Too Much WD?

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Mcgruff

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I started out setting up my Equal-I-zer meticulously per the instructions, bringing the front halfway back to its unloaded height. Slow speeds were fine, but I had an unnerving “wiggle” at or above 60mph. Felt like the trailer was pushing my back end around.

I added more WD and got the front height back to unloaded height. Improvement but still not comfortable.

Seeing some posts on this forum I used the CAT scales to evenly load my axles (about 3400# each). This is significantly better, and with some air in my Airlift 1000s to remove bounce (think it helped with the push/pull feel on bumpy roads) I’d call it acceptable, ALMOST comfortable. Part of it may simply be me getting used to towing a large TT. I used to have an F250 and 5th wheel. I got pushed around a bit in that too but it’s a different feeling.

I’ve seen other posts say to make front and rear squat evenly. This suggests adding even weight. i.e. if my truck gets heavier by 800#s the front should get 400 of that and the rear 400. This would make the front much heavier than the rear (as it is when unloaded). This seems like a lot of load to put on the WD hitch. I’d like to try it, but I already feel like I’m gong to rip the hitch off the truck in the upward direction.

Any thoughts, advice or experience is greatly appreciated.
 
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sandawilliams

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I started out setting up my Equal-I-zer meticulously per the instructions, bringing the front halfway back to its unloaded height. Slow speeds were fine, but I had an unnerving “wiggle” at or above 60mph. Felt like the trailer was pushing my back end around.

I added more WD and got the front height back to unloaded height. Improvement but still not comfortable.

Seeing some posts on this forum I used the CAT scales to evenly load my axles (about 3400# each). This is significantly better, and with some air in my Airlift 1000s to remove bounce (think it helped with the push/pull feel on bumpy roads) I’d call it acceptable, ALMOST comfortable. Part of it may simply be me getting used to towing a large TT. I used to have an F250 and 5th wheel. I got pushed around a bit in that too but it’s a different feeling.

I’ve seen other posts say to make front and rear squat evenly. This suggests adding even weight. i.e. if my truck gets heavier by 800#s the front should get 400 of that and the rear 400. This would make the front much heavier than the rear (as it is when unloaded). This seems like a lot of load to put on the WD hitch. I’d like to try it, but I already feel like I’m gong to rip the hitch off the truck in the upward direction.

Any thoughts, advice or experience is greatly appreciated.


You need some squat in the rear of the truck if your hitch is adjusted right. 10 Ply tires on the truck is almost a requirement to get rid of the sidewall flex that your stock passenger tires have under load.
 

VernDiesel

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3,400 each is ideal. You still need 10 to 15 percent tongue weight. Loaded combined truck weight axles less unloaded combined truck weight axles take that number divide it into the gross trailer weight. The result is your TW percentage.

FYI You properly calculate TW like this when using a WDH because this is how TW is seen by the truck IE with a WDH TW is dynamic over all axles and is no longer static weight.

Axles evenly split, TW in range, all tires properly inflated you won't have sway unless you are trying to pull a long box front at great speed. At which point sway control helps, more weight on the truck helps, and as mentioned higher weight load stiffer sidewall tires. Wind or semi bow wave will push you more like one unit instead of wiggling truck and trailer. That said its still not going to feel quite the same as a GN or 5th wheel.

You know though with respects to tires I tow TT/THs & boats commercially with a 1500 series (diesel) sometimes with a motorcycle or other things in the bed. Even with max combined axle weight of 7,800 on the truck I can't discern any more wiggle slop or trailer push from 275/55/20 XL loads (a step up from standard or p load tires) than I do from 265/60/20 E loads (10 plys). 436k on the truck towing traffic, windy plains and mountains. I think you need to have more than 2,000 pounds on each tire to make a discernible difference well or perhaps disastrous loading / weight distribution. I currently have two sets of factory rims each set of four with the tires described. When the E loads are worn out I am not buying another set except for on a much heavier HD truck that will at times be loaded to more than 2k per tire. E loads are just expensive heavy and harsher riding on a 1500 in my experience.
 
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Mcgruff

Mcgruff

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Thanks for the replies. I did upgrade to 10 ply tires. I couldn’t tell any difference, although I’m still debating on PSI. I run 40 all-around unloaded and I think that’s good. Towing I’ve tried it with 65 all-around, 55 all-around, and F55/R65 with no difference in feel. Don’t want to go over 65 as I know that’s what the standard valve stems are rested for.

VernDiesel,
You make a very interesting point about TW. I measured by going though scales with truck only and then again hitched with no WD. I got 8100# for the trailer with a little over 1000# or 12.5% TW. so I figured all is good. The way you figure it, Truck goes from 6100# unloaded to 6800# hitched with WD. That’d only be 800# or 9.9% ! Maybe. Need to throw a cinderblock or two in the front and try it out.


I’ve been so frustrated that (somewhat to my wife’s chagrin) I found a “great” deal on a barely used Propride last weekend and spent all Saturday hooking it up. It’s awesome for keeping the TT glued to the TV. Didn’t have much time to test, but I got on a stretch of 4-lane by myself and did some high speed quick lane changes that I think would have scared the crap out of me with the equalizer. I don’t think I could shake it loose if I tried. Handled like one solid unit, more like a big Class A MH (I’ve driven many miles in my-laws). That said, it STILL wiggles/wriggles/wobbles going in a straight line down the interstates, exactly the same as the equalizer at 60-65mph.

The PP does make me feel like I’d be able to manage a blowout or emergency maneuver better. I assume anyway.
 
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VernDiesel

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Check your math. 6,800 Less 6,100 is 700 not 800.

8100 divided into 700 is 8.6 percent. Too light no wonder she wants to wander.

But as founder of Airstream said not all who wander are lost. Or was that all who wonder. Lol

PP is an outstanding hitch. Not always the most user friendly for us who change up trucks & trailers and sometimes have to hook up on not so even terrain. But no sway and easy to dial in WD on the scale. Owner of PP is a straight up guy & sent us some parts for free once.
 
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Mcgruff

Mcgruff

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Lol. Thanks. You’re correct. I have a page full of weights, wheel well heights, calculations, estimations, etc. Some taken before and some after PP. I need to throw it all out and start over. I haven’t been able to find any other source that talks about measuring tongue weight the way you suggest, but I think you’ve got to be on to something. I should hopefully be able to do some testing Friday since we’re leaving Sunday for week camping at the lake.
 

mtofell

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It's always a balance between keeping enough tongue weight for a stable tow and not overloading the rear axle. With a past chain adjust WDH I remember if I set it too tight I'd lose traction when accelerating after going over bumps. Especially on wet pavement. The WDH is basically trying to lift your rear wheels off the ground.

I'm in a 5th wheel now so I don't know all the ins/outs of the modern WDH systems but the physics should be the same. I had a few different trucks/trailers and with each one it was a matter of setting it up properly and then fine tuning as I got familiar with it.
 

csuder99

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It's always a balance between keeping enough tongue weight for a stable tow and not overloading the rear axle. With a past chain adjust WDH I remember if I set it too tight I'd lose traction when accelerating after going over bumps. Especially on wet pavement. The WDH is basically trying to lift your rear wheels off the ground.

Exactly. That's one of my pet peeves, a lot of people are AR about getting the weight distribution right but don't understand how the spring bars affect the on-road manners of the rig. You could use I-beams to get the weight distribution right, it just wouldn't drive that well... :p

OP: What spring bars are on your hitch ? Sounds like less hitch weight distribution and more air spring support makes it better ?
 
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Mcgruff

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OP: What spring bars are on your hitch ? Sounds like less hitch weight distribution and more air spring support makes it better ?

My new (to me) hitch is a ProPride P3 with 1400# bars, having "upgraded" from an Equal-i-zer with 1200# bars.

Most Recent Test/First test with PP: 65 PSI in E rated tires and 5 PSI Airlift 1000 airbags (the minimum). I read somewhere Sean from PP say that airbags were unnecessary, so I figured I'd start there. Took a guess at WD setting and had a wild ride to the truck stop. If I got up to 60mph I had to work to keep it from floating out of the lane. Scales had me at:

FA 3340 lbs
RA 3500 lbs
TA 7240 lbs

I added more WD to put it at:
FA 3420 lbs
RA 3400 lbs
TA 7280 lbs

Took it on a 5 mile test run. It was definitely better (not floating out of the lane anymore) but I still didn't feel fully in control. Like the back end of the truck was shifting back and forth an inch or two constantly.

No scales at the next exit, but I gassed up and increased airbags to 30 PSI. I believe this should have decreased WD by changing the angle of the truck. The drive home was once again improved and I felt more confident that I wasn't going to loose control. Keeping the airbags inflated I think is going to be a must. I can get by with where it is, and maybe I just need to relax, but I think any future trip with over 50 interstate miles would probably have me feeling stressed and exhausted by the end.

My next test plan is to air up the bags first and then scale/adjust it to get even weight on both axles.

Increasing the tongue weight is worth a try, but I can't figure out how to "shift" much of anything to the front. Rear of camper has an outdoor kitchen on one side and small storage compartment on the other with just a few light things in it. Plus I have a bike rack that I would like to be able to put on the back. I can load sandbags in the front for a test, but seems a shame to have to drag those around all the time if I had to.

I read elsewhere some recommendations to bring the nose of the trailer down a little even though I'm currently level. Unfortunately my trailer seems to sit abnormally low (compared to others I've seen who posted their measurements) and I'm maxed out on my hitch drop. Would have to spend $190 on a longer one just to try that out.
 

csuder99

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I'm thinking your spring bars are too stiff. With a 8k loaded trailer weight the tongue weight is going to be somewhere in the 1000-1100 lbs range. The WDH makes the rear of the truck less compliant, meaning it inhibits the rear to move downwards which leads to the rear axle unloading. mtofell described one of the unwanted effects above and I think what you're seeing is related.

For testing you could try to reduce the WD or even remove the bars to see how it affects the rear end feel but be careful as the steer axle gets lighter. Ideally you could borrow a 1000 lbs TW hitch.
 
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Mcgruff

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csder99 - My equalizer had 1200lb bars. My new (to me) ProPride has 1400lb bars that are supposed to be good for 900 to 1400. Next lower option is 700-1000lb bars which is not enough. First time I took weights I calculated tongue at 1020 or 12.5% of 8160, but too many variables have changes since then. I need to start fresh.

VernDiesel (and others) - I didn't get an opportunity to weigh on this trip, but I really went out of my way to move weight to the front of the trailer. Bags of char-coal, extra water and drinks, wood blocks, etc. I got a new cast-iron propane griddle for father's day and shoved it in the front compartment. It has to weigh a good 80lbs. The rig drove like a champ on the way there! I really couldn't ask for better. At speeds up to 65mph (fastest I got) it felt like I was driving a bus. Very solid. It was a short trip and I need more time to experiment on different road types/conditions, but it was very satisfying.

Interestingly, the ride home was not as solid. Still ok, but different enough to notice and I didn't know why. After I got home and thought about it, most of the char-coal and drinks were gone by that point and (because I about threw out my back getting the griddle in/out of the front compartment) I'd opted to put the griddle in the truck bed. Needs more testing, but it really might be a tongue weight thing.

I guess I could store a couple of cinder blocks in the center of the front compartment just to load it down. Either that or make a rack for my generator above the propane tanks (at least that might be useful once in a while).
 

shadowhawk

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can I get a cheat sheet for all the acronyms?
 
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Mcgruff

Mcgruff

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can I get a cheat sheet for all the acronyms?

LOL - Laugh Out Loud :D

Looking over this thread I noticed:
WD - Weight Distribution
WDH - Weight Distribution Hitch
TW - Tongue Weight
TT - Travel Trailer (might see FW for 5th Wheel or GN for Goose Neck somewhere else)
MH - Motorhome
AR - **** Retentive


I used these for short:
FA - Front Axle
RA - Rear Axle
TA - Trailer Axle
CAT - Just the brand name of weight scales at many truck stops

I'm sure these are obvious:
PSI - Pounds per Square Inch
MPH - Miles Per Hour
lbs - Weight in Pounds
:bleh:
 

shadowhawk

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LOL - Laugh Out Loud :D

Looking over this thread I noticed:
WD - Weight Distribution
WDH - Weight Distribution Hitch
TW - Tongue Weight
TT - Travel Trailer (might see FW for 5th Wheel or GN for Goose Neck somewhere else)
MH - Motorhome
AR - **** Retentive


I used these for short:
FA - Front Axle
RA - Rear Axle
TA - Trailer Axle
CAT - Just the brand name of weight scales at many truck stops

I'm sure these are obvious:
PSI - Pounds per Square Inch
MPH - Miles Per Hour
lbs - Weight in Pounds
:bleh:


The AR threw me more than the rest. Thanks for the education
 

csuder99

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The fact that the ride got noticeably better with more tongue weight would still point to the setup being on the stiff side. The spring bar ratings aren't hard limits, and if your TW really is 1000 +/- 150 lbs that doesn't mean the 1000 lbs bars won't work.
There are many factors affecting how much force the WDH needs to apply. Tow vehicle front axle weight and wheelbase and probably most importantly the distance from the coupler to the trailer axle(s). Longer trailers have more leverage against the spring bars and need a stiffer setup.
 

VernDiesel

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Lol don’t ask me how I knew your TW was too light. Every time I get below 10 percent with a box nose TT/TH (toy hauler) and go faster say 70 plus it starts getting a lil swayish feeling. Especially if it’s windy or I encounter a strong semi bow wave. And this is no matter which trailer is behind me but it is worse with a box front than an aero front or Airstream trailer.

Beh I had to re write this as it was jumbled. This should read better.

Also when tweaking for max stability, past replacing full unloaded steer weight it’s generally better to add weight to the drive axle as long as unloaded steer weight is retained. If your steer axle exceeds the weight of your drive axle beyond replacing unloaded steer weight you are displacing your COG. Even though it may feel good in an emergency swerve around it will lose traction & spin out sooner.

CVW combined vehicle weight
CVWR rating
GVW gross vehicle weight
GVWR rating IE legal payload especially with respects to towing. The yellow sticker number is for estimating what you can throw in the bed with an unmodified truck when not towing and not having scale availability.
 
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