Ecodiesel

[Deki]

Anyone who says that a Hemi is within 2 miles of a ED is ******* high.

Anyone who says that the Pentastar is good for gas mileage is equally high.

We have the 3.6 in our jeep GC Trailhawk and it doesnt crack 23 on the highway. In our 2014 GC with the ED did 32 to 34 highway and 22 to 24 around town.

My 6.4 2500 does about 15 highway and 12 city with about 8 towing an 8,000 pound trailer.

 

[Machria]

Um, I heavily disagree. Gas motors don’t have a highly technical, on board gas fired oven commonly known as a particulate filter/burner on the exhaust like diesels do. Nor do they have a DEF tank/ejector. High pressure injector pumps. Extra filters.

Gas motors have always been a clean burning engine for many many years. Diesel engines, for only about the last 11.

Ever since about 2007, diesel motors have become far more complicated and have a lot more going on.


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Problem is, your focusing on one item, emissions. Gas EFI motors don't have high pressure fuel pumps or "high tech" atomizing ejectors? Really? Better go open the hood of your gasser and have a look for yourself. There is a hell of a lot more "stuff" under the hood of the gasser than there is on the diesel. Ignition electronics anyone? Coils? Plugs? Fuel vacum returns? Fuel, oxy and fuel temp sensors anyone? Lets not just focus on emissions, lets look at ALL of the other stuff gassers have that diesels don't.

 

[Machria]

i think you have it backwards, gas motors only share 2 of the 4 smog equipment stuff that diesels are forced to run right now

EGR and Catalytic Converter

Diesels have

EGR
Catalytic Converter
SCR - DEF
DPF

The new cars dont have any newer or more smog equipment, instead they are just shutting cylinders off and eliminating idling by having a start/stop function when you are idling.

Yea, that stuff ^^^^^ isn't complicated!! LOL!

 

[corneileous]

Problem is, your focusing on one item, emissions. Gas EFI motors don't have high pressure fuel pumps or "high tech" atomizing ejectors? Really? Better go open the hood of your gasser and have a look for yourself. There is a hell of a lot more "stuff" under the hood of the gasser than there is on the diesel. Ignition electronics anyone? Coils? Plugs? Fuel vacum returns? Fuel, oxy and fuel temp sensors anyone? Lets not just focus on emissions, lets look at ALL of the other stuff gassers have that diesels don't.

No, the problem is you’re focusing on everything... I’m just focusing on the emissions..... stuff.

But you know, you’re just gonna continue to argue with us on it so we’ll just leave it at that....[emoji6]


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[huntergreen]

Problem is, your focusing on one item, emissions. Gas EFI motors don't have high pressure fuel pumps or "high tech" atomizing ejectors? Really? Better go open the hood of your gasser and have a look for yourself. There is a hell of a lot more "stuff" under the hood of the gasser than there is on the diesel. Ignition electronics anyone? Coils? Plugs? Fuel vacum returns? Fuel, oxy and fuel temp sensors anyone? Lets not just focus on emissions, lets look at ALL of the other stuff gassers have that diesels don't.

.


Everything in your post is correct, but you leave out a few details. The polution **** on gassers has been around for a numbers of years and for the most part have gone through the growing pains. Clean diesels are relatively new. Far more complicated than, for example a 2004 5.9 Cummins.

 

[Machria]

.

Everything in your post is correct, but you leave out a few details. The polution **** on gassers has been around for a numbers of years and for the most part have gone through the growing pains. Clean diesels are relatively new. Far more complicated than, for example a 2004 5.9 Cummins.

Your correct, the clean diesels today are more complicated than the older models, like the 2004 Cummings, or the 2 Yanmar's in my current boat. In addition, what people forget is, the Hemi gas motor in todays trucks, is WAAAAAAAAAAAY more complicated than the Hemi in a 2004 truck as well. And the gasser motor has become MUCH more complicated compared to the few things added on the diesels.

Do yourselves a favor, go down to the dealership and open the hood on a brand new Hemi and look around. See how many parts you can actually identify. You will be surprised to find there is a BUNCH of stuff stuffed in t here, that you will not have a name for, with wires, hoses, and hard connections to it.

No, the problem is you’re focusing on everything... I’m just focusing on the emissions..... stuff.

But you know, you’re just gonna continue to argue with us on it so we’ll just leave it at that....[emoji6][/i]

YOUR statement paraphrased is and was, "Eco Diesels are much more complicated than the gas motors". Nowhere did you state "the EMMISIONS part of diesel motors.....is more complicated...". And yes, I will argue the point until it is corrected. Simply stating the ED's are more complicated, is not anywhere remotely true and is very deceptive. I've run and maintained diesels in my boats for probably more than years than I'd guess you have been alive (just a guess, I'm old! ). I assure you, even with the extra emissions stuff on them, they are nowhere near as complicated as todays ridiculously complicated gassers.

 

[corneileous]

YOUR statement paraphrased is and was, "Eco Diesels are much more complicated than the gas motors". Nowhere did you state "the EMMISIONS part of diesel motors.....is more complicated...". And yes, I will argue the point until it is corrected. Simply stating the ED's are more complicated, is not anywhere remotely true and is very deceptive. I've run and maintained diesels in my boats for probably more than years than I'd guess you have been alive (just a guess, I'm old! [emoji6] ). I assure you, even with the extra emissions stuff on them, they are nowhere near as complicated as todays ridiculously complicated gassers.

Again, you keep focusing on the complete comparison of the two because no, I never did say that gas motors where more complicated than diesels. You need to go back and re-read the last paragraph of my post #79 which states-

Ever since about 2007, diesel motors have become far more complicated and have a lot more going on.

Just because I didn’t say it exact does not mean I was saying what you for some reason keep assuming I meant. The diesels today... have become far more complicated and complex than the old diesels from yesteryear. Why do you think we have specialized diesel mechanics? Gas motors don’t have that complex, “BS emissions crap” on them like diesels do.

Everybody else who’s responded seems to get it so why don’t you? Or are we gonna continue this redundant, mind-numbing sub-argument over the complete comparison of gas and diesel motors which- is from your behalf, that you can’t seem to let go of, not the rest of us. Lol.


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[Machria]

Again, you keep focusing on the complete comparison of the two because no, I never did say that gas motors where more complicated than diesels. You need to go back and re-read the last paragraph of my post #79 which states-


Just because I didn’t say it exact does not mean I was saying what you for some reason keep assuming I meant. The diesels today... have become far more complicated and complex than the old diesels from yesteryear. Why do you think we have specialized diesel mechanics? Gas motors don’t have that complex, “BS emissions crap” on them like diesels do.

Everybody else who’s responded seems to get it so why don’t you? Or are we gonna continue this redundant, mind-numbing sub-argument over the complete comparison of gas and diesel motors which- is from your behalf, that you can’t seem to let go of, not the rest of us. Lol.


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Really?? I'm not "assuming" anything. You keep pretending you didn't say "the ED is more complicated than the Hemi". You did!! THAT is exactly what you said. You did not say, the ED is more complicated than older diesels. Nobody is arguing that. We are comparing the ED (a modern day Diesel) to a modern day gasser, period. In that comparison, the ED is much less complicated than the gasser, period. Nobody will argue differently, especially people like myself who maintain them.

And by the way, since you brought it up again, gassers DO have "BS emissions crap" on them. Just as much as todays diesels. Is it the same BS? no. Is there other comparable stuff? yes. Go take a look at your fuel returns, fuel vapor vacuum hoses, fuel and air temp sensors (just replaced on my Range Rover last week!), O2 sensors, valve case vacuum hose and pump, exhaust vapor removing devices and lets not forget the $2500 Cat converter.

Now if you want to have another conversation, and say todays diesels are more complicated than yesteryear diesels, go right ahead, that is a true statement. AND likewise, todays gassers are MUCH more complicated than the gassers of yesteryears.

 

[Black W900]

Wow.....How many pages will be filled up with this ********?

 

[yillbs]

I've often debated the pros and cons of the eco diesel. The end is always the same.
The diesel has about 150 less horsepower and the same amount of torque. Yet, it's a what, 5k dollar upgrade? What is the actual useage of the eco diesel, i'm a bit curious myself. Other than saying " i have a diesel, what's the point "? It gets better gas mileage, but it costs more to fill it up. I literally see no benefit

 

[cbsmith]

I've often debated the pros and cons of the eco diesel. The end is always the same.
The diesel has about 150 less horsepower and the same amount of torque. Yet, it's a what, 5k dollar upgrade? What is the actual useage of the eco diesel, i'm a bit curious myself. Other than saying " i have a diesel, what's the point "? It gets better gas mileage, but it costs more to fill it up. I literally see no benefit

The only real way to get any significant benefit from it is if you drive a lot of miles towing a decent weight trailer. Towing the eco diesel mileage is a lot higher than the Hemi. That’s about the only way to save any money with it.

 

[yillbs]

The only real way to get any significant benefit from it is if you drive a lot of miles towing a decent weight trailer. Towing the eco diesel mileage is a lot higher than the Hemi. That’s about the only way to save any money with it.

Is this what people are purchasing the eco diesel for? Even the guy in this thread said it was for a daily driver. It can tow Less than a fully equipped hemi, costs more, and really doesn't even compare when it comes to cost of ownership. Sounds like a novelty situation for me. I mean, I guess if you towed 450k miles, and ALWAYS towed with it's max weight available i think you might come out on break even with the cost of a hemi. The initial investment up front requires you to spend hundreds of thousands of miles towing in order to recoup the cost you paid for it. i can pretty much say without a doubt the people buying those trucks are NOT buying them to just haul 9k pounds all day. If someone needed just a tow rig, they would get a 40k tradesman cummins like everyone else. So what gives, who's the market for FCA on this tiny little motor?

 

[Gero]

Most ed I see on the road are Laramie or higher trims with rarely a load which tells me it's for people that don't really need a pickup and can afford to spend $$$ upfront. I can admit I don't really need a pickup and bought a hemi ram because I wanted a pickup and that it's roomie and safe for the family. That's fine, if fca can make money selling ed then that's a great business move for them.

I love diesels and owned a mk4 alh tdi with 300xxxmiles that was modified to make double the hp and tq from the factory. I would buy the ed if it wasn't for the mandatory complicated after-treatment. I bet it can easily and reliably make 300whp and over 500wtq with no scr, bigger injectors and turbo.

Is this what people are purchasing the eco diesel for? Even the guy in this thread said it was for a daily driver. It can tow Less than a fully equipped hemi, costs more, and really doesn't even compare when it comes to cost of ownership. Sounds like a novelty situation for me. I mean, I guess if you towed 450k miles, and ALWAYS towed with it's max weight available i think you might come out on break even with the cost of a hemi. The initial investment up front requires you to spend hundreds of thousands of miles towing in order to recoup the cost you paid for it. i can pretty much say without a doubt the people buying those trucks are NOT buying them to just haul 9k pounds all day. If someone needed just a tow rig, they would get a 40k tradesman cummins like everyone else. So what gives, who's the market for FCA on this tiny little motor?

 

[yillbs]

Most ed I see on the road are Laramie or higher trims with rarely a load which tells me it's for people that don't really need a pickup and can afford to spend $$$ upfront. I can admit I don't really need a pickup and bought a hemi ram because I wanted a pickup and that it's roomie and safe for the family. That's fine, if fca can make money selling ed then that's a great business move for them.

I love diesels and owned a mk4 alh tdi with 300xxxmiles that was modified to make double the hp and tq from the factory. I would buy the ed if it wasn't for the mandatory complicated after-treatment. I bet it can easily and reliably make 300whp and over 500wtq with no scr, bigger injectors and turbo.

I guess you're right. I think it's geared towards people that way to be able to say " I have a diesel ", and nothing more.

 

[FXCLM5]

I guess you're right. I think it's geared towards people that way to be able to say " I have a diesel ", and nothing more.

sounds like you just jelly

rem diesels dont suffer as bad when you lift them

gen 4 trucks look great leveled or lifted

 

[GottaBeKD]

Most ed I see on the road are Laramie or higher trims with rarely a load which tells me it's for people that don't really need a pickup and can afford to spend $$$ upfront. I can admit I don't really need a pickup and bought a hemi ram because I wanted a pickup and that it's roomie and safe for the family. That's fine, if fca can make money selling ed then that's a great business move for them.

I love diesels and owned a mk4 alh tdi with 300xxxmiles that was modified to make double the hp and tq from the factory. I would buy the ed if it wasn't for the mandatory complicated after-treatment. I bet it can easily and reliably make 300whp and over 500wtq with no scr, bigger injectors and turbo.

215 failed ecodiesel engines a month... nothing to do with the emissions at this point. Countless emissions related BS to boot too.

I originally put a deposit on an ED... changed my order when that news made it out. Dropped a few trim levels and went with the Hemi sport to offset the price of fuel.

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[yillbs]

sounds like you just jelly

rem diesels dont suffer as bad when you lift them

gen 4 trucks look great leveled or lifted

I'm not sure jelly is the right word here lol. It's a 4k dollar upgrade, i don't really think people dropping 50k on a truck have an issue spending an extra 4k. The issue is not that we don't have the money, it's that most people don't want to spend a premium on an underpowered engine in a 6k pound truck. Your gas mileage won't break even on what the hemi does in gas for at least 100k miles.

 

[gypsy400]

I guess you're right. I think it's geared towards people that way to be able to say " I have a diesel ", and nothing more.

And you gotta think about it from a marketing point of view as well..

Ram can claim that they have the "most fuel efficient full size truck"

what they aren't saying is that it's not gas.. 4K up front cost and the break even point to a 3.6 pentastar is over 100kmiles with no breakdowns factored in. So the "cost of ownership" is actually more.

Ford and Chevy are jumping on the bandwagon too.
Ford now has a 3.0L powerstroke v6 which has similar power numbers to the ED.. the kicker is that the diesel will only be offered on higher trim levels to consumers, fleet customers can buy a base model diesel.

Chevy is bringing out a straight 6 3L in the fall.. so there has to be something to it from a business sense.

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[yillbs]

And you gotta think about it from a marketing point of view as well..

Ram can claim that they have the "most fuel efficient full size truck"

what they aren't saying is that it's not gas.. 4K up front cost and the break even point to a 3.6 pentastar is over 100kmiles with no breakdowns factored in. So the "cost of ownership" is actually more.

Ford and Chevy are jumping on the bandwagon too.
Ford now has a 3.0L powerstroke v6 which has similar power numbers to the ED.. the kicker is that the diesel will only be offered on higher trim levels to consumers, fleet customers can buy a base model diesel.

Chevy is bringing out a straight 6 3L in the fall.. so there has to be something to it from a business sense.

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I completely agree. I'm speaking from a consumer perspective. What's the actual benefit to the consumer, other than a few MPG. It's really a rhetorical question I guess, because people are going to argue back and fourth forever, as long as they have to justify why they spent so much on an engine upgrade that doesn't offer anything unique or better than what already exists. So it's a moot point, but I would still like to " know " the logic.

 

[corneileous]

Really?? I'm not "assuming" anything.

Then what would you call it??

You keep pretending you didn't say "the ED is more complicated than the Hemi". You did!! THAT is exactly what you said. You did not say, the ED is more complicated than older diesels. Nobody is arguing that.

Below is all of the posts I’ve made here in this discussion, not including this one so uh, tell me exactly where I said the Eco Diesel is more complicated than the Hemi.

http://www.ramforum.com/threads/ecodiesel.112685/page-2#post-1620089

http://www.ramforum.com/threads/ecodiesel.112685/page-4#post-1621389

http://www.ramforum.com/threads/ecodiesel.112685/page-7#post-1683957

http://www.ramforum.com/threads/ecodiesel.112685/page-7#post-1703294

http://www.ramforum.com/threads/ecodiesel.112685/page-7#post-1704884

http://www.ramforum.com/threads/ecodiesel.112685/page-8#post-1718597

http://www.ramforum.com/threads/ecodiesel.112685/page-9#post-1719280

http://www.ramforum.com/threads/ecodiesel.112685/page-9#post-1719916

We are comparing the ED (a modern day Diesel) to a modern day gasser, period.

No, WE are not arguing this ****, YOU are. You first started spouting this nonsense all the way back to this post you made LAST YEAR. You’re the one who’s infatuated with it. Everybody see’s it.

In that comparison, the ED is much less complicated than the gasser, period. Nobody will argue differently, especially people like myself who maintain them.

In what comparison??? Once again man, gas engines don’t have that highly-technical emissions crap like DPF’s and DEF. Get that through your head!!...

And by the way, since you brought it up again, gassers DO have "BS emissions crap" on them. Just as much as todays diesels. Is it the same BS? no. Is there other comparable stuff? yes. Go take a look at your fuel returns, fuel vapor vacuum hoses, fuel and air temp sensors (just replaced on my Range Rover last week!), O2 sensors, valve case vacuum hose and pump, exhaust vapor removing devices and lets not forget the $2500 Cat converter.

Sorry but uh, I don’t consider DPF’s and DEF systems as “Just as much as today’s diesels” for gas motors.

All that other stuff you mentioned above is nothing more than a fart in windstorm compared to diesel emissions.

Now if you want to have another conversation, and say todays diesels are more complicated than yesteryear diesels, go right ahead, that is a true statement.

No. Not just no, but hell no. I didn’t even wanna discuss this part.

AND likewise, todays gassers are MUCH more complicated than the gassers of yesteryears.

Who in the hell cares? Your diatribe is utterly amazing and I don’t mean in a good way. Have you nothing better to do?




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