Synthetic Oil

Oil of Choice

  • Castrol Syntec/Edge

    Votes: 233 8.4%
  • Royal Purple

    Votes: 325 11.7%
  • AMSOil

    Votes: 396 14.3%
  • Valvoline Synpower

    Votes: 160 5.8%
  • Mobil 1

    Votes: 992 35.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 660 23.9%

  • Total voters
    2,766

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ramffml

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I wonder if I should be concerned about how quickly Red Line turns brown and the smokey smell that I noticed on the dipstick oil. Euro oils have almost no smokey smell to them. Do you think that means anything?

If the oil gets dirty fast its doing its job and cleaning everything. Oil that doesn't look dirty isn't doing any cleaning.
 

Treburkulosis

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What viscosity Castrol EDGE are you running, and what kind of MPG are you getting?

I used this stuff to clean 3 GDI engines of soot and other crap that accumulated over the years: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/AICLM2037?impressionRank=1

That Liqui Moly Pro-Line Engine Flush is way more effective than Lubegard Engine Flush (I used it once in my Hemi). I never tried Seafoam, though.
That what you linked might be pretty good. I’ve never used it personally. When I started my seafoam flush I had really nothing to go by. I have used seafoam for years and years. The LS1 F bodies for years built up a ton of carbon. That’s what I used to clean them out and keep them ticking. I just approached my new to me Hemi as a LS1. It’s worked out minus with mine liking Mobil 1. Every truck is different. I run seafoam through it all. I did my top end earlier this year. First time. Not a lot of smoke as I thought I would have. It’s clean. 142k, oil pressure is 65 or 3/4 on the actual gauge. Hot idle is between half and 1/2 so 55. I’ll never forget walking out on a humid spring day amf starting my truck. I thought maybe it was the exhaust manifolds ticking. Nope Im the lucky one who has the stock ones. It was tickin and bad. It got some hail on the hood and so when it went into the body shop and when it came back it sounded like I was about loss the top end. I drove it back easily and then added seafoam to the crank case. I drove it 100 miles at 60 mph. It was ticking bad the entire time. Pulled in and switched over to Castrol edge 5w20. Discovered the puralator boss filter and here I am almost 6 years later no tick. thats what solved mine. Personally if it we’re my truck and it was higher milage, I’d got 150 miles. Really work it in there. Every motor is different, that’s how I fixed mine.
 

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How well do they stick? I recently pulled off the passenger side valve cover and underneath it was very clean and almost bone dry. Been running Red Line 5W-30 for a few months now and several thousand miles.

The only true negative I noticed about Red Line 5W-30 is that my MPG went down when compared to 0W-40, and seriously went down when compared to 5W-20 ILSAC oils. I am looking at 15 highway and 13 city. That can't be just the crappy winter gasoline, or can it? I also run a 180F t-stat.

I wonder if I should be concerned about how quickly Red Line turns brown and the smokey smell that I noticed on the dipstick oil. Euro oils have almost no smokey smell to them. Do you think that means anything?

Feel free to research how esters adhere to metallic surfaces. I reported what I read about polyol ester physical properties from an academic website way up in this thread. What is "bone dry"? Was surface inspected by spectrometer for lubricant residual?

Red Line ester oil out of the container is a darker, reddish color. It appears and smells different than API Group III and IV oils. It is also slightly denser than those oils. The ester base oil is a chemical reaction of an acid and an alcohol. Has nothing at all to do with reconstructed crude oil hydrocarbons.

Winter gasoline in the US is indeed "crappy" in terms of energy density. EPA allows a large increase in Reid Vapor Pressure to promote low ambient temp ignitability. Recall that only vapors burn - not liquids. This is even more critical with direct injection GDI engines that have much less time to vaporize injected fuel than port injection. I don't recall % differences, something like 10-15% lower mileage. I do not know if this is a continental EPA requirement. I suspect so, as it would be too difficult to run multiple RVP fuels to different states, as these are base stock gasoline. Also don't recall EPA dates.....Oct to Mar or some such.

You can google all this stuff.
 

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I am starting to think its a parts issue but i dont really agree with him that the 2015s on up dont have these failures when thats just not true. We have seen plenty tick or fail 2015 on up and the lifter updates dont seem to change that fact
 

Hemi395

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I am starting to think its a parts issue but i dont really agree with him that the 2015s on up dont have these failures when thats just not true. We have seen plenty tick or fail 2015 on up and the lifter updates dont seem to change that fact
me either, I've seen many post 2015 trucks with bad cam/lifters on here and on FB
 

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so far he is like tony, takes a while to get to the point, but Ill listen all the way. He is a good dude, only charges 3600 for a 4 wheel drive cam/lifters, 3100 for a 2wd. I wonder, why the difference in cost from 2wd to 4wd? He mentions the window for it as well, 70k miles is when these cams fail.

I dont think he got to the point other then he didnt think 2016 didnt have it? I must have missed it and I aint listening to him again. Does he think the newer needle bearings is preventing the fail? What did he say is the cause?
 
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Travis8352

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so far he is like tony, takes a while to get to the point, but Ill listen all the way. He is a good dude, only charges 3600 for a 4 wheel drive cam/lifters, 3100 for a 2wd. I wonder, why the difference in cost from 2wd to 4wd? He mentions the window for it as well, 70k miles is when these cams fail.

I dont think he got to the point other then he didnt think 2016 didnt have it? I must have missed it and I aint listening to him again. Does he think the newer needle bearings is preventing the fail? What did he say is the cause?
From what i gather he believa the cause is cheap parts from the 09-14 my engines and that the 15 and up dont have issues due to the updated lifters but we have seen many failures with 15 and newer engines. Hes also very adamant about using oem parts. He makes some good points though
 

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thanks, that is what I gathered. Good dude a lot of good info, especially noting the prevalence of the issue, talk to that guy, all hemis will fail, lol. He would know. Good video, but I don't think he answered to the why.
 

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FCA changed vendors and design of the lifters in model year 2017 to attempt to get reliability up. Never saw any data from techs if failure rates went down. Notably, nothing was done to improve lubrication to the lifter rollers that I can find.

"The BGE engines have also benefited from a redesign of the lifters that is now standard on all production Gen III Hemis. The lifter axles and bearing needles have been subjected to carbon-nitriding and also have been cryo-stabilized. All of this contributes to a stronger lifter and is completely interchangeable with all Gen III Hemi variants. These are the lifters that should be included with any performance camshaft upgrade. We found part number 05038784AD under Mopar lifters in the Summit Racing catalog that offers four lifters and a dedicated holder, which would require four of these PN’s for a complete set."
 

Rod Knock

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Russel Crowe is right on the money. You can tell that, unlike Uncle Tony, this guy builds Hemis. It's pretty much the same thing that my engine builder friend told me and that I talked about here, and when I did it, certain people "yelled" at me. It's a materials issue. I've been inside enough diesel engines that had a very rough life, and one thing they never had was cam failures. Those cams will run for several million miles without any issues because they are properly built. The only thing that both the guy in the video and my engine build friend failed to mention was that all lifters (MDS and non-MDS) also get extra oil when MDS is activated. However, if you watch Reignited on YouTube, he mentions that.

Thanks for posting this.

If you want some excellent lifters, I believe this is it: https://johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicRollerLifters.aspx

Feel free to research how esters adhere to metallic surfaces. I reported what I read about polyol ester physical properties from an academic website way up in this thread. What is "bone dry"? Was surface inspected by spectrometer for lubricant residual?
If you recall, this has been discussed to death, and I wasn't looking to spark a new debate or had any questions about how Red Line Oil works, as most, if not all, of it, is just speculation based on Red Line's marketing materials. Yes, it bothers me that they have gone even more secretive, and now their MSDS looks more cryptic than what Castrol and others put out. I know that MSDS documents are meant to be misleading but familiar: "90% synthetic," that's all they say now. We don't know anything about it other than "Ester Formula" on the bottle. I get that it's a trade secret, so I don't even want to speculate. As an engineer, you should at the very least be a little bit concerned about the lack of engine sequence testing.

In one of my conversations with Pat Burrow from Lubegard about mixing various Lubegard additives with Red Line, he said:

The Redline products are always interesting but generally tend to meet their own requirements and don't go the formal certification process the others go through. Not necessarily a good or bad thing, just something to consider.

And before you point the finger at AMSOIL, keep in mind that AMSOIL works closely with Lubrizol and Afton Chemicals, amongst others, to be as compliant as possible, and many of their oils carry official OEM approvals.

Now, do I think Red Line makes terrible products? No, I don't. It's more like hit or miss, and that's why I like to share my experience with it and get input from others. For example, their Diesel engine oil is crap, handles soot very poorly. I wouldn't think that their gasoline engine oils do any better with soot, so I doubt that Red Line is an excellent choice for GDI engines. LSPI isn't a concern, though, and I'm sure Red Line does fine here.

Red Line ester oil out of the container is a darker, reddish color. It appears and smells different than API Group III and IV oils. It is also slightly denser than those oils. The ester base oil is a chemical reaction of an acid and an alcohol. Has nothing at all to do with reconstructed crude oil hydrocarbons.
I was amazed at Red Line's properties when I first got it. I was even more surprised at cleaning the oxidation off the RP 20-820 oil filter when priming it and got some extra oil at the top. As I was whipping it off, the oxidation came off with the oil, and the rag turned dark, almost black. It's exciting stuff.

You can google all this stuff.
While I appreciate your input, expertise, and knowledge, you are not obliged to respond to my comments. I would be saddened if you didn't. However, I would try to find answers somewhere else. Thank you for your comments though, I appreciate it.

FCA changed vendors and design of the lifters in model year 2017 to attempt to get reliability up. Never saw any data from techs if failure rates went down. Notably, nothing was done to improve lubrication to the lifter rollers that I can find.

"The BGE engines have also benefited from a redesign of the lifters that is now standard on all production Gen III Hemis. The lifter axles and bearing needles have been subjected to carbon-nitriding and also have been cryo-stabilized. All of this contributes to a stronger lifter and is completely interchangeable with all Gen III Hemi variants. These are the lifters that should be included with any performance camshaft upgrade. We found part number 05038784AD under Mopar lifters in the Summit Racing catalog that offers four lifters and a dedicated holder, which would require four of these PN’s for a complete set."
All answers in front of you guys, contained in this article posted by @HEMIMANN - https://www.holley.com/blog/post/everything_you_wanted_to_know_about_gen_iii_hemi_engines/

The pump pushes oil into the main galley that runs down the middle of the block. This latest Hemi oils the engine in a similar fashion to other V8 engines in the first part of the circuit. The main oil galley that is fed oil from the filter runs front-to-back with passages feeding downward to the main bearings (and rods) and upward to the cam bearings.

A third passage off the main galley is connected directly to the cylinder heads through the block. Oil is routed through the rocker shafts to lube the shaft bushings, the rocker arms, top of the valves, and pushrod tips. This circuit also feeds oil down through the pushrods down to the hydraulic roller tappets. This makes for a rather circuitous path that places oil into the lifter body as the farthest point from the origin at the oil pump.


Look at what I highlighted in orange. So much for "splash lubrication." This is good info, thanks @HEMIMANN. I hope it won't be rejected in favor of "Uncle's Tony Explanation" and other nonsense.
 
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ramffml

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He does tend to ramble, probably not all that comfortable behind the camera.

In his opinion: it's a parts issue only. For 2009 to 2014 models FCA changed vendors for the lifters to save money. GM did the same thing, and had the same failures.

Also he mentions that 2006(?) to 2008 they added mds, and they didn't have the lifter failures in those years. But clearly, "lack of crank splash" is not the problem.

So in my very uneducated opinion, "parts failure" makes sense. It's one of the few theories that explains why it happens to one lifter in an engine, while the other lifters are 100% perfect condition. When you talk about crank splash or poor design or idling, those theories do not explain why it DOESN'T happen to other lifters in the same engine, or why some engines fail at 50,000 miles whereas the same design/idling behaviour does not wreck another engine which is at 200K miles and still has perfect lifters.

If you have a theory, it's not enough to explain why it happens to some lifters; the same theory needs to explain why it doesn't happen to the other lifters in the engine, or to another completely different engine.

The only other theory (other than parts failure) that makes sense to me is dirty oil taking out the needle bearings.

These 2 theories explain why it happens randomly to some lifters, but the rest of the engine is still flawless.
 

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He does tend to ramble, probably not all that comfortable behind the camera.

In his opinion: it's a parts issue only. For 2009 to 2014 models FCA changed vendors for the lifters to save money. GM did the same thing, and had the same failures.

Also he mentions that 2006(?) to 2008 they added mds, and they didn't have the lifter failures in those years. But clearly, "lack of crank splash" is not the problem.

So in my very uneducated opinion, "parts failure" makes sense. It's one of the few theories that explains why it happens to one lifter in an engine, while the other lifters are 100% perfect condition. When you talk about crank splash or poor design or idling, those theories do not explain why it DOESN'T happen to other lifters in the same engine, or why some engines fail at 50,000 miles whereas the same design/idling behaviour does not wreck another engine which is at 200K miles and still has perfect lifters.

If you have a theory, it's not enough to explain why it happens to some lifters; the same theory needs to explain why it doesn't happen to the other lifters in the engine, or to another completely different engine.

The only other theory (other than parts failure) that makes sense to me is dirty oil taking out the needle bearings.

These 2 theories explain why it happens randomly to some lifters, but the rest of the engine is still flawless.

I usually apply what I preach. IMHO the biggest problem with vehicles, in general, is the owner, lack of maintenance, and the nut behind the wheel.

In the case of our trucks, this translates to something like this: the HEMIs are set to run hot. When you start towing, the engine heat tends to cascade fast and grow exponentially. Most run-of-the-mill fuel economy oils can't deal with that very well, so varnish builds up. Oxidation takes place, wear increases due to poor lubrication. I'm talking about ILSAC oils here. That, coupled with inconsistent parts suppliers and questionable assembly leads to problems.

The best thing I did for my HEMI was to put in a 180F Mishimoto racing thermostat and a partial grille shutter delete. I still have good heat in winter, and my coolant and oil temperature sits at 185F. In summer, I rarely get above 190F, mainly only when towing I get up to 200F to 210F, and that's with 3000~4000 lbs behind me. I keep my HEMI very clean as evidenced by the pictures I posted. I ran the numbers with a cSt temperature calculator, and both Red Line 5W-30 and Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 are actually too thick for my engine at this point. I may just go back to 5W-20, one of the major brands, either PP, PUP, M1, or Castrol, or even QS. They are all great oils. The entire point of running a thicker oil was to compensate for the runaway thermal issues. At 185F, 5W-20 is around 12~12.5 cSt. I can only reach full operating temp when towing, in summer, and I live in the south. Heat is definitively a contributing issue to cam & lifter failures, coupled with poor lubrication, questionable parts, and questionable assembly. On mine, the passenger side exhaust manifold wasn't evenly torqued, which is what leads to it warping and snapping off some bolts. Not all HEMIs are built equally. So far mine had a severely leaking valve cover gasket and broken exhaust manifold bolt that was ticking and sounded like a playing card in a bicycle wheel at higher RPM.

IMHO the best thing you can do for a HEMI is to run it cooler, and adjust your oil viscosity to your needs. Will it hurt my Hemi to run Red Line 5W-30 or M1 0W-40 at 17 ~ 18 cSt all day? Probably not, but it hurts fuel economy for sure.

On the flip side, I think that this is exactly where ILSAC fuel economy oils fail: high-heat and high-load situations. I lump them all together because there isn't actually much difference in real life between 0W-20, 5W-20, and 5W-30 as far as running these oils beyond operating temperatures. Mobil 1 EP 0W-20 has a 40C cSt of 55, while Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 is 60. Their operating cSt is 8.6 and 10.6. So one has nearly no VI, while the other one is loaded with it.

I've seen abused HEMIs, and Reignited showed at least one on his YouTube channel, that had cracked on oil and varnish at nearly 200K miles on the inside, and the rollers and cam were just fine. In fact, he reused them when he rebuilt the engine. What does that tell you?

Conclusion time:

It's a combination of factors like poorly made parts, rushed/improper assembly, contamination (factory cleanliness), running the engine hot constantly on thin oil, poor maintenance, and so on. Just running a fancy oil like Red Line or [insert your expensive brand here] is not good enough to mitigate the issue, especially if you don't do anything else to the engine. I have yet to see oil or additive that can alone fix or mitigate anything. Like with everything else, Murphy's law applies here as well.
 

Burla

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He does tend to ramble, probably not all that comfortable behind the camera.

In his opinion: it's a parts issue only. For 2009 to 2014 models FCA changed vendors for the lifters to save money. GM did the same thing, and had the same failures.

Also he mentions that 2006(?) to 2008 they added mds, and they didn't have the lifter failures in those years. But clearly, "lack of crank splash" is not the problem.

So in my very uneducated opinion, "parts failure" makes sense. It's one of the few theories that explains why it happens to one lifter in an engine, while the other lifters are 100% perfect condition. When you talk about crank splash or poor design or idling, those theories do not explain why it DOESN'T happen to other lifters in the same engine, or why some engines fail at 50,000 miles whereas the same design/idling behaviour does not wreck another engine which is at 200K miles and still has perfect lifters.

If you have a theory, it's not enough to explain why it happens to some lifters; the same theory needs to explain why it doesn't happen to the other lifters in the engine, or to another completely different engine.

The only other theory (other than parts failure) that makes sense to me is dirty oil taking out the needle bearings.

These 2 theories explain why it happens randomly to some lifters, but the rest of the engine is still flawless.
The real question is why are as many as 1/2 of the damaged cam lobs have perfectly in tact needle bearings in that lifter? The chicken or the egg argument, which came first needle bearing fails or lifters that do not lift fast enough for the cam lob that just hit it? My theory day one, perpendicular force on the lifter body is the cause, needle bearings are just one symptom. I have heard zero in a decade to get me off that.

This condition is an extreme pressure situation, use EP base oils and additives they have been proven here with great success at killing ticks and great long term uoas in hemi tick engines. The other question is what is the best way to protect a properly running hemi that may not have perpendicular force on the lifters.

The good news, we have 2 options and there is no downside to either formula, redline or lubegard. In my life I never thought I would even utter the words lubrication strategy. Then enter me purchasing a hemi, and thanks 100's of guys on the board we have real answers backed by science and not feelings or agendas which always get exposed. Never before has a lubrication strategy been so beneficial. If someone tells you to run an oil that makes your truck tick because "he" thinks it is best for you, tell him you heard about a new diet that includes eating sharp objects and that is would be great for him, because the only way to combat stupid statements is to be stupider, lol.
 

HEMIMANN

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I wouldn't be here if I hadn't seen member correlation between increased lubrication and lessened lifter ticking and failure.
The fact I experienced this personally on my previous 2012 Ram is beside the point.

Opinions are part of any forum, but repeating a debunked theory repeatedly without new information isn't useful.
 

ramffml

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The real question is why are as many as 1/2 of the damaged cam lobs have perfectly in tact needle bearings in that lifter? The chicken or the egg argument, which came first needle bearing fails or lifters that do not lift fast enough for the cam lob that just hit it? My theory day one, perpendicular force on the lifter body is the cause, needle bearings are just one symptom. I have heard zero in a decade to get me off that.

Of the 2 theories I mentioned, dirty oil would not be the cause for what you described; but that doesn't necessarily mean that dirty oil can't cause lifter failures in some cases.

However, poor quality lifters from the vendor would still explain why the one lifter in that engine failed, and the rest are perfect.

I'd have a hard time pinning this on "lifters that do not lift fast enough"; the lifters roll on the cam at all times, the spring keeps them pushed up against it. At no point in time is there ever any clearance between lobe and lifter (other than the clearance created by oil etc). You'd have to get well north of rpm redline in order for that to be a problem, and it's one of the main reasons why redline is where it is (springs can't keep up).
 

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Opinions are part of any forum, but repeating a debunked theory repeatedly without new information isn't useful.
Which debunked theory?

However, poor quality lifters from the vendor would still explain why the one lifter in that engine failed, and the rest are perfect.
For Chrysler, these problems started appearing around the time they went bankrupt. Before that, the biggest problem was dropped valve seats.
 

ramffml

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For Chrysler, these problems started appearing around the time they went bankrupt. Before that, the biggest problem was dropped valve seats.

Yes, no doubt lifter failure is still a problem in current hemis, but there are a lot of mechanics now on youtube (yeah I know, not the most credible source but still) who say the vast majority of these failures are occurring in that period of time from 2009 to 2014.

I have no doubt that we will continue to read reports of lifters failing, but it's a mechanical engine with human/manufacturing flaws so that is expected. But that wave of huge failures does seem to be in that period of 5 years.
 

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Yes, no doubt lifter failure is still a problem in current hemis, but there are a lot of mechanics now on youtube (yeah I know, not the most credible source but still) who say the vast majority of these failures are occurring in that period of time from 2009 to 2014.

I have no doubt that we will continue to read reports of lifters failing, but it's a mechanical engine with human/manufacturing flaws so that is expected. But that wave of huge failures does seem to be in that period of 5 years.

I'm at 40K with my 2016, as it's not being driven a lot. I love driving it, and I just did a bunch of work on the truck, but gas is expensive. I got a PPE transmission pan, did a triple drain and fill with AMSOIL ATL, fixed the leaking exhaust manifold, valve cover gasket, put Akebono Ultra Performance (GG friction rating) all around, and flushed the brake fluid with Motul DOT 5.1. It runs great. I don't know if I'll stay with Red Line or not, because I have a huge stash of other excellent oils, plus my Hemi is running pretty cool with that 180F t-stat and almost no grille shutters.

All in all I hope I don't experience lifter failure any time soon. I've seen a 2017 with 68K miles at the local stealership with failed lifters So I think it's still a hit or miss issue, here and there. If it happens to me I'll get a set of Johnson lifters and a forged cam and remove the MDS completely and disable it from the computer. And if I go that far, I'll also upgrade the oil pump, put a new timing chain on, and whatever else I can replace that's a wear item while I'm in there. It is what it is, and given the current market situation, I've come to grips with the fact that I might need to work on this engine myself one day. And that's cool because I love my truck.
 

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I'm at 40K with my 2016, as it's not being driven a lot. I love driving it, and I just did a bunch of work on the truck, but gas is expensive. I got a PPE transmission pan, did a triple drain and fill with AMSOIL ATL, fixed the leaking exhaust manifold, valve cover gasket, put Akebono Ultra Performance (GG friction rating) all around, and flushed the brake fluid with Motul DOT 5.1. It runs great. I don't know if I'll stay with Red Line or not, because I have a huge stash of other excellent oils, plus my Hemi is running pretty cool with that 180F t-stat and almost no grille shutters.

All in all I hope I don't experience lifter failure any time soon. I've seen a 2017 with 68K miles at the local stealership with failed lifters So I think it's still a hit or miss issue, here and there. If it happens to me I'll get a set of Johnson lifters and a forged cam and remove the MDS completely and disable it from the computer. And if I go that far, I'll also upgrade the oil pump, put a new timing chain on, and whatever else I can replace that's a wear item while I'm in there. It is what it is, and given the current market situation, I've come to grips with the fact that I might need to work on this engine myself one day. And that's cool because I love my truck.
78k so far and all is well for me. I put off lots of the preventive things i wanted to do this year cause of toght money
 
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