Hemi395
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Well. That blows.
Anyone HAPPY with Borg Warner 44-44 / Auto 4WD
- Thread starter Murphy Slaw
- Start date
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Murphy Slaw
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I remembered to use the solenoid and kick in the 4 Auto yesterday.
Just seems like something you ought to do once a month or so.
I could be crazy....
Just seems like something you ought to do once a month or so.
I could be crazy....
Hemi395
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This is always a good idea. The older GM Autotrac tcases would bind up if they weren't used in 4wd here and there...
VA10
Senior Member
According to the comments this is not defective. This truck electronics kicking in for traction....with no real lsd.
"It's normal. It's called brake lock differential. Your truck has open differentials...if you get one tire stuck, the loaded tire will stop moving and all torque will be shifted to the opposite tire while it has less traction causing your tire to keep moving while the other does not. Enter brake lock differential...When the truck senses traction loss in a wheel, like the wheel moving too much and the other not moving, it will automatically brake the fast moving tire to shift torque to the tire that is stuck. It is normal, it is good, and it is definitely something you want in the sand."
- guy explains this in the comment section of the video....just pointing it out.
Last edited:
CostaRam
Senior Member
my extended experience driving in all kinds of Sand is that what you want is:
lockable rear and front differential
lockable central differential / TC
a sturdy transfer case and general a sturdy drive train
a TC what locks when you put it in 4x4 lock mode
Driving on soft sand put probably the strongest strain on the drive train and this can lead to broken stuff...
The TOD system (brake lock differential) system is used also on other cars and the first one where the last series Land Rover Defender.
It is true that this system works, but it's scary noisy and it put unneccessary strain on the drive train and brake system
TOD like systems is a cheap upgrade for the manufacturers as except the software al other necessary things (ABS and Brakes) are already installed
Chris
ColdCase
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Yeah, routine sand/mud use of BLT or BTC, or whatever your marketers want to call it, will wear out your brake pads pretty quick. YouTube used to be full of smoking Mercedes and Rover brakes on the SUVs stuck in the mud. BTC is very inefficient with power use, about 50% gets turned into heat. If you want all your available engine power getting to the ground (like to maintain momentum in sand) you want locking difs and transfer cases. Not saying that there are plenty of undemanding sand trails that you can use anything on. Clutch based transfer cases and limited slips can easily overheat in sand, unless locked up tight enough so there is no slip. That was the basic fix was to the many overheat complaints on early M3023 cases, change the software to reduce the amount of clutch slip.
Hemi395
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Yeah I know I was replying to a certain post that claimed the 44-44 locks perfectly and that all these trucks that weren't locking perfectly were "defective"
VA10
Senior Member
Ah ok no problem. Like I said just pointing it out.
I actually had a 2014 F150 4x4 with an automatic transfer case. I drove that truck for almost 3 years. That truck got me through every type of terrain/situation. Not once did I have an issue with the transfer case. I had it in deep snow that froze over (sheets of ice as a top layer). Soft sand for a week at time (beach driving) Rutted non maintained steep winding back roads / trails. A many times I spent days dragging trees and pulling stumps around a muddy and rocky property. I was not easy on the truck when I drove.
During the time of ownership I did not realize how an automatic transfer case worked. So I definitely beat the crap of out it accelerating very hard from a complete stop thinking the truck was acting like a part time case.......I do recall my Ford had the following on the 4x4 selector dial. Which now I appreciate haha as it does not imply it fully locks. Like my current Ram does. Also just for the sake of reporting. There have been occasions where I have had my 44-44 bind when making maneuvers.
- 2hi
- 4auto
- 4hi (not 4lock)
- 4lo
I will admit. One thing I do not miss about a part time transfer case is the time it can take for it to shift into 4x4. I had a 2015 Tundra that took FOREVER to do so! One time I got stuck on a boat ramp. I was unable to creep forward to help it lock. But holy crap that was frustrating because of the size of the ramp and incline the truck could not creep up it nor roll backwards because of the water level. The truck took almost 2 minutes to lock up. I was unable to lock up prior to trailering my boat because of the dry conditions and amount of maneuvering required to accurately place the trailer in the water. The 2015 Tundra has an "auto lsd" an electronic braking traction system that you can manually turn on. This mode does not cut engine power while traction control does its thing. It basically burns your brakes up faster....a real lsd probably would have gotten me up that boat ramp without shifting into 4x4.
Hemi395
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I will admit as well that I've had 0 issues with my 44-44. I've driven it through New England blizzards and through deep snow and so far it's been fine after almost 5 years. With that said this is a simple programming fix to keep the clutch locked while in 4lock. Not as good as a mechanical lock but better than releasing everytime the throttle is released. The Ford and GM trucks that have 4Auto don't seem to have this issue...
VA10
Senior Member
Yeah same here my 44-44 has been flawless so far. As for the Fords auto case - I cannot find nearly as much info on how they operate. So I have not been able to confirm how they work compared to the 44-44 case. Or if they use the same 44-44 or a variant of the 44-44 or something that works the same.
I wonder if the Rams with the 44-44 in it had 4hi and 4lo vs 4lock on the selector if this would have ever become a major topic on this forum.
I wonder if the Rams with the 44-44 in it had 4hi and 4lo vs 4lock on the selector if this would have ever become a major topic on this forum.
CostaRam
Senior Member
Correct, this would solve a lot of problems with this TC.
I have a 2002 Ford Explorer with a similar system and i never ever had any problem to dive in sand and mud or crossing rivers.
I am not 100% sure but with the Explorer in 4 High i never experienced this jerking movement when the tc clutch engages and disengages while driving on soft sand.
The extrem drag on soft sand will stop a car very fast while on snow the on/off clutch system will work probably better as there is usually no drag from snow.
Chris
muddy12
Senior Member
Would be nice if it was that simple, and programming could actually fix it.
The electromagnetic part of the 44-44 that could be affected by programming, is already fully and continuously engaged when 4lock is selected.
The slip come from the fact that the clutch pack is mechanically actuated by a ball-ramp that requires a difference in rotational speed between the front and rear driveshafts in order to engage the clutch pack.
The electromagnetic clutch only controls when torque is applied to the mechanical clutch pack. In other words, it controls when the mechanical clutch pack is allowed to function.
Example:
2wd- electromagnetic clutch disengaged, mechanical clutch pack receives no input torque.
4 auto- electromagnetic clutch controlled by the computer. Mechanical clutch pack is only allowed to function when rear wheel slip is detected.
4 lock and 4LO- electromagnetic clutch is fully engaged. Mechanical clutch pack is receiving input torque all the time, but requires a difference in output speeds(rear wheel slip) to actuate the ball-ramp and compress the clutch pack.
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ColdCase
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Are you sure there is a difference between 4Lock and 4Auto in the transfer case? In either position I think the Ball Ramp is allowed to squeeze the clutch when there is a difference between drive shaft speed, like wheel spin. But it been awhile since I've read that post. From the transfer case POV, there seems to be four modes, 1) neutral, 2) ball ramp is disabled, 3) ball ramp enabled without gear reduction, 4) ball ramp enabled with gear reduction. There is also that independently operated front axle lock.
There is no way to completely lock the transfer case clutch short of enough torque on the ball ramp from differences in drive shaft rotation... so these clutches can heat up during the traction transitions you can get in mud and sand.
And for those not following this for awhile, there was a gear outfit that came up with a way to convert the TC to a conventional one but they couldn't figure out a practical way to eliminate the error codes.
There is no way to completely lock the transfer case clutch short of enough torque on the ball ramp from differences in drive shaft rotation... so these clutches can heat up during the traction transitions you can get in mud and sand.
And for those not following this for awhile, there was a gear outfit that came up with a way to convert the TC to a conventional one but they couldn't figure out a practical way to eliminate the error codes.
muddy12
Senior Member
billyw
Senior Member
Though my '15 1500 Laramie is primarily a pavement princess, it is required to work pretty hard in 4 wheel drive once in a while. Besides routinely using 4 auto in the winter, I have to use 4 lo just to back my travel trailer into its storage location. The truck does this just as well as my previous F150, with little to no slipping on the wet grass. It's also been used for a little stump pulling and does that with amazing ease, with no apparent slipping either. I don't intend to take it up any stream beds, but am confident that it will easily handle any routine winter scenarios or moderate off-roading. This thread is full of WAY too much worry and drama. Don't misunderstand, I do like the technical stuff.
muddy12
Senior Member
Honestly, I think a lot of it has to do with manufacturing tolerances and, in my case, how it was used by the previous owner.
Just like clutch pack limited slip differentials, if the tolerances are on the tight side, you’ll notice little to no slip. But if the tolerances are on the loose side, or it’s been used hard, you’ll notice more slip.
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Just like clutch pack limited slip differentials, if the tolerances are on the tight side, you’ll notice little to no slip. But if the tolerances are on the loose side, or it’s been used hard, you’ll notice more slip.
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ColdCase
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I think what folks found in the other earlier threads is that the only thing that squeezes the clutch pack in the 44-44 is the ball ramp. The only thing that turns the ball ramp is a difference in drive shaft speed. There is no computer or traction control external to the TC, its all done internally and mechanically. There is a mode selector switch which probably one of the computers converts to the right kind of power to the TC shift motor and monitors its position for fault detection purposes.
There are other transfer cases, the M3023 for example, where the ball ramp is turned by an electric motor to provide variable slip, not turned by the difference in drive shaft speed as the 44-44. So yes providing AWD with actual lock has been done for years. It may not be as inexpensive to produce as the 44-44, however. The 44-44 is not a bad design, innovative. The 44-44 in fact is built stronger than the 44-45, which was the main reason some were looking at a conversion, I think.
WilliamS
Senior Member
I thought I saw it in this somewhere, is there a full diagram of our transfer case somewhere? Something still doesn't add up to me. If it were a ball ramp system as soon as the speed difference were matched power would no longer be provided unless there was a mechanical device holding it at lock no matter what setting. I know I can get power to the fronts without the rears spinning. If this is a true TOD borg warner transfer case then its an electromagnetic system that engages the clutches based on load requested. I know Im missing something in here.
In my attempts to test the system I can get wheel spin on wet asphalt before the front kick in if Im at low/mid throttle. Anything over 50% or so throttle I get 0 wheel spin and the truck just lunges. Lucky I have a huge lot that I work at that I can test the theory. Same on sand, If I tap or let the truck idle up slowly I get rear spin then the fronts will engage usually pretty fast. Same thing, if I jab her in the gut with more than 50% and again thats an estimate all 4 tires start to spin at the same time. This is all test with a gopro in 240fps for the sake of argument.
The Ford transfer case used in the 2011 and newer Lariat and above trims, as well the new body raptor all act the exact same way. I do not think they are the same transfer case, but they are a torque on demand system and when searching you can actually find part diagrams. It uses and electric clutch pack to determine need. In fact Ford has a nifty display option in the dash to show you where power is being applied. That system also confirms the operation, in 4-auto low throttle all power is sent to the rears as you get more aggressive it starts to transfer to the front till all 4 tires have equal power, or in sand once the rear lose traction, about 1 rotation till the system can send power up front.
Ive been in this thread a few times, now its time to see the guts of this pig.
In my attempts to test the system I can get wheel spin on wet asphalt before the front kick in if Im at low/mid throttle. Anything over 50% or so throttle I get 0 wheel spin and the truck just lunges. Lucky I have a huge lot that I work at that I can test the theory. Same on sand, If I tap or let the truck idle up slowly I get rear spin then the fronts will engage usually pretty fast. Same thing, if I jab her in the gut with more than 50% and again thats an estimate all 4 tires start to spin at the same time. This is all test with a gopro in 240fps for the sake of argument.
The Ford transfer case used in the 2011 and newer Lariat and above trims, as well the new body raptor all act the exact same way. I do not think they are the same transfer case, but they are a torque on demand system and when searching you can actually find part diagrams. It uses and electric clutch pack to determine need. In fact Ford has a nifty display option in the dash to show you where power is being applied. That system also confirms the operation, in 4-auto low throttle all power is sent to the rears as you get more aggressive it starts to transfer to the front till all 4 tires have equal power, or in sand once the rear lose traction, about 1 rotation till the system can send power up front.
Ive been in this thread a few times, now its time to see the guts of this pig.
cbsmith
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That is exactly the problem William. As soon as the speed difference between the axles is the same it disengages. Then when it slips a second later it re-engages. When it repeats over and over the clutches heat up.
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