One problem Rampant and it is right on the tech sheet for hths, that test is taking at 150c, or 302F. Why would it be fair to gauge an ester oil versus a mineral oil at 300 plus degrees? To gauge an oils performance, we must gauge them in the temperatures they operate in. Not only viscosity at 100, but visc at 40c, and
viscosity index (how the oil flows throughout the relevant temperature band). Do you know m1's viscosity index is better then redline's? Just like they have similar visc at 100 in 20 weight.
And when you see how bases act under load per Falex load-to-seizure per one of the top oil guys on the planet. Goggle it if you want to read more molakules thread.
Pentaerythritol (polyol Ester) - 3,400 psi
TrimethylPropane (polyol Ester) - 3,200 psi
Dibasic Acid Ester - 2,000 psi
PAO - 1,900 PSI
Chlorophenylmethyl Siloxane - 1,100 psi
Petroleum Oil - 750 psi
Methyl alkyl silicone - 725 psi
So the fact that Redline falls into the top categories here we should call it a "different" viscosity Rampart? Even though it flows at the same speed 20 weight? You still think any oil can compete with esters? And one thing I don't know is what would be the beneficial amount of moly, as you say any oil should do. What about Amsoil? High moly, surely higher the average, and when a guy with a tick went from redline and his quiet lifter to amsoil ss, his tick came back. And when he went back to redline it went away again, and then he went with 0w40 PUP higher moly then Amsoil and it stayed away. But that relates to viscosity how?
I respect the ideas, every way we gauge oil versus temperature is flawed, like you say loopholes are revealed. But those loopholes exist in all tests, hths included. Looking forward to response.
Whoa... that's a mouthful. I'll give it a go.
1. Yes, I agree that oils should be tested at temperatures they are used in to ascertain their actual chemical properties within given parameters. I didn't dig too deep for those figures. I'm positive they are out there on Al Gore's WWW.
2. No, I didn't know Mobil1 had a better visc index. See my comments earlier concerning oils sold at walmart. I pay no attention to them. They could be the best thing in the world, although I highly doubt it. That's just me.
3. Yes, esters definitely perform the best under pressure. The problem is, they cannot be used by themselves in motors. All fluids require magic potions to meet the end goal. Here are a few reasons some of the best esters can only be used in small quantities:
Polyol and Diesters- Can only be used by themselves in low viscosities, poor hydrolytic stability, and limited seal compatibility.
Where these really shine are when mixed with certain PAOs. PAOs take advantage of the esters' low temp flow capabilities and their additive solubility. PAOs inherently shrink seals and Esters generally expand them. The magic is in the recipe; what type of mix and how much of each. Ancient Chinese secret!
4. No, it shouldn't be a "different" viscosity. I do understand where you're going with that line, but viscosity is and will always be the ratio of the shearing stress to the velocity gradient in a fluid, no matter what trickery oil companies use to further the peddling of their wares.
5. Compete with esters... Esters can't be used by themselves. Most great oils are a mixture of esters and POAs. See #3.
6. Why did RL clear up Hemi's tick twice? Hard to say. Could very well be coincidental with so few examples. I know he's not the only one, but his example is surely not the benchmark from which all tickers should abide. I also take into account that there has really been no other magic liquid claimed to have quieted down a Hemi within these walls. Why? Good question.
7. But that relates to viscosity how... ? Well, when a lifter is collapsed, it needs pressure to pump it back up. During startup, a collapsed lifter is no longer in constant contact with the cam lobe and valve at both ends and the sound you hear is a combo of the valve smacking the lifter because there is slack, or "lash" as it is referred to. The lifter is moving about its bore as opposed to remaining in contact and cushioning the blow of the valve as it should until it gets "pumped up" with oil pressure again.
A higher viscosity can help to seemingly quell that sound by acting as more of a cushion than a lower viscosity oil can. Think about 2 jars with ball bearings in them, each half full. One has thinner oil and the other has thicker oil, each also filled half way. Shake the jars. Which one is louder? The bearings in the higher visc jar move slower, so they hit the ends of the jar at a slower rate creating less noise. Now apply that to the collapsed lifter being violently smacked out of its seat to-and-fro until it is pumped back up.
The OP is 100% correct here. No oil will ever correct a malfunctioning lifter, but rather apply a bandaid. The real answer to his original question is to have the lifters checked properly. The problem lies in getting a dealership to do (under warranty) what every mechanic in there worth his salt knows is right. That problem can go for years and years without any real problems availing themselves. At this infantile point in his Hemi's life, what's in it for them besides a happy customer? They gotta keep the lights on...
I completely agree on the loopholes and testing temps. We are at the mercy of the whatever test data one can dig up.
Sweet Jesus, break up the questions into posts next time... I'm spent. lol
Great dialogue. I wish I had the time to do it more often. This thread is really and excellent mix of interesting and pertinent info and experience-based opinions. I truly appreciate the time and effort the heavy hitters in here put into making it what it is. Thank you. I learn a thing or two on the daily. Keep it goin'!
