Crank, no start.. Results of trouble shooting are not making sense

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James Wilfong

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2003
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I have a 2003 dodge ram 1500 5.9L. 190K. Was driving last week, stopped at a friends home, 30 minutes later left and got about a 100 yards and the truck stalled out. When it stalled, I was going 30mph on flat ground and maintaining speed, not accelerating or slowing down. It did not die out like it was running out of gas but was very sudden, all lights stayed on and was able to coast to a side street. There was no bangs, shudders, shaking, any other identifiable action, just realized the dash dimmed a bit and accelerator was no longer responding. Gas tank was half full with the same gas from the same station I have used for 4 years. When you turn the key over without cranking, you can hear the fuel pump engage, and checking the fuel rail there is enough pressure to push gas out a good distance. Used a tire pressure checker on the fuel rail, desperate times, desperate measures, and it showed 45 psi. My brother has a flat bed so he came and loaded me up and brought it to the drive way where it is sitting now. I have since completed the following troubleshooting.
  • No check engine light staying on but plugged in the code reader and no codes are listed. Check engine light does turn on when key is turned over and appearing to function correctly.
  • Checked spark at ignition, distributor, and a plug. Strong spark all the way around. We had a new cap and rotor and that has since been installed for the hell of it.
  • Checked that fuel pump is functioning, getting fuel to the fuel rails, great pressure.
  • Fuel Injectors are testing electrically as key is turned over, and when cranking. All injectors are electronically testing correctly. This is testing both the positive feed and ground feed, and pulse when cranking.
  • Pulled fuel rails off and confirmed they are spraying when cranking over.
  • Checked compression and maintaining 150 across the board.
  • Separated the exhaust above the catalytic convertor and confirmed air is pushing out strong.

Finally, added ether directly into throttle body and it will not fire up.

The VIN was confirmed at the dealer when I made spare keys a year ago that it does not have a security system stock or need a programmable key. No aftermarket security system in this vehicle.

In addition to these main steps, I have checked the fuses and relays. I have the battery on a charger and at each trouble shooting step have confirmed battery is fully charged. I have checked the main visible grounds, next to the battery and on passenger side of firewall, and they are not corroded and are connected. Checked the connections on the PCM and everything is plugged in tight at the 3 connectors. There is no knocking noise or abnormal noises when cranking over from the motor.

Based on all the troubleshooting I feel I have tested and ruled out the following: ASD relay, distributor, ignition coil, crank sensor since I am getting spark and movement in the tach when cranking, battery, PCM for spark since I am getting power from the ASD to the PCM to the coil wires to plugs, the valves since I am getting compression and it is holding the compression after it is built. Timing chain since crank/compression. The fuel pump based on prime and fuel line pressure. The fuel injectors since pulse, constant and ground and spraying when fuel rail is pulled and cranked.

I am at a loss and hoping someone has any suggestions on what more I can be testing. Thank you in advance and please know I will do my best to provided accurate and thorough answers if you ask in hopes it can get to a resolution.
 
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Justin_Hart

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If you dont fire on either and have spark. Timing has to be off is my guess.

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James Wilfong

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Thanks, Justin! I plan to pull out the timing light in the morning if the blizzard where I am out loosens up a bit. I appreciate your suggestion.
 

yoda

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It takes more kv from the ignition coil to fire the plugs under compression. I have had week coils that will jump the plug gap with the plug out, but car will not start.
The best way to check spark is with a spark tester, the ones you can adjust the gap, it should put out at least 10KV. or just try a new coil
 
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James Wilfong

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Thanks, Yoda! I really appreciate this. I agree that I have seen coils that put out spark but not enough to start the car. I will be looking at the coil tomorrow and will follow up with the results. Thanks!
 

bulrid8

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Could still be a bad crank or cam sensor.

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James Wilfong

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Hi Bulrida8, thanks for the thought.

I do not have any codes stored the CEL. I have not reset the codes since this all began, and have not allowed the battery to be disconnected fully or drained down. I would anticipate a corresponding check engine light.

In reviewing the wiring schematics and thoroughly researching the repair manuals I have available, the camshaft position sensor would result in no movement in the tech what so ever when cranking the motor, no signal to the PCM which would result in no signal to the distributor and coil which would means no spark at all. When cranking the motor, I have response in the tach, power between the PCM and the Crank Sensor, power going to the coil and distributor. This all leads me to feel the Crank sensor has been ruled out.

Do you have any additional information on the camshaft position sensor that would help determine that it could be faulty based on your thought?

Thanks!
 

17CrewCab1500

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Could still be a bad crank or cam sensor.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

That would be my next guess too, however, he is getting spark. If these are bad, it would prevent the engine from firing. When one of these go bad, it does not allow spark.

I can't think of it now, but there is a relay for autostop or something like that - that turns power off when turning the key off.. This could be bad.
 
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James Wilfong

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Hi 17CrewCab1500, thanks for following up.

Regarding the relay for autostop, Below is the diagram for the relays in the vehicle at the fuse box. The ASD relay, automatic shut down relay, controls the ignition coil, and fuel injectors among other things. Based on it controlling these 2 things and that control starting of the vehicle these are the primary roles I focused on when troubleshooting the ASD. I did swap the relay in early testing with a new relay and was able to confirm with a power tester that I am getting power to the ASD and to the PCM from the ASD. The amount of DC at the fuse block and PCM match what they should be.

Is there another relay you are referring to?

Thanks, Again!


upload_2018-2-25_9-12-2.png
 

bulrid8

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Hi Bulrida8, thanks for the thought.

I do not have any codes stored the CEL. I have not reset the codes since this all began, and have not allowed the battery to be disconnected fully or drained down. I would anticipate a corresponding check engine light.

In reviewing the wiring schematics and thoroughly researching the repair manuals I have available, the camshaft position sensor would result in no movement in the tech what so ever when cranking the motor, no signal to the PCM which would result in no signal to the distributor and coil which would means no spark at all. When cranking the motor, I have response in the tach, power between the PCM and the Crank Sensor, power going to the coil and distributor. This all leads me to feel the Crank sensor has been ruled out.

Do you have any additional information on the camshaft position sensor that would help determine that it could be faulty based on your thought?

Thanks!
I can tell you from years of experience that you will not always get a CEL when they are going bad. If they are working intermittent, they can still allow spark through, but cause a no start condition. You have done all the tests and as much as I hate to see people throw parts at a problem, you may be to the point of changing them just to rule them out. Crank and cam sensors can be a pain in the ass to find bad ones.

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James Wilfong

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UPDATE******* new ignition coil has resolved the issue...... I am very grateful for everyone who had posted suggestions. The original ignition coil had very consistent spark with an inline spark tester, but an inline spark tester does not show the quality of spark, only spark being present. Instead of testing with the inline tester, attempted to ground out a plug with less than promising results. Since the testing without the inline test was not a guarantee, I tested by plugging a plug in at the line where the plug wire meet the distributor and grounding it out, to see a weak spark.

I hope this information helps someone else.
 
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James Wilfong

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Thanks, Bulrid8! I appreciate your follow up and thoughts. I was fortunate that it was not the PCM. Thanks, again!
 
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James Wilfong

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UPDATE******* new ignition coil has resolved the issue...... I am very grateful for everyone who had posted suggestions. The original ignition coil had very consistent spark with an inline spark tester, but an inline spark tester does not show the quality of spark, only spark being present. Instead of testing with the inline tester, attempted to ground out a plug with less than promising results. Since the testing without the inline test was not a guarantee, I tested by plugging a plug in at the line where the plug wire meet the distributor and grounding it out, to see a weak spark.

I hope this information helps someone else.

Thanks Bulrid8 for following up. Thank you all who chose to respond.
 

17CrewCab1500

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Glad you found it! Nice work dude!!

Your trouble-shooting methods are second to none!
 

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