Synthetic Oil

This was during my commute from Houston to New Orleans. 8speed, RL 5w30, OEM T-Stat, Not towing, ~70mph average.



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HTX16RamExp said:

This was during my commute from Houston to New Orleans. 8speed, RL 5w30, OEM T-Stat, Not towing, ~70mph average.

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Pretty close to mine with a 190 T-Stat, Shutter Delete, and eFan swap. At similar outdoor temps/speeds my coolant is about 195, oil usually right at 212, and transmission between 185-190.

Yep after all these posts and the other information out there, I'm going to do the pan drop fluid change method at about 40,000 miles....

Burla said:

Optimal gas mileage temperature, I wonder if there is a delete for the tranny warmer.

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It is possible to completely remove the transmission heater on the 8-speeds in our trucks, tho it takes some "tinkering". I got ahold of a used heater assembly (price was right = $0) from a wrecked vehicle. The heater assembly is really two parts bolted together: the heater itself, that has the connections for the engine coolant, and a cast aluminum "manifold" that plugs into the transmission case via two o-ringed short tubes (for ATF to flow in and out of the assembly), and also connects to the lines running to the transmission cooler.

If you separate the two pieces, the two internal ports on the "manifold" , where the ATF flows in and out of the heater section, can be plugged by tapping for 1/8 NPT pipe plugs. The "manifold" can then be re-attached to the transmission case (bolts to it), and the lines to the transmission cooler re-attached. The TBV, is also located in that "manifold", and should be removed, and it's o-ringed plastic cap reinstalled. The two coolant lines can be simply connected to each other, keeping that coolant circuit intact. Coolant will still flow as directed by the ECM controlled valve in the engine compartment, just no longer thru the heater.

Doing all of this tho mandates having a lift, as the ATF cooler lines and coolant lines are on the very top of the transmission case and very difficult to even touch when laying on the ground under the vehicle, let alone try and remove.

If one did all of that, the ATF would flow unrestricted and continually thru the trans cooler, and not be heated at all by engine coolant. The transmission may take a real long time to warm up in cooler, or cold weather though.

http://www.digi-panel.com/trannyoil.htm

http://www.tciauto.com/tc/trans-life-expectancy/

Both these links give an ideal range and the 180 I threw out there is the low end of that range. The first link mentions briefly about running a trans too cold. This was a quick look as I am at work and don't have time to do a deep dive on Google. I did take a serious look with my last truck (2003 F150) as it had a tiny trans cooler and I was worried it was getting too hot towing (it was). I ended up putting a trans cooler off an F250 super duty and a digital trans temp gauge on it. The trans tech that rebuilt the trans in my brothers 67 Nova told him 180 was a good operating temp, so I assumed he knew what he was talking about. Take it for what you will.

Great post thanks for that, nagging problems always show up in the form of heat, so I would keep an open mind, but need proof that my transmission that has been running for 8 years at 136f is actually bad for it. I do understand the oil is 3 times thicker at that temp compared to the 200f that link says is good, but how would that be a bad thing? I also understand that would be bad for gas mileage, but longevity? More research needs to be done.

Here is an informative PDF on API Classification. It shows what rules apply to what weights, but also really delves into what they are trying to accomplish with oils that get the API cert. It certainly is not all bad like many of us think. There are things such as minimum detergent levels and such that are hugely important. This applies to any oil getting the API donut, and when you read it clearly you will see Redline wouldn't qualify as they have to many anti wear metals and wont meet future calcium level requirements. They say "phos" but really that means ZDDP as that is what is primarily used by oil companies where phos is combined with zinc.

Wiki ZDDP, I was surprised even wiki spelled out API only monitors 20 and 30 weight oils for anti wear additives. This is why auto manu's and oil companies look at 0w40 to make super class oils.

That begs the question...why do manufacturers even bother making 0W-40 a "super class" oil? Surely most of the buying public wouldn't use it. Some of us do but I assume we are the extreme minority. And even the vehicles it might be intended for (super high performance stuff) are so few, surely the manufacturers are making better $$$ elsewhere. So why make a 0W-40 so good when it probably doesnt sell much, most people have no idea about it, etc.

Hell, why not sell an OCI additive booster that would turn any 5W-20 or 5W-30 into said "super class" oil? I get the weight isnt there, but they could add in enough ZDDP, Moly, etc.

chrisbh17 said:

That begs the question...why do manufacturers even bother making 0W-40 a "super class" oil? Surely most of the buying public wouldn't use it. Some of us do but I assume we are the extreme minority. And even the vehicles it might be intended for (super high performance stuff) are so few, surely the manufacturers are making better $$$ elsewhere. So why make a 0W-40 so good when it probably doesnt sell much, most people have no idea about it, etc.

Hell, why not sell an OCI additive booster that would turn any 5W-20 or 5W-30 into said "super class" oil? I get the weight isnt there, but they could add in enough ZDDP, Moly, etc.

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Because people are looking like 0w40 as a 40 weight, but any body studying oil realizes the super class oils that I am talking about spend much more of their life as a 30 weight. They are made specifically on the low end of what's allowed near 12 cSt plus chalked full of vii's that shred away within 500 miles, the exact opposite of what 30 weights are made as, or even 20 weights. Well until recently oil companies made oils for protection, the high end of the allowed visc to make weight. Super Class is a 30 weight with a 40 weight title that surely will be on the high end of 30 weight for visc with no API hand cuffs. Oil manu's attempt to make an oil to serve a need, they do not want after market additives used to achieve this. They do not like the gov't in their formula, that is why they skirt rules to make super class oils. 0w40 are the best 5w30's on the market, great cold properties, great additives, great visc for a 30 weight and no gov't in the formula. This is why FCA and Pennzoil bothered to make PUP 0w40 hemi juice. Appreciate what they've done, they did it for Ram owners.

Anybody running 0w40 PUP and 5w30 redline, I guarantee redline will be thicker on an average oil change interval. Redline wont shear away but PUP will by design. Not saying which is better, both are great, but this is a fact.

Thanks for the info. Still toying with the idea of letting the dealer do all my all changes but the idea of 20W still irks me. Use MaxCare if it ever becomes a problem but again I just feel wrong using something that might cause damage in the long run.

Getting back to the transmission durability issue, doesn’t Verndiesel have like damn near 500K miles on his stock 8spd Auto with no rebuilds yet and he uses Valvoline max life ATF and changes it like every 50,000 miles or something. Also I recall him saying that 90% of his miles are towing. Honestly I don’t think the vast majority of us have anything to worry about transmission durability wise sticking with reasonable service intervals.

I think the key for ANY automatic transmission is changing the fluid well ahead of the manufacturers recommendations. My wifes Acura had a trans with a know design issue that caused it to heat up and burn fluid LONG before the fluid was supposed to be changed. Acura speced 60K miles, people that dealt with the issue started doing 30K mile drain/refill times 3. That never fixed the issue, but it did keep the fluid fresh enough where it would still lubricate.

Point being, changing every 30-40K regardless of the trans or what the manufacturer says to do is a good way to prevent future issues, IMHO.

I think the 8HP7X trans are quite good, robust, etc. But to think its a lifetime fluid (for whatever they define as lifetime) is just laughable. At BEST maybe 60K, but even with the expensive fluid and a little bit complicated process, I will be doing mine every 30-40K.

Another option is to drain the pan, note how much came out, then add back in that amount. But do it once every or every other oil change. You wont be getting 100% of the fluid each time, but over a few oil changes you'll end up swapping out most of the fluid with fresh stuff anyway.

Amen. I know I am guilty of OC preventive maint. But 230k miles on a 03 1500 5.7 that towed most of its life. Still shifts perfect. Fluid and two filters every 25K.

In the case of our old Acura it was found that MaxLife ATF was actually better than the Honda stuff (DW-1 IIRC).

But in the case of our 8HP7x trans, it doesnt look like a universal fluid is the best idea. Even with the expense of the "Mopar or genuine ZF stuff, I still say its worth 1 drain and refill every other oil change or so.

There will always be those stories, to date the number one argument at bob's is can you prove synthetic oil will make your vehicles engine last longer, to date you still can't prove this. But most of us put some thought into how we take care of our vehicles and share the info, and always respect all the good stories out there.

I will say, if you have one of those 8 speeds that get hot, there is a temp not so far off that will cook the transmission and will need a rebuild. Most of the paper out there is that temp is somewhere around 300f. Now if you have a usual temp at 220f that I've seen at least a couple guys post as much, and that shoots up to 240f when your towing, now add some high ambient temps and maybe a steep grade, and you just screwed the pooch if you aren't using PAO or pao/esters like the manu says too. Just being devils advocate there, sean also towed with his eco diesel and used the same oil you stated with a 40k interval and he had no issues. But I would pay attention if you happen to have a set circumstances that I just pointed out, likely that exact thing happens every day across America. On hot days have evic set to trans temp, if that hits 250f, pull over and have a burger or something.

To be honest I wouldn't mind selling my c+ and getting some atf4 because my trans temp hasn't even seen 140f even when towing if I am remembering correctly, lol. But there is a group of guys that run hot temps here, they should put some thought into it.

Ester/pao bases oils will be in every oil hole on my truck besides power steering (. I just change it out once a year with regular atf+4)

My trans will get a pan drop fluid change and both filters every 30,000 miles max.

If i had the 8speed it would have redline in it after the first 10,000 and be change every 30,000 after that.

JMO,

Listen esters are better with heat then anything including PAO, so if I had the 8 speed which kinda runs hot from time to time, I would definitely use ester based Redline d6 for less money then zf PAO fluid. It just makes better sense.

mcclintock89 said:

Control system, royal purple, or valvoline synpower? Which would you or do you use? Also is the oil change message triggered by a specific mileage engine hour or what?

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Mobil 1 5W-40 / Purolator filter, B done with it for pitty sake.

scHemi said:

i developed the hemi tap so thats why I am considering switching to Amsoil after I use up m mobil1

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When you think AMSOIL, think Sears. AMSOIL does not produce anything, they simply buy product and repackage it and market it relying on consumer loyalty. EXXON MOBILE and some others (Penziol) extract the oil, refine oil and develope the product chemically, they have "skin in the game", are product developers and pioneers of the technology.