a PEA cleaner for a while, Redline S1, Amsoil, or techron among highest % PEA. This cleans injectors and combustion chamber. Now, Sea Foam through vacuum lines cleans combustion chamber better, but does nothing for injectors. You can do both, but I would do that separately. Do sea foam first, maybe after a week run a couple bottles redline s1 the next couple gas tanks. Someone like you should look at a catch can as well, it stops the junk from going back through the engine. I wouldn't pay 100 bucks, but the service is a good idea. I get my s1 ebay 6 packs incredibly cheap.

Thanks for the advice. The oil change place has some sort of compressed can of magic stuff? I don't know if it chemically or physically cleans.

They are heavily inferring, without saying it, that I'm affecting my warranty if I don't do it. Not sure if this is a Canadian thing or not (I'm in Canada).

huntergreen · Sep 10, 2017

I have had good results with techron. Easily available at Wal-Mart. Use it a few times in a row, then follow instructions. I have never had an issue with fuel system on any vehicle when using techron. Might also look at catch cans.

Burla · Sep 10, 2017

Tell him you were considering it until he got all pushy and ****.

Casper · Sep 11, 2017

geekything said:
Thanks for the advice. The oil change place has some sort of compressed can of magic stuff? I don't know if it chemically or physically cleans.

They are heavily inferring, without saying it, that I'm affecting my warranty if I don't do it. Not sure if this is a Canadian thing or not (I'm in Canada).

They may be offering BG which is a popular product, or a commercial product they can put a big mark up on. Either way if you are capable you can get the performance plus without the dealer mark up.

Also advice on catch can is spot on. My Throttle body stays nice and clean, I didn't need the Seafoam until about 55K miles.

Seafoam comes in a compressed can of 'stuff' with a little red hose to go into your throttle body for about $14 US, or the Seafoam liquid you can put in through a brake vacuum booster line is about $7 US.

I buy Techron by the case at the warehouse store.

BossHogg · Sep 12, 2017

The additives in your gasoline should require no additional cleaning of your fuel system, the reason additives are in the gas to start with, at least in the US and I can only assume Canada is the same.

So buying additional fuel system cleaners is simply wasting your money unless you are getting the "feel good" in return for your hard earned money.

SyN · Sep 12, 2017

BossHogg said:
The additives in your gasoline should require no additional cleaning of your fuel system, the reason additives are in the gas to start with, at least in the US and I can only assume Canada is the same.

So buying additional fuel system cleaners is simply wasting your money unless you are getting the "feel good" in return for your hard earned money.

So is Wasting $$$ on a CAI / Thousands of $$$ in Audio Systems / $3K-$4K on Wheels & Tires / Tuners & Programers / I could go on & on but here are a few Huge Ones:-----> Waste of $$$ : Drugs / Dipping (*****) / Smoking !!!!! But Millions of fine Folks do these (Waste of $$$) every second-Minute-Hour of Every day.

Me Personally? I would much rather have a Fuel Additive addiction! So much less wasted $$$.
(I spend $32.45 every six months for ALL of the family autos for fuel additive).
The OLD fuel additive -->Waste of $$$ catch phrase is ridiculously WEAK!

What does a carton of Cancer cost a week? Or a Roll of *****? ---->These 2 are A totally Legit waste of your so called HARD Earned $$$!

Burla · Sep 12, 2017

BossHogg said:
The additives in your gasoline should require no additional cleaning of your fuel system, the reason additives are in the gas to start with, at least in the US and I can only assume Canada is the same.

So buying additional fuel system cleaners is simply wasting your money unless you are getting the "feel good" in return for your hard earned money.

For sure, trust the gov't and the gas companies to make a product that will make your truck last forever because that is their goal. Gas quality we are forced to live with. As long as having an upper cylinder lube and PEA cleaner is legal, I will be buying it. This gov't is so aggressive with making low quality gas and diesel, I wouldn't doubt for one second they will outlaw quality treatments in oil and gas at some point.

BossHogg · Sep 13, 2017

SyN said:
So is Wasting $$$ on a CAI / Thousands of $$$ in Audio Systems / $3K-$4K on Wheels & Tires / Tuners & Programers / I could go on & on but here are a few Huge Ones:-----> Waste of $$$ : Drugs / Dipping (*****) / Smoking !!!!! But Millions of fine Folks do these (Waste of $$$) every second-Minute-Hour of Every day.

Me Personally? I would much rather have a Fuel Additive addiction! So much less wasted $$$.
(I spend $32.45 every six months for ALL of the family autos for fuel additive).
The OLD fuel additive -->Waste of $$$ catch phrase is ridiculously WEAK!

What does a carton of Cancer cost a week? Or a Roll of *****? ---->These 2 are A totally Legit waste of your so called HARD Earned $$$!

I'm thinking you have a point in there somewhere but couldn't find it. I have to laugh when you attempt to compare gasoline additives with all the other crap you listed. Too much crack for you.

Gasoline is a refined product, the difference between brands is the additives each brand adds and brags about. While the government does require some of the additives, the brands do the rest and mostly for marketing to make their product stand out.

Buying an additive is just adding what is already in the gas hence wasting money, like buying a bottle of water to pour into the lake.

Burla said:
For sure, trust the gov't and the gas companies to make a product that will make your truck last forever because that is their goal. Gas quality we are forced to live with. As long as having an upper cylinder lube and PEA cleaner is legal, I will be buying it. This gov't is so aggressive with making low quality gas and diesel, I wouldn't doubt for one second they will outlaw quality treatments in oil and gas at some point.

I thought the thread was about gasoline additives that will clean the internals of the engine, not about ethanol. In the old days, back when we had metal gas tanks, we would buy cans of a product called "white gas" or "dry gas" to rid the fuel systems of water. Dry gas was pure ethanol.

Vehicles do not last forever, don't know how you came to that conclusion. I typically keep my vehicles for around 10 years and put on around 300,000 miles with nothing more than scheduled maintenance.

SyN · Sep 13, 2017

Your Weak A$$ Quote:--->"I'm thinking you have a point in there somewhere but couldn't find it. I have to laugh when you attempt to compare gasoline additives with all the other crap you listed. Too much crack for you."

You over looked my point due to you are one who Thinks he is always right! You brought up wasting or wasted $$$. Every subject I posted above is wasted $$$.
Some to the extreme way more then others.

Buying and adding a fuel additive or cleaner is only a fraction of the cost of everyone of those listed.
Yet in some cases reported: After adding a couple bottles or double dose of Fuel System Cleaner the hesitation or rough idle is gone. I have read & heard this quote many times over. "As well as experienced this same result myself."

My point is there! You just neglect to to see it due to your arrogance!

When you refer to Crack & Myself in the same sentence you just prove you have no dam clue what you are talking about!

Casper · Sep 13, 2017

BossHogg said:
The additives in your gasoline should require no additional cleaning of your fuel system, the reason additives are in the gas to start with, at least in the US and I can only assume Canada is the same.

So buying additional fuel system cleaners is simply wasting your money unless you are getting the "feel good" in return for your hard earned money.

You are free to have an opinion and exercise it in caring for your own vehicle--even be a skeptic if you insist.

But you should not provide intentionally bad advice to others. Just as certain materials in fuel varnish metal, certain chemicals can dissolve those deposits without disassembling the engine. More importantly, these additives do no harm, unlike your advice.
Eschew additives for your own vehicle if you want, but I would suggest forceful advocacy against them is a disservice to those with a less calcified set of beliefs.

I have to ask when was the last time you took apart a gas engine that had seen nothing but oil and plug changes over its life, especially one that has done a lot of short trips in cold weather--or had to rebuild heads because the valves or valve seats were failing? The combustion and induction systems are never spotless--oh no, far from it. Diesels can be even nastier when they finally go.

1) The design of the Hemi PCV ENSURES there will be varnishing and build up in the induction system from the entrained motor oil and combustion byproducts in the blow buy it evacuates. A bit less so in OP's 3.6L, but the principle still applies.

2) Gasoline breaks down over time in the dealer's tanks and the vehicle's tank. Gasoline also has component parts that breakdown and change under heat--before ignition, and that includes more than just ethanol, or entrained water. This occurs for example, when in contact with the hot metal of the intake valves since the Hemi is not direct injected. Add in the PCV waste for engines without catch can protection and the induction system WILL varnish-up and build deposits over time.

3) Injectors can also varnish over time. You've got a diesel and its even more common to clog injectors there--and diesel fuel is even more likely to carry unwanted junk or micro-entrained air that pounds your injectors apart--but that's a different discussion.

4) Exhaust valve seats in particular collect combustion by products that impede valve sealing and decrease engine output.

Burla · Sep 13, 2017

I don't need my truck to last forever, just til I die. I will do what I can to help that along. For now I have something to combat the governments assault on gas quality... A great cleaner and upper cylinder lube.

huntergreen · Sep 13, 2017

Boss, I remember dry gas. As I recall, there were to two types, one was a chemical can't recall the name, that clogged fuel lines. The other was isopropyl alcohol mixed in. Neither were for fuel system cleaning.

Casper · Sep 13, 2017

huntergreen said:
Boss, I remember dry gas. As I recall, there were to two types, one was a chemical can't recall the name, that clogged fuel lines. The other was isopropyl alcohol mixed in. Neither were for fuel system cleaning.

Spot on Hunter!

According to Wiki:
"Drygas is an alcohol-based additive used in automobiles to prevent any water in the fuel from freezing, or to restore combustive power to gasoline spoiled by water. The name Drygas is actually a registered trademarked brand name, owned by Cristy Corporation. It is a liquid that is added into the fuel tank, that absorbs the water and keeps it in solution. Some brands contained methanol and some contain isopropyl alcohol."

BossHogg · Sep 13, 2017

huntergreen said:
Boss, I remember dry gas. As I recall, there were to two types, one was a chemical can't recall the name, that clogged fuel lines. The other was isopropyl alcohol mixed in. Neither were for fuel system cleaning.

Agreed albeit I was fairly young and my Dad would buy it and put it in during the winter. Fuel line freeze ups were very common back in those days.

I'm sorry for any confusion I may cause but I was not suggesting dry gas was a fuel system cleaner, just making a reference to the old days since ethanol was brought up for some reason by another poster.

BossHogg · Sep 13, 2017

Casper said:
You are free to have an opinion and exercise it in caring for your own vehicle--even be a skeptic if you insist.

But you should not provide intentionally bad advice to others. Just as certain materials in fuel varnish metal, certain chemicals can dissolve those deposits without disassembling the engine. More importantly, these additives do no harm, unlike your advice.
Eschew additives for your own vehicle if you want, but I would suggest forceful advocacy against them is a disservice to those with a less calcified set of beliefs.

I have to ask when was the last time you took apart a gas engine that had seen nothing but oil and plug changes over its life, especially one that has done a lot of short trips in cold weather--or had to rebuild heads because the valves or valve seats were failing? The combustion and induction systems are never spotless--oh no, far from it. Diesels can be even nastier when they finally go.

1) The design of the Hemi PCV ENSURES there will be varnishing and build up in the induction system from the entrained motor oil and combustion byproducts in the blow buy it evacuates. A bit less so in OP's 3.6L, but the principle still applies.

2) Gasoline breaks down over time in the dealer's tanks and the vehicle's tank. Gasoline also has component parts that breakdown and change under heat--before ignition, and that includes more than just ethanol, or entrained water. This occurs for example, when in contact with the hot metal of the intake valves since the Hemi is not direct injected. Add in the PCV waste for engines without catch can protection and the induction system WILL varnish-up and build deposits over time.

3) Injectors can also varnish over time. You've got a diesel and its even more common to clog injectors there--and diesel fuel is even more likely to carry unwanted junk or micro-entrained air that pounds your injectors apart--but that's a different discussion.

4) Exhaust valve seats in particular collect combustion by products that impede valve sealing and decrease engine output.

And this is why the government requires minimal additives and brands enhance the additives, to keep the fuel system clean. Not my opinion or advice, simply reading and understanding what I've read and applying the knowledge.

From the owners' manual

"Materials Added To Fuel

All gasoline sold in the United States is required to contain effective detergent additives. Use of additional detergents or other additives is not needed under normal conditions and they would result in additional cost.
Therefore, you should not have to add anything to the fuel."

geekything · Sep 14, 2017

So, I couldn't find some of the recommended fuel system cleaners locally (they were expensive on Amazon here in Canada, too). So I went down to my local Canadian Tire and found STP Complete Fuel System Cleaner. And it was on sale.

Subjectively, I've found:

- The low RPM "struggle" my truck seems to have has disappeared
- I swear the V6 is running smoother overall

Now, the cleaner is still in the fuel tank so it's possible the effect will disappear on the next tank of fuel. We'll see.

I would have gotten my boroscope out to do some objective analysis of carbon build-up, but I seem to have misplaced it

I definitely wouldn't spend $100 for a lube place to do this. But I could see myself buying a can of Seafoam on next oil change.

69GWC · Sep 14, 2017

The whole thing is the gas companys might send out perfectly cleam fuel but there are enough opportunities for dirt to get into the fuel, nothing wrong with putting in some good fuel system cleaner from time to time imo.

huntergreen · Sep 15, 2017

Bosshog, in a perfect world, you would be 100% correct. In fact, you may be 100% correct, but there is top tier gas and then the others. I guess that means some gas exceeds the minimum standards. All I can say is that using techron twice a year hasn't hurt anything and maybe it has helped. It's not costly, so the worst case scenario is that I waste 10 bucks a year. Like a catch can, does it help keep things clean ? I think it has to judging by the contents I empty. Was it a waste of dollars ? Possibly, but it won't hurt hurt anything. So far on my 11 ram, traded at only 60000 miles, no fuel system issues. Hoping for the same on my 16. Wife's 04 grand Cherokee limited, no issues at all used techron as x2 per year. No catch can. Went 230000 miles without issues. No doubt she always used the cheapest fuel she could find.

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