1500's are really this useless? - Hit the CAT scale today - Disgusted

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River19

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While I agree with many of the points here, I don't see the 1/2 tons as "useless people haulers". I agree that people need to be more diligent about getting the facts and not the marketing hype. I bought a 1500 for a couple for reasons, ride quality being one. Yes a 2500 rides nice, but in the end its not as smooth as the 1500, and I didn't need that capacity. When it comes time to haul, I know what the limits are and I work with them in my chosen vehicle. Blaming the truck for not having the capacity you need/want is like blaming the hammer for hitting your thumb.

I'm looking at TTs now, and I'm looking to stay at or below 4500lbs dry, preferably less. According to the various charts, my 5.7/5sp/3.55/20" is good for around 6600lbs towing. Most of the TTs I've looked at are around 5200 loaded, so with me, SWAMBO, the mutt and enough stuff, I figure we still have room to spare. as a bonus, the weight limit keeps me from looking at TTs that are more than I need, and also more expensive.


You my friend seem to be going about things in a logical way........

I actually really feel bad for folks who do get overwhelmed with marketing hype and buy a sweet ass 1500/150 etc. and then realize they can't get the trailer of their dreams etc.

We just bought our TT a few months back and we bought it based on towing it with our lighter GX since it will sometimes be a second trailer to the horse trailer on our 2500, so......I was dealing with even less capacity than you are.
 

14RAM4X4

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1500 vs 2500 debate is a tough one. I started off with a 1500 not even thinking about a travel trailer. When I did, I went with a lightweight Crossroads Z-1 18ss. It's about 3500 #s empty and gvwr of about 4500#. Estimated tongue weight is about 500#.

The 1500 4x4 pulled it and stopped it just fine. As a matter of fact, on flat runs I had to remember to slow down and not do the 80 mph speed limit. I didn't like the squat I got with the family (me, wife, 2 small boys) and a 3500W generator, 2 ice chests, and extra fuel cans in the bed while towing my "light" TT.

Getting into the Texas hill country with those winding curves and hops was a white knuckle experience for me. The ass end was all over the place. Going 40 mph on a 50-60 mph roads didn't make the people behind me happy either. But hey, slow and safe vs rolled over and road shut down... I was doing them a favor. That had me looking at WDH, bags or Tuff Truck springs.

Going to a 3/4 ton was a tough pill to swallow. The ride difference didn't make it any easier. But, now I'm used to the ride and it isn't as bad as I initially felt it was when I made the switch. The ride is pretty decent for a 3/4 ton. Towing the TT in the hill country is much smoother.

Things I do miss about the 1500: exhaust note of the stock dual exhaust, the acceleration of the 5.7 with the 8 spd, the plus ride, and gas mileage. All that aside, I'm glad I moved up to the 2500 4x4. I've definitely needed that crazy payload capacity a few times, towing is all around easier, and I've pulled out a few stuck trucks and even a tractor on my uncle ranch (he has an f150 4x4 and a 1500 ram 2wd). Love this truck, even with it's faults.
 

RoadRamblerNJ

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Nothing says ya can't own two 2500's. :)
You my friend seem to be going about things in a logical way........

I actually really feel bad for folks who do get overwhelmed with marketing hype and buy a sweet ass 1500/150 etc. and then realize they can't get the trailer of their dreams etc.

We just bought our TT a few months back and we bought it based on towing it with our lighter GX since it will sometimes be a second trailer to the horse trailer on our 2500, so......I was dealing with even less capacity than you are.
 

VernDiesel

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You had to watch it so that you didn't tow at 80 mph with your 1500 & TT?..

You got (major?) squat from 500 pounds TW generator two coolers and fuel cans in the bed.

When the road got hilly & curvy it turned into a white knuckle experience. Your ass end was all over the place. (but you would have done the Duke boys proud?)

You only went 40 mph on 50-60 mph roads to the cha-grin of the people behind you because you was worried about rolling over and shutting the road down.. Kids and wife will be fine but damn don't shut the road down! Was one of your trailer tires flat? How big was your wife? Due tell the rest of the story did you guys goes fishing?

Ok we have all embellished a story for whatever reason.

In America you don't have to take a pill to buy a new truck. You can just buy one because you want one. Assuming you can and are willing to pay for it. No justification required.

If paying for it is hard with two little boys to feed. (they eat more as they get bigger) an easier pill to swallow so to speak might have been to take that load no matter how small and silly it may have looked down to the Cat scale. Hooked up even that cheaper than a truck payment Harbor Freight WDH and adjusted it and your load so that your unloaded steer weight was replaced and until your TW tongue weight was between 10 and 15 percent of your trailers weight. After which their would be no more white knuckle experiences no **** all over the road just stability and safety for your wife and boys. And lots more money left for feeding and taking the boys camping. I take **** swinging is from trailer sway which is generally not enough tongue weight. Easily fixed with proper hitch setup and weight.

I notice per your signature now 6.4 Hemi 3" lift 37.5" tires. "Stopping at every gas station I see." Might there have been some other motivation for this truck change than said white knuckle experience?

Just in the vein of striking a balance. Its not hard to acquire a WDH and have someone experienced show you how to adjust it and set up the load per scale results. This requires a couple hundred for a new WDH & say $12 & $2 per additional weigh ish. Three scales measuring steer drive and TT axles separately but at one time. Also seen guys with 35s 3.92s and Ecodiesel still get well into the 20s hwy with good drive-ability and in town mileage. The 8 speed and low rpm diesel torque is nice. Naturally you may need or just want the existing truck and be happily willing to pay for the fuel. Best

One more thing. I apologize if this came off condescending its really only meant to be humorous and educational. I and my friends laugh at myself regularly. Often while in the garage working on trucks.
 
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MasonD21

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I can't even count how many times we have all said, that REALISTICALLY, a HALF-TON truck is really only good for 5,000lbs in the real world, legally. The "weight police" lol.

I only know a few people out there that actually can legally tow their max trailer weight. These folks usually have no passengers, no additional gear, etc.

If you want to max tow (10,000lbs or anywhere near there) AND carry your family... then you need a heavy duty truck!
 

14RAM4X4

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@VernDiesel , No worries, my friends and I like to be smart asses and give each other a little crap all the time...

You're right.... a few things to clear up

Yes, my 1500 would sometimes hit 80 mph during the 2.5 hours trip from San Antonio to Corpus. I call it flat, but it's going from the edge of the hill country to the coast, so truly, it's slightly downhill. The speed limit is 75.

Lol, I won't let the wife see this post. She's already self conscious enough about being 122-ish #s. Major squat... yes and no. My 1500 did have a 4" Superlift lift on it with bilsteins set at 1.4" and 3" rear springs. So I suspect a large part of it was that the springs were softer than stock coupled with the fact that I only had about 1/2" of rake. So loaded up as stated above and attached to the trailer, the rear sage was very pronounced. I suspect that also had a lot to do with the ass end hopping around when the trailer bounced around in the hill country.

I tried to go fishing at the coast... but with a 6 & 8 year old, I got next to NO fishing done. They wanted me to take them out far enough out to enjoy their boogie board. With just me, I had to take them out one at a time... so every time I brought one in, the other was ready to go back out. I try to get them interested in fishing, but after 20 min, they loose interest. I'll try again this summer to get them into fishing.

Like I said, I was looking at WDH and air bags or springs. But I moved to the 2500 for a few reasons... Possibly moving to a bigger TT in the future, yup able to fit bigger tires with little modification (I had 295/60r20s on my 1500), for me, the piece of mind of a solid front axle, I sure I'm missing a few other reasons. But, the only hard part about moving up to the 2500, was the down payment and restarting payments. But, the biggest reason is because I moved up to the 2500 because of WANT more than NEED.


Yeah, those 2 boys already eat my wallet empty and they are still young, lol.
 

yillbs

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It's important to note that going over the manufacturers weight limitations does nothing more than void your warranty, and only then if you break something. The law only says you can't exceed your tire weight rating ( get some load E tires and you'll be good for 10k ).

That said, when it comes to payload, I'd just try to stay within your axle limitations, and your GVCWR ( Trailer and truck combined ), it's nearly impossible to stay within the payload of the truck, but again, that's not breaking the law, that's voiding your warranty.

My truck with one person in it ( me) weighs 6530 pounds gross. I tow a 7600 pound ( give or take 100 pounds ) wet TT. I have an Eq hitch, and max out my steer and rear axles. I've been driving it this way for about a year. My truck weighs as much as a 2500, the only difference between the two is really the springs, tires, and rear axle is rated for more. I fixed the tires, and the springs, and still stay within the axle limitations of the truck. That argument is ignorant, and based on poor math.
 

htwo

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This has always been my argument, although looking back a few decades when the average half ton had less payload and towing than they do now, and people drove overweight regularly as it wasn't often enforced. Just a few years ago I saw an Intrepid R/T towing a well over 25' long Airstream trailer that I know has close to 900lb tongue weight. A WD hitch was used but no...just no.

My 2011 SXT QC 4x4 5.7 is rated at 1425lb payload and it is a relatively bare bones truck, not many options at all over a base ST. I use my truck primarily for property maintenance and odd jobs mostly all in town so it's relatively low mileage. I do tow various trailers on occasion. I took my dads motorcycle to London (3hr round trip) as it needed new tires badly and I refused to let him ride it with cracked tires. I tossed it in a two place 5x10 purpose built motorcycle trailer with rear ramp and a side door (V nose) and it towed great, didn't really dent the highway mpg I usually get when empty despite me using tow haul (no MDS) and staying down one overdrive on the highway. It added about 350lb tongue weight and the trailer with the bike is roughly 3000lbs.

If I towed more than three tons on a regular basis I would definitely opt for a 2500.

Looking at a loaded Ecodiesel crew cab 1500 the payload is as low as 880lbs. This is where Ford shines, as you add heavier options they up the suspension ratings on their F150 so as to have a reasonable payload capacity so you can use it as a truck. They also offer payload packages on select half ton models now as well as a slide in camper package which I think is a bit of a stretch.

Even my Ram at 1425lb payload, minus my weight and tools in the back I'm limited to about 1100lbs which is adequate in most cases. A few times I have gone overweight substantially (2000lbs of soil to the dump as an example which is nearly 900lbs overweight), and it drove just as it would as if I had 500lbs in the bed. It's deceiving at how well engineered modern trucks are to have them drive and handle so effectively regardless of the payload amount. It's easy to tow/haul an overweight load without really knowing it.

From a liability perspective it's best to stay within GVWR, GAWR, GCWR, as if you are involved in a collision regardless how minor it is, you can be held liable if it's found you were operating an overweight vehicle. A lot of DOT vehicles carry portable scales making side of the road checks possible and can hurt you on a trip. The truck might feel as if it can pull a certain load fine, but braking is a whole different game.
 

a12rag

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Well, I can speak from experience . . . my first truck (still have it) is a 2002 Ram 2500 Cummins quad cab HO with 6spd manual, 2wheel drive. My travel trailer is 26' with 700lb tongue weight and approximately 7,000lb (propane tanks, dual batteries). Towing with the cummins has never been a problem, even gets decent fuel economy (15.8mpg all day long) . . . then I started thinking, if I replaced the 2500 with a 1500 4x4, I could also get rid of my 06 Magnum RT AWD - take two vehicles into one.

I finally found a 2013 1500 crew cab longhorn . . . wow, really nice truck - quietest vehicle I have ! So, I finally get chance earlier in May to tow the travel trailer with the 1500 . . . hmmmmm, now I am thinking I might sell the 1500, and keep both my 3/4 ton Cummins and Magnum. It wasn't so much that the 1500 could not tow the trailer, it was fine doing that . . . just that it did not "feel" as sure as the Cummins did ... and I really don't want to start throwing money onto the 1500 for better springs, or air bags, etc . . . and when I do the numbers on the 1500, I really end up with approximatley 90-100lb of cargo in the box ! I probably have more weight in the firewood than that ! Let alone a generator, etc . . . .

While I know the 1500 will tow, I just feel more comfy behind the wheel of the Cummins - and added benefit of great fuel economy !!

Just my two cents from real world experience . . .

Cheers
 

bigkyle72

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Well after buying a brand new Ram 1500 fully setup for towing and planning to upgrade to a larger travel trailer I finally had reality set in (well "legal" reality).

I had been reading threads all over the Interwebs and listened to debates from the "Weight Police" as others call them but still felt fairly comfortable after spreadsheeting my new truck with expected cargo and hitch weights.

Still something was bugging me and everyone said just go get the truck weighed then you know for sure. We only have a few CAT scales here in Southern Ontario but I found one not too far away and went and weighed the new truck this morning.

See the CAT ticket below, this is with a 100% full tank of gas (regular tank, not the extended) and zero cargo and passengers, just the truck which is a:

2017 Ram 1500 Big Horn Crewcab 6' 4" box
Hemi with 8 speed 3.92 Axle
Rambox
Bedliner (linex)
Bakflip G2 tonneau cover
No cargo at all, no driver, not even a "jacket" left in the truck when weighed. Full load of fuel.

38017130642_613b4a4589_c.jpg

So as you can see its:

Gross weight: 5880 lbs
Front axle: 3300 lbs
Rear axle: 2580

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Now is where things get interesting...

FCA (RAM) indicates my truck should be capable of the following (based upon features):

Crew Cab - 6' 4" box 4x4
GVWR: 6900
Payload: 1450
Base Weight: 5451.56
Front: 3223.72
Rear: 2227.84
GAWR: 3900 and 3900
Max Trailer Weight (SAE J2807): 9830

Payload is abysmal but I can work with 1450... I thought!

Data taken from Ram Towing Chart, 2017 for my config of truck:

https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ramtrucks.com%2Fassets%2Ftowing_guide%2Fpdf%2F2017_ram_1500_towing_charts.pdf
---

Now take the stickers on my truck, first the door jamb. Same basic numbers as above.

24195828648_230a557323_c.jpg

The the nasty tire sticker (because FCA put Passenger tires on a Truck):

38017131492_d3d0dbfcd7_c.jpg

Max load: 1116 lbs ... no where near the 1450 they claimed. No big deal, can upgrade tires... but can you get a new sticker for the new tires? Hmmm...

---

So all that being said now comes the worst part, the TRUE math, no marketing crap or lying dealers/FCA:

GVWR: 6900 lbs
Weight of truck empty but with full fuel: 5880 lbs
6900 - 5880 = 1020 lbs

This leaves us with 1020 lbs of "legal" payload. My god my Jeep Rubicon Unlimited has more payload than this (but sure as hell isn't listed as being cable to tow 9000+ pounds, it's rated for 3500).

So with 1020 lbs lets add driver and family:

Driver: 150 lbs (Yes I'm Mr. Joe Average as per SAE J2807)
Wife: 130 lbs (approximation, I'm not dumb enough to post a real womens weight on the net! lol).
Child 1: 120 lbs
Child 2: 70 lbs
Kids Friend: 70 lbs (they always bring one camping)
---
Total Passengers: 550 lbs

Remaining weight for anything else INCLUDING tongue weight:

1020 lbs - 550 lbs = 470 lbs!!!!!!
:hmm:


---

You gotta be kidding me... if I weighted as much as most normal North Americans (see what I did there... lol), our available payload would be more like 300 lbs! My Motorcycle can legally carry more than that with a passenger!!!

---

I can't believe FCA thinks the Ram can tow 9830 lbs, that would be a tongue weight of 983 lbs.

1020 - 983 lbs = 37 lbs of cargo before even the driver is added!


---

Ok lets go by what they said was my original base (before Rambox, tonneau, Linex), they indicated it was 5451.56 lbs.

(as per "2017 RAM 1500 Trailer Towing Chart - SAE J2807 Compliant")

6900 GVWR - 5451.56 base = 1448.44 lbs of cargo

9830 Max Trailer with 10% tongue weight = 983 lbs

1448.44 - 983 = 465.44 lbs

Passenger Weight 300 lbs (SAE J2807)

465.44 - 300 = 165.44 lbs remaining Payload

Hitch 65 lbs (SAE J2807)

165.44 - 65 = 100.44 lbs remaining Payload

Good lord, yes they didn't lie, their chart is accurate but your truck is maxed and cannot have ANY other options and only 100 lbs of cargo... Disgusting.

---

So as you can see, putting a family in a 1500 and expecting to "legally" tow a Travel Trailer is basically impossible. Don't forget this is with NO cargo in the front passthrough storage of the trailer such as oh I don't know, lawn chairs lol. Very disgusted by all this and I hope this thread helps anyone in the future even considering a 1500 for towing... forget it. Get a 2500 or bigger.


My existing travel trailer, a tiny little Jayco 17z hybrid (3500 max GVWR) has a dry (read: WAY underrated in the brochure) weight of 340 lbs. Add battery and two propane tanks:

340 + 50lbs Battery + 37 lbs LP + 37lbs LP = 464 lbs calculated and that is with weight in the front storage.

So my truck with family in it (and no jackets, food, video games, iPhones lol) has just 470 lbs of payload left.

470 - 464 lbs = 6 lbs of Cargo left!!!! :crazy:

So my brand new killer pickup CANNOT legally tow my little tiny 17z trailer that my Jeep unlimited could (legally). And this is without a real hitch weight... I have a sherline scale so I'm going to go out and weight the 17z in a few minutes just to see what the REAL tongue weight is.

EDIT: Just weighed the Jayco 17z with unknown qty of propane but most other junk in trailer.... 550 lbs on Sherline scale. I can't legall toy this tiny trailer lol!

Insanity.

---

Now yes, I see Ram Hemi's every day (Laramies with full air suspension) pulling 37 foot Starcraft monsters loaded to the gills... The truck "can" do it, just not legally. Going to open a beer tonight and throw darts at random objects lol...

---

Please someone tell me where my math went wrong lol!

Cheers
Tim


The wrangler has more payload then the 1500?
 

Firebird

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I'm of the thought that you should always have more truck than you think you need. I can't stand towing maxed out on weight in too little truck, when your load manhandles your rig, it's time to move up in truck or down in trailer.
 

Wahrsuul

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Technically, I already have more truck than I need. For what I've used my truck for so far, I could have gone with a Honda Ridgeline.

But, I do love looking at and driving my big yellow truck. Maybe someday we'll get a TT, after I sell the bike.
 

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