Synthetic Oil

Oh yeah forgot about PAG, if an oil put all of the things I said and had a PAG base, it would kick redline's ass. But nobody is doing it, they would rather use smoke and mirrors and marketing to convince you their stuff is better. In most cases it hardly matters, but in finicky engines we see oil choice may actually make a tangible difference.

group 3 versus 4

oil groups.

read this. POE = Polyol ester

So back to the Challenge, I would say balanced PAG base, high magnesium with decent calcium, 1200ppm zddp, 400ppm TN moly, no Vii's, a couple drops of unicorn tears (that is potent ****).

Burla said:

Oh yeah forgot about PAG, if an oil put all of the things I said and had a PAG base, it would kick redline's ass. But nobody is doing it, they would rather use smoke and mirrors and marketing to convince you their stuff is better. In most cases it hardly matters, but in finicky engines we see oil choice may actually make a tangible difference.

group 3 versus 4

oil groups.

read this. POE = Polyol ester

So back to the Challenge, I would say balanced PAG base, high magnesium with decent calcium, 1200ppm zddp, 400ppm TN moly, no Vii's, a couple drops of unicorn tears (that is potent ****).

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Okay, so what can you do to PAG to counteract its poor hydrolytic stability. {{I read that in one of your links.}} Also, does PAG {since said link didn't explicitly state it} exhibit all of the good things that POE's, Diesters, and PAO's do? Or would it need to be a hybrid base with 1, 2, or all 3 of those? Finally, what do you mean by a 'balanced' PAG base?

Pag base that wouldn't endanger seals, like Redline has done with their base. So yes, that may mean combining different base oils and having it time tested like a Redline type company. I posted some good stuff on PAG in the thread, dunno if I can find that.

Burla said:

Pag base that wouldn't endanger seals, like Redline has done with their base. So yes, that may mean combining different base oils and having it time tested like a Redline type company. I posted some good stuff on PAG in the thread, dunno if I can find that.

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POE's seems like a direct upgrade from Diesters, but otherwise the same... You still didn't technically answer my previous specific questions.

{{Still trying to figure out how to counteract the PAG's breakdown due to reacting with water, aka its Hydrolytic instability. And if PAG is a direct upgrade, but also with new features from POE, Diesters, and PAO. Would you HAVE to mix all of them, or would you be better of just mixing PAO and PAG since PAO seems to be more of an actual 'base' to work with, being the only problems I see as additive solubility and not suspending degrading ****. To which a sub base of whatever would help with that, in this case, PAG's...}}

I have talked about this before a couple years back..

It would be interesting to know the amount of flow of oil going UP to the lifters themselves.
As well as @ start up and @ hot idle. This is when it seems oil psi is at its lowest.

This is why I honestly believe in a thick coat of oil (Film Strength) as well as some type of perminate coating protecting these lifters [Moly] when oil psi or flow is low and not supplying them with a adequate amount of lubrication. If this is actually happening.

Also I was a true believer in never letting my 5.7L idle for more then 5 min... No matter what.

Add Antioxidants, Dispersants, Foam Inhibitors, Rust & Corrosion inhibitors, and use the best fuel possible. All base oils are incompatible with water, there is an old saying water and oil don't mix. Work harder at keeping the water out in the first place, us 100% gas. I have seen more uoa's then I can count with redline, haven't seen any water problems except one guy who had his coolant mixed in. It is a non issue, just like the "seal" compatible. This stuff has long been settled.

Make sure the car is operating at 213F, as well. Burn off any water vap.

Burla said:

Make sure the car is operating at 213F, as well. Burn off any water vap.

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You mean the oil, right? Because I plan on running a cooler stat soon.

Also, why those specific numbers of ZDDP and TN Moly?

Yes oil temp, IDC about coolant temp. Too much of either moly or zinc is bad, I feel the regular amount of tri nuclear moly has proven itself to not be enough as far as hemi tick goes, and 1200 ppm zinc was the standard for many decades w/o widespread CAT damage, so I think that is the good balance. I had posted the benefit of moly concentrations, 200ppm moly does have benefit over 70ppm, but 70ppm is also very effective. I say 400ppm, because we hemi owners are dealing with something they don't have in the tests. So go sell your house and mobilize your assets and go mix us up some of that oil, I will buy some.

Reasons to not have a extended OCI, fun thread. My favorite, nothing better else to do

Burla said:

Yes oil temp, IDC about coolant temp. Too much of either moly or zinc is bad, I feel the regular amount of tri nuclear moly has proven itself to not be enough as far as hemi tick goes, and 1200 ppm zinc was the standard for many decades w/o widespread CAT damage, so I think that is the good balance. I had posted the benefit of moly concentrations, 200ppm moly does have benefit over 70ppm, but 70ppm is also very effective. I say 400ppm, because we hemi owners are dealing with something they don't have in the tests. So go sell your house and mobilize your assets and go mix us up some of that oil, I will buy some.

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I rent my studio apartment and have a net worth of maybe $10,000 USD if I'm lucky. But, hey, if you pay for chemical engineering school, I'll make it and send ya freebies for life.

Is there any top limit to the moly amount before it would start CAUSING problems in any engine?

There is for sure, but I don't know it. Moly does mess with acidity and some other additives. Again, if you look at time tested stuff the number would have to be over 1,000ppm, maybe a lot over that, I dunno.

Back to zinc, I posted this while back. Also explains why zinc may not be the answer for out of tolerance metals.

SyN said:

I have talked about this before a couple years back..

It would be interesting to know the amount of flow of oil going UP to the lifters themselves.
As well as @ start up and @ hot idle. This is when it seems oil psi is at its lowest.

This is why I honestly believe in a thick coat of oil (Film Strength) as well as some type of perminate coating protecting these lifters [Moly] when oil psi or flow is low and not supplying them with a adequate amount of lubrication. If this is actually happening.

Also I was a true believer in never letting my 5.7L idle for more then 5 min... No matter what.

Click to expand...

Good stuff. Here are a few more things to consider. The oil pumps are fixed-displacement. Pressure is defined as resistance to flow. Is higher pressure what you really want? Not exactly. More flow=more oil actually passing a given point at a given time. More resistance to that same flow creates heat and is not necessarily a good thing.

Remember, old school oil pumps were cam/distributor driven and the pumps themselves were partially submerged in oil because they were located in the oil pan, with very short pickup tubes; all parts submerged, at least partially. When you hit the key, the pump was already primed, so flow is immediate.

Since switching to distributor-less ignitions, they had to reconfigure oils pumps. Now, oil pumps are front mounted, high and dry, and are crank driven. Their pickup tubes are ridiculously long, at around ~2 feet. When the engine sits, the oil tends to drain out of the oil pump and pickup tube, back into the pan through gravity.

When you start the engine after this, it has a very long, large diameter pickup tube to travel (displace) just to prime the pump. During that time, there is actually a vacuum/negative pressure. In part, this is why less viscosity is good in this type of oiling system. Dry starts are unavoidable. This is also why many high performance engine builders opt to use dry sump lube systems. Immediate lubrication. Pump stays primed.

Another thing that has been happening, engine oils are upping their moly, Toyota 800ppm, Amsoil 250ppm, PUP 0w40 250ppm, two other went to 180ppm posted the other day. These are just manu's that are increasing moly numbers, not to mention where the field is currently. high moly and zinc good for the DI Turbo situation.

Film strength is more important now than ever .

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Corey, have you ever had slow cold cranks with that heavy weight you had 6 qrts 0w40 PUP? Just had me a slow crank, never happened before, and the only thing that changed was the 10w30. Started more then a few times since the change no issue, we will see. Stock battery is 7 years old, maybe she is going.

Battery ?



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I know, but it is always weird when something happens when you just have done something, you know?

Is there any battery life in this evic? That would be real useful, so probably not, ha

Burla said:

Another thing that has been happening, engine oils are upping their moly, Toyota 800ppm, Amsoil 250ppm, PUP 0w40 250ppm, two other went to 180ppm posted the other day. These are just manu's that are increasing moly numbers, not to mention where the field is currently. high moly and zinc good for the DI Turbo situation.

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That's a lot of moly. Hmm. So, since RLK said film strength is important, also, what contributes to that? Or is that determined by base oil and weight?

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