Rocker Arms Missing -- Damage?

phodgkins · Aug 14, 2017

I am new to Dodge. I just bought a 2004 Ram 1500 with a 4.7 engine. Source is very reliable and reported that truck had lost power and exhibited all signs of a blown head gasket. Now I'm removing the rocker arms in preparation for removing the heads. Removed 2-4-6-8-1-3 no problem. However, when I get to cylinders 5 and 7. One rocker arm was never reinstalled on # 5 (I'm assuming 2 owners back) and one was left just sitting free between the lobes on #7!!!

The original plan was to pull both heads, have shop check them, decide whether to machine or replace, put it all back together and hope it starts up

I'm looking now for any advice on what perhaps I should be looking for damage-wise. The driver side head (1-3-5-7) does appear in worse shape (sludge and rust...sat for 5 months). Any thoughts on reworking the existing heads vs just buying replacements?

Thanks!!

fastf · Aug 14, 2017

First did you buy this truck from someone and it was like that ?If so I hope it hasn't messed up the engine too.But if the engine is good I wouldn't fool having the heads redone I would go with new one with the cams and new rockers.At least you would piece of mind that the heads are right.

RonJon '06 · Aug 14, 2017

Are you sure it's the head gasket? I guess its not uncommon for the rocker arms to become dislodged on the 4.7L. I'm wondering if the head gasket is fine and all you need to do is put the rocker arms back in place.

phodgkins · Aug 15, 2017

Yes...I bought it this way. A friend was using it as a work truck until it started to lose power. He started to work on it, but never even got the valve covers off. The previous owner must have done some work and given up trying to get the rocker arms back in. Since one was missing and one was sitting free. They were both the last ones, under the brake booster where you have to get the tool at them from the bottom...hard placement.

I'm thinking that the right (passenger) head is looking ok and reusing it would be fine. Is there any issue with reusing one head and replacing the other?

phodgkins · Aug 15, 2017

RonJon, I can't swear that the head gasket is blown, but there were some white crystal-like spots on the plugs and the oil on the lash adjusters was a milky brown...so I'm thinking I better just assume it

fastf · Aug 15, 2017

First thing I would do is pull those heads and look at the pistons and cylinders and make sure everything is good.Then look around these junk yards and see if you can get a replacement head.Get it off a engine that is blown or something I would check what would be your best option new or a used head with a used head you are taking a gamble a new head you don't .

chefred112 · Aug 15, 2017

milky brown is definitely a mix of coolant and oil...pull the heads and confirm that the gasket blew/broke...because if they look good it will be a bigger problem because something is probably cracked (head or block)

phodgkins · Aug 16, 2017

That's what I'm afraid of...how often do you hope for a blown head gasket.

I'm pretty hopeful though. The residue on the right intake ports is dark black-ish, while the left is a light brown; some research indicated that coloring is also an indicator of coolant leaking in.

I am hoping to get the heads off in the next two weeks. Working in the Phoenix summer outside, doing this for the first time, and teaching my son at the same time, all work to make it a slow go

When I get the them off I may post some pictures to verify whatever I'm thinking about what I find.

Thanks to you all for being here...this is my first time using a forum like this and it is great to not feel quite so alone in a project like this!

phodgkins · Aug 26, 2017

So I was able to get back at it today in to 110 Phoenix heat. I found a couple of things:

1. The last bearing cap on the camshaft (driver next to firewall) is broken. Half of it was down between the valve springs where I found the rocker arms.

2. I cannot get the timing to line up:
* When the V8's are at 12 o'clock the TDC mark is about 3 to 5 degrees off
* There are no plated links on the timing chain. I've looked and clean both
chains and nothing... (see pictures)

So my questions are:

1. Is it possible that all of the problems are related to the missing cover? If I just replace that and get the 3 rocker arms that were out of place in place, all will be fine? (I know unlikely...but I have to ask

)

2. If I do have to align the timing to take off the heads, how do I figure out the difference with the cam sprockets and the TDC mark...especially with no plated links to help???

I'm attaching pictures of both cam sprockets, the TDC alignment with the V8 on the sprockets and 12 o'clock, and the busted bearing cap.

Any insight is appreciated!!

RonJon '06 · Aug 28, 2017

When I read your first post I was thinking that if the rocker arms came off the engine would lose power and act as if the head gasket was blown. Before going any further I'd check to see what the oil in the pan looks like. As far as the timing goes those marks should line up when the engine is assembled but once it runs the marks and links will move all around, I'm sure you've got some bluish looking links hiding somewhere down by the crankshaft. I'm not a mechanic and I've never worked on a 4.7L but unless you think the timing chain got loose enough to jump a link or two, assuming the oil in the pan looks good I'd just replace the parts on the valvetrain and see if it runs.

phodgkins · Aug 29, 2017

RonJon,

What am I missing here. Why would timing marks jump around? Isn't that the entire point of the timing system/chains...to keep piston and valve movements perfectly timed with each other (especially on an interference engine?)

RonJon '06 · Aug 29, 2017

phodgkins said:
RonJon,

What am I missing here. Why would timing marks jump around? Isn't that the entire point of the timing system/chains...to keep piston and valve movements perfectly timed with each other (especially on an interference engine?)

Yes, but once the timing chain is installed the dots on the sprokets won't line up with the marked links each and every revolution. Those marks are only used to make sure the crank and cam shafts are in the correct position when installing the timing chain.

Jerseystyle · Sep 1, 2017

Might need to start thinking about what caused the cam shaft end cap to break. Maybe the timing jumped and caused some of the damage?

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phodgkins · Sep 1, 2017

Jerseystyle said:
Might need to start thinking about what caused the cam shaft end cap to break. Maybe the timing jumped and caused some of the damage?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Jerseystyle,

Thanks! I was wondering if the offset timing marks and the broken bearing cap could be related. I figured the head would have to come off

Here is my big question... Every manual and site I look at describes aligning all of the timing before removing the heads. What if you can't do that like in my case? Do I just take it all off and align the timing when I put it back together? If so, how do you align timing at that point? I have a guess...but with timing on an interference engine...I really don't want to be guessing

Jerseystyle · Sep 1, 2017

phodgkins said:
Jerseystyle,

Thanks! I was wondering if the offset timing marks and the broken bearing cap could be related. I figured the head would have to come off

Here is my big question... Every manual and site I look at describes aligning all of the timing before removing the heads. What if you can't do that like in my case? Do I just take it all off and align the timing when I put it back together? If so, how do you align timing at that point? I have a guess...but with timing on an interference engine...I really don't want to be guessing

I'm no expert, but I'd say get it to as close to TDC as possible. If it's just slightly off during head removal, I honestly don't think it'll have an effect. I'd be more concerned with what other worms you're going to find. Bearing end caps don't just break.

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phodgkins · Sep 1, 2017

The Plan

OK...I'm out of town this weekend...so next weekend here is my plan...if this is missing anything...please let me know

1. Set TDC using balancer & timing cover markings (cam sprockets will be slightly off)

2. Remove heads per manual (Haynes) with far less care trying to zip tie chains to keep them in place since timing is probably off.

3. Evaluate what I see...post pictures here...pray!

4. Worry about setting timing on reassembly if I ever get that far.

Jerseystyle · Sep 18, 2017

Any updates?

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phodgkins · Sep 21, 2017

Jerseystyle said:
Any updates?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Jerseystyle,

Thanks for checking in

We have not gotten as far as we have wanted (heat and family obligations...)...but we have made some headway and discoveries.

* there are no plated links on the left cam timing chain and an aftermarket bolt on the water pump...so clearly some previous (sub-standard?) work has been done.
* The timing cover is off and whoever placed it last time loves RTV...it is going to take forever to clear all that stuff and the overflow was blocking some passages.

This Saturday...no outside commitments...88 degrees in the desert...those heads are coming off no matter what...please, please, please let the pistons look good!!

phodgkins · Sep 24, 2017

Got the Left head off yesterday. This was the more concerning side and harder to get to with the head bolts under the brake booster. A few more details came to light:

- Actually both of the back two cam bearing caps were busted and there is a crack in the 3rd.
- Also we found another rocker arm...something must be wrong with my math because now I think we are up to +1 rocker arm...yep, going with bad math.
- The left secondary timing chain did have plated links, but the chain had been installed backwards.
- the best news of all...no holes in the pistons!
- there is no obvious, catastrophic failure of the head gasket, but there is a bit of shared white residue between 1 and 3 on the head and a rusty good in #3.

I'm including pics of all left cylinders and valves below before cleaning, if anyone notices anything i should be aware of (my first time...)...(note the small divot on the right side of piston #1 is just a lighting thing...there is no divot...)

thanks!!!

phodgkins · Sep 24, 2017

Here are the valve pics...

Rocker Arms Missing -- Damage?

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