v10 won't smog

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farmbroker1

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1996 Dodge Ram 3500
Engine
8.0l v10
Hello everyone, this is my first post so please bear with me as it will be long.


I have a 1996 Dodge Ram 3500 with the 8.0l v10 engine and automatic transmission. It has 168,000 miles.
I have a persistent P0174 (lean bank 2) code. I have had it at two reputable shops, but after three weeks they each told me they needed to pull off and work on vehicles that they could make money at. I have spent more money on this truck than it is worth, but into the game so far now I can't afford to fold.
I replaced both heads, all the O2 sensors, the cat. converter, the MAP sensor, the spark plugs, the plug wires, the ECM and the code persists. The shops tell me the injectors and the ignition coils are working properly, the fuel pressure is right on and the engine compression is good across the board. We introduced smoke to look for vacuum leaks with negative results.
Bank 2 STFT runs 16.2 at 2500 RPM, LTFT runs 32.8. Should be below 10
Bank 1 STFT runs 6.2 and LTFT runs 9.8. No code for bank 1 yet.
I do have a misfire that I can hear, but no other codes appear.
I've already spent $3000 with shops and still have the problem. I live in California and it won't pass smog the way it is. Does anyone have any idea where to look from here?
Thanks,
Farmbroker1
 

dudeman2009

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The fuel trims indicate to me that the computer is intentionally adding fuel to the passenger side of the engine, the question is why. What is the O2 sensor reading from bank 2, I only care about sensor 1.
 

dapepper9

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What brand of 02s have you used? Were the plugs used copper or something else?

1 good option would be to remove left side injectors and swap them with the right side. Don't mix the 2 sides just swap. If lean condition follows you need to replace injectors, regardless of what the shop says
 

DodgeTx

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probably not good for the long haul, but cant you just clear codes right before your smog inspection, and then they wont come back for a few miles?

We do not have smog in the part of TX where I live so I do not know the process or how long it takes.

Also, If you need a temp tag, you can always use txdmv.gov and print a temp permit it costs $10, works with just about any vin even dirt bikes.
 

dudeman2009

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Dapepper is right, swap the injectors, I forget that the only real test is ohm checking them. Unlike diesel injectors which you spray test.
Another thing to possibly check is the down pipe flange where it bolts to the rest of the exhaust. It's a slim chance but I've seen it on small 4 bangers where that coupling is leaking and under certain conditions a slight vacuum is created in the manifold that sucks fresh air in and tricks the O2 sensor. I don't know if that situation is even possible in a v10, but it's common in the Early 90s Volvos, even the Turbo versions, though the leak usually occurs right between the head and manifold on those.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
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farmbroker1

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1996 Dodge Ram 3500
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8.0l v10
Thanks guys for the suggestions.

I will swap the injectors when I get the opportunity.

Dudeman2009 asked for the reading for Bank 2 Sensor 1: it flipped back and forth from .000 to .020 V.

farmbroker1
 

dudeman2009

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Thanks guys for the suggestions.

I will swap the injectors when I get the opportunity.

Dudeman2009 asked for the reading for Bank 2 Sensor 1: it flipped back and forth from .000 to .020 V.

farmbroker1

That sensor should be flipping between about 0 to .8-.9 volts. 0.00-0.02 or even 0.00-0.20 is running way lean. Thats why its dumping fuel in there, swapping injectors is the first thing i'd do. If that doesn't fix it, swap that O2 sensor out with another, its possible its bad. Otherwise, you're getting a ton of oxygen compared to fuel in there. Its unlikely, but possible, check the downpipe flange on the exhaust right off the manifold to see if its loose or leaking.
 
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farmbroker1

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I plan of swapping the injectors this weekend and have seen reference to a DIY guide to replacing injectors on the v10 magnum but can't seem to locate it on this forum. Can someone direct me to the link?
Farmbroker
 
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farmbroker1

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Gentlemen,
I elected to replace the injectors rather than swap them side to side. The job on the Magnum v10 is more entailed so I just replaced them with new injectors across the board. I must thank Dudeman2009, it was his call on the Bank 2, Sensor 1 reading that narrowed it to the injectors on Bank 2. I can't say the truck runs like a stripped ape because the v10s are kind of doggy, but it runs very smooth and shifts properly now. Since everything else has been replaced I expect to get another 100k miles out of this baby.
Thank you all and thank you Dudeman2009 your expertise is invaluable to this forum. Keep up the great advise.
Farmbroker1
 

E4ODnut

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1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4
Engine
8L V10
The fuel trims indicate to me that the computer is intentionally adding fuel to the passenger side of the engine, the question is why. What is the O2 sensor reading from bank 2, I only care about sensor 1.

Are you sure about that?

The V10 cylinders are numbered with the odd numbers on the left bank and even numbers on the right bank. Injectors are wired in pairs, 5&8, 1&10, 3&6, 7&2, 9&4. Each pair is injected once per 720 degree engine cycle. How can the computer change fueling on the individual banks with the injectors connected in this way?
 

dudeman2009

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Are you sure about that?

The V10 cylinders are numbered with the odd numbers on the left bank and even numbers on the right bank. Injectors are wired in pairs, 5&8, 1&10, 3&6, 7&2, 9&4. Each pair is injected once per 720 degree engine cycle. How can the computer change fueling on the individual banks with the injectors connected in this way?

This is pulled straight from the 96 service manual. I also looked up the wiring diagrams, and each injector is individually connected to the PCM. I'm not sure what V10 pairs its injectors like that, but they'd have to fire those cylinders together. It wouldn't be practical given the ignition coil arrangement on the Magnum V10. If they paired their injectors together like that, they'd also pair their coils together like that.

Coil firing is paired together on cylinders: • Number 5 and 10 • Number 9 and 8 • Number 1 and 6 • Number 7 and 4 • Number 3 and 2


The injectors are energized individually in a sequential order by the powertrain control module (PCM). The PCM will adjust injector pulse width by switching the ground path to each individual injector on and off. Injector pulse width is the period of time that the injector is energized. The PCM will adjust injector pulse width based on various inputs it receives.
 

E4ODnut

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1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4
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Dudeman,
You are too quick for me. I was thinking about my reply, assuming that the '96 and '95 PCMs were the same. I just did a bit of research and not so, it would appear. The '96 and up V10s do indeed have fully sequential injection, unlike the '92 to '95. So you are probably correct in saying that the PCM can correct fueling on a bank or possibly even per cylinder basis, unlike the '95 and older. I should have checked the wiring for the '96 before I spoke.
 

dudeman2009

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Dudeman,
You are too quick for me. I was thinking about my reply, assuming that the '96 and '95 PCMs were the same. I just did a bit of research and not so, it would appear. The '96 and up V10s do indeed have fully sequential injection, unlike the '92 to '95. So you are probably correct in saying that the PCM can correct fueling on a bank or possibly even per cylinder basis, unlike the '95 and older. I should have checked the wiring for the '96 before I spoke.

No harm done. I'm kind of surprised the 95s ran their injectors that way. I know enough to be dangerous with the 95s, but am in no means an expert. 96-01 is my interest for Dodge trucks, and my 01 is my baby. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
 

E4ODnut

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Please check out the wiring diagrams for the '95, just as a sanity check for me. I try real hard, but I'm only human and I do make mistakes.

We may have some things in common.

I've done some serious studying on the V10. It fascinates me. I bought my '95 for the drive train, body and frame are too rusty to repair. I'm not a great fan of automatic transmissions. The plan is to put the engine, NV4500 5 speed manual transmission and Dana 80 rear axle in the '01. But it gets crazier.

I have some previous experience with Megasquirt and I have the V10 running quite well on it now. Unfortunately it burns oil, so I'll have to freshen it up before I do the swap.

I bought the '01 for the body and frame, and it is real nice. The automatic transmission is good, but it is of no use to me. The engine is tired, and the rear axle needs an overhaul, so it should be a marriage built in heaven.
 

dudeman2009

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Please check out the wiring diagrams for the '95, just as a sanity check for me. I try real hard, but I'm only human and I do make mistakes.

We may have some things in common.

I've done some serious studying on the V10. It fascinates me. I bought my '95 for the drive train, body and frame are too rusty to repair. I'm not a great fan of automatic transmissions. The plan is to put the engine, NV4500 5 speed manual transmission and Dana 80 rear axle in the '01. But it gets crazier.

I have some previous experience with Megasquirt and I have the V10 running quite well on it now. Unfortunately it burns oil, so I'll have to freshen it up before I do the swap.

I bought the '01 for the body and frame, and it is real nice. The automatic transmission is good, but it is of no use to me. The engine is tired, and the rear axle needs an overhaul, so it should be a marriage built in heaven.

Yep, the 95 paired injectors like that. As for the NV4500, get ready to shell out the big bucks unless you can get a decent junkyard trans. Everyone who's selling one thinks they're sitting on a pile of gold. Whats really stupid is the NV3500s. In my area I can get a Chevy NV3500 for about $350, but put the word Dodge in front of it and everyone is asking $800+. The NV4500s are at least $1200 around me. I was going to put a manual in my truck until I saw what everyone thought they were worth. I wouldn't pay more than $300 for an NV3500 they just aren't worth any more.

What is your 01? 1500 or 2500? The 1500s had a C channel frame from about the fuel tank back, whereas the 2500s had square tube all the way back. It won't make a huge difference as the late 80s and mid 90s 2500s used C channel the whole length of the frame at the same thickness and about the same height as ours. But I've seen the frames on the 1500s start to twist a little under heavy loads, and bend slightly around the axle. Its an easy fix, just weld or bolt in an extra crossmember or two, or weld some flat steel to the C channel right around where the axle meets. Thats only really necessary if you plan on hauling a 5th wheel or something that'll put more than a couple thousand pounds on the bed.
 

E4ODnut

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8L V10
The factory information I have states that the injectors are fired semi-sequentially. Turns out "semi-sequential" means different things to different people. I had assumed that the injector pairs would be fired twice in each 720 degree cycle, once on a closed intake valve and once on an open intake valve. Not so, they are only fired once, and each pair is fired at a different point in the valve timing. 5&8 start the injection pulse width with the intake valves closed and about 50% through the closed cycle. 1&10 are closed at about 25%, 3&6 are open at about 75%. 7&2 are open at about 25%. 9&4 are closed at about 75%.

By pairing the injectors they can be run with only five drivers, somewhat similar to waste spark. I'm not sure why Dodge paired and timed the injectors this way, but they must have had good reason and it seems to work well.

As I mentioned, I bought the '95 for the drive train. Finding a 2500 4x4 with extended cab, long box, V10 and a 5 speed manual in any condition is almost impossible. There are lots of them around with the Cummins and 5 speeds, but not V10s. The transmissions are expensive, but the V10 flywheels and bell housings are extremely rare. I was fortunate to be able to find one at all. The V10 and Cummins 2500s both came with the Dana 80 rear axle, which is pretty much bullet proof. When I do the swap I'm going to put a limited slip carrier in it as well. The trucks are rated for 8800 lb GVW or a combined truck/trailer weight of 19,000 lbs.

The '01 is the same 2500 4x4 extended cab long box, but it has the 360, 46RE auto and a Dana 70 rear axle
 

dudeman2009

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The factory information I have states that the injectors are fired semi-sequentially. Turns out "semi-sequential" means different things to different people. I had assumed that the injector pairs would be fired twice in each 720 degree cycle, once on a closed intake valve and once on an open intake valve. Not so, they are only fired once, and each pair is fired at a different point in the valve timing. 5&8 start the injection pulse width with the intake valves closed and about 50% through the closed cycle. 1&10 are closed at about 25%, 3&6 are open at about 75%. 7&2 are open at about 25%. 9&4 are closed at about 75%.

By pairing the injectors they can be run with only five drivers, somewhat similar to waste spark. I'm not sure why Dodge paired and timed the injectors this way, but they must have had good reason and it seems to work well.

As I mentioned, I bought the '95 for the drive train. Finding a 2500 4x4 with extended cab, long box, V10 and a 5 speed manual in any condition is almost impossible. There are lots of them around with the Cummins and 5 speeds, but not V10s. The transmissions are expensive, but the V10 flywheels and bell housings are extremely rare. I was fortunate to be able to find one at all. The V10 and Cummins 2500s both came with the Dana 80 rear axle, which is pretty much bullet proof. When I do the swap I'm going to put a limited slip carrier in it as well. The trucks are rated for 8800 lb GVW or a combined truck/trailer weight of 19,000 lbs.

The '01 is the same 2500 4x4 extended cab long box, but it has the 360, 46RE auto and a Dana 70 rear axle

The V10 Bellhousing is the same as the Cummins. Good luck on the flywheel though.
 

E4ODnut

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t looks like I haven't made myself clear. I have all the parts I need, but is good to know that the bell housing is interchangeable with the Cummins,. I never would have guessed that.
 

dudeman2009

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t looks like I haven't made myself clear. I have all the parts I need, but is good to know that the bell housing is interchangeable with the Cummins,. I never would have guessed that.

Nope you were clear, I just happened to become dyslexic on the one sentence that you said you already picked them up :roflsquared:
 
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