Weak brakes on 97 1500 4x2

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ouch1011

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Hello all,

I have a 96 1500 4x2 5.2 that I use almost exclusively for towing and hauling relatively light things (the heaviest it will probably ever see is a flat-bed car hauler with a sedan on it--maybe 5000lbs)

I've been underwhelmed with the brakes since I test drove this thing before purchasing 8 months ago. Aside from that, it is in great condition for its age and mileage.

The brakes when unloaded are OK. They stop the truck decently. When towing, even with trailer brakes, they feel very inadequate. So, I went out and did a little brake testing today with no load. The truck has rear ABS only. I cannot get the rear ABS to activate at all under any circumstances. The rear brakes won't come even close to locking. The fronts will only lock if I literally push with both feet and bottom out the pedal. Even then, they are reluctant. The tires on this truck are good...but not that good. Front brake pads and rotors are new, calipers were replaced by the PO. New drums and shoes (and hardware) in the back. Good quality stock replacement parts used. Brakes have been bled at least twice. After two solid stops from 60 (without any lock-up) with a few minutes rest in between, the brakes were faded to the point of no longer stopping safely. The fronts were very hot, the rear drums were warm but still where I could almost touch the drum. I know the rear brakes don't carry much of the load on an unloaded truck, but I can't even get them to try to lock while unloaded, which means they are doing next to nothing.

Are there any common problems with these trucks that may cause the rear brakes to have reduced effectiveness? The pedal feels good, doesn't sink or feel spongy. The brake hoses were also supposedly replaced by the PO, but I may do them again anyway.

Thanks
 

crazzywolfie

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have you made sure the rear brakes are properly adjusted? are you bleeding the brakes in the correct order? RR,LR,RF,LF. you pretty much bleed the farthest line and work your way to the shortest line last. you should be able to lock all 4 tires up with no issue if things are working properly even tho the front does most of the work.

the abs on older dodge's suck to the point it barely works and even then when it works it can be questionable. the only time i have felt it work was when i was stepping on the brakes on a slippery snow covered road.
 

dodge dude94

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Inspect all your pads and drums. Inspect for leaks from the wheel cylinders in the rear. Verify the rears are adjusted properly and that the fronts are floating.

It's also very possible that the brakes bad been replaced at one point and the pads/shoes installed aren't very sticky. Semi-metallic pads only, please. They dust, yes, but they will stop these beasts better.

Something else you can do is go ahead and bleed the entire system. You might have a bubble preventing the system from doing what it needs to.


You might look and see if the 2500 7500GVWR front calipers will fit your 2WD, I know they fit the 4x4s.
Something I will be seriously looking into when all my junk goes out again is a 2000 V10 master cylinder, 98 3500 wheel cylinders and 94-8 7500GVWR calipers. All bigger stuff that bolts right in.
 

dudeman2009

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There are a couple things here that need to be corrected.

Yes, you have rear wheel ABS, the only way to really test it is to fo find slick gravel or snow and ice. There are two safeguards (three if you count the combo valve as two valves in one) whose sole purpose is to prevent rear wheel lockup. Even then our ABS is almost impossible to feel in the pedal, unlike Chevy which sounds like a jackhammer in the pedal, ours operates silently with little to no feedback.

Rear ABS isn't our main concern right now unless the ABS light is on.

The problem seems to be lack of braking power when loaded and quick brake fade.

Firstly, the brakes in the rear should not lockup ever under panic braking, that is slamming on the brakes hard and fast, that includes standing on the pedal. They should only lockup after a second or two IF the ABS isn't working or you are on very slippery roads. Immediate lockup would suggest linings are in constant contact with the drum or the proportioning valve is malfunctioning. The front brakes should lockup easier but shouldn't be easy to lockup except on old hard tires, there is a lot of weight on those front tires when slamming on the brakes. I have tires that are about a year old with heavy duty front pads about the same age as the tires, I have to stand on the pedal to lock up the front when on dry pavement.

Since you have bled the system multiple times and braking is normal when cold and unloaded, we can guess that overall the brake system is working ok, minus the proportioning valve if the 96s had them.

Organic or crappy semi-metallic pads will stop ok when cool, but they lack stopping power and they will fade very quickly on heavy trucks. Ceramic pads need to warm up slightly to achieve max braking power but will fade faster than heavy duty semi-metallic pads. On heavy trucks I only recommend quality semi-metallic pads that are specified as heavy duty or rated for towing. Do not get race or performance pads as they will require heating before full braking power is achieved.

What type of pads did you put on the front and what type of shoes did you put on the rear? Did you also replace the rear adjusters or service them to prevent seizing? When you were bleeding the brakes did the bleeder screws leak at the same speed as the fronts, or did they leak slowly?

The type of brake fade you are describing is NOT normal, I could panic stop from 60 multiple times on my old pads and still have good braking. I routinely pulled 5Klb trailers on my old pads without issue. Until recently when I dumped the old engine and a ton of other scrap off at the junkyard my truck weighed about 7klbs (I had a lot of scrap in the back since January, don't ask why, I don't know) and never had an issue stopping other than feeling like I was stopping two trucks at once.

First step is to find out what type of pads and shoes you put on and from what vendor (or brand of the pads is fine). Also, after you shut off the truck, how many activations of the brake pedal do you have before the pedal gets hard?
 
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ouch1011

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Thanks for the suggestions so far.

I've adjusted the rear brakes several times. They are currently at an adjustment that I am pretty happy with. E-brake engagement is good, the brake pedal has some free play but not too much (as to indicate that the rear wheel cylinders are having to travel too far before the shoes contact) The front brakes are a good brand that I've used several times before on multiple cars with good results. I can't remember the pad compound that I used on the front but I'll try to look it up tomorrow. It wasn't a "heavy duty" compound or anything specific for towing because I figured that a stock replacement pad would be fine for stopping a stock truck that is operated within the original design specifications. I'll see if I can find out exactly what pads I used tomorrow (I got them at work.) I believe the rear shoes are Duralast from Autozone, which I remember because the shoes that I had purchased before that were defective and had a very slight issue with how the shoes arched in the drum, which lead them to grab and even self-apply (that was a fun one to diagnose). Not my favorite choice for brakes, but should be good enough for what I need. They just don't seem to be getting the input they need in order to be effective. The rear hardware is all new. No signs of leakage from any of the wheel cylinders.

I understand that the ABS will only activate if the tires start to lock. I'm very familiar with how ABS works. With an ancient system like this, the reaction time is so slow that even if you can't feel the pounding in the pedal, you'll be able to hear it lock and unlock the rear tires. This isn't happening. At all. I even tried it on wet pavement, on which I should be able to easily lock the rear tires. It doesn't happen. I might be able to lock them on gravel, but that's not the point. If the rear brakes aren't able to lock on an unloaded truck (i.e. no weight on the rear tires) they won't be effective under any circumstances. As far as I am aware, there is no weight-bias proportioning valve on these trucks as you might find on an import truck, so the brake system doesn't know the difference between an unloaded truck vs a fully loaded one. Really, unloaded, I'd expect the rear tires to be trying to lock and the rear ABS kicking in well before the fronts start to lock.

I know the brake fade isn't normal, and to be fair, I had done some harder than average braking prior to that event where 2 hard stops turned the brakes to mush. But, the vast difference in the brake temperatures tells me that the rear brakes aren't pulling their weight.

I'm not sure what is interchangeable between the 2500/3500 and the 1500. I know 4WD parts probably aren't going to work on a 2WD because its a straight axle vs the independent front. Maybe 2WD 2500 parts would work? Either way, I want to determine what the problem is rather than trying to mask it with upgrades, because the stock braking system really should be able to do much better than this. My old 95 Dakota stopped much better than this truck, even with a lot of weight in the back of it.
 

dodge dude94

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Just looked it up, calipers will swap between 2WD and 4WD. Same PNs. So that's no biggie.

It almost seems like the MC isn't putting enough pressure to the system to be honest, and I have no idea how one would verify.



I know in my circumstance, I had old pads up front that weren't very sticky when new and simply got harder over a period of years even tho they had decent meat yet. Running semi-metallic private label Wagners now and they're much better.
 

dudeman2009

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Even though the OE spec on brakes is for a truck rated to haul more than you are hauling should be enough, it often isn't, OE pads on a 1500 are meant for relatively quiet and long lasting operation, not raw stopping power.

Autozone has some good stuff, I only use their gold pads though. Rear shoes are pretty limited for pad type when compared to the fronts.

I wasn't trying to imply you don't know how ABS works or anything like that, I just wanted to make sure all the bases were covered. Nothing causes me more irritation than over thinking a relatively simple problem and wasting time and energy.

Another avenue to check, when the brakes are having issues, are you hearing any hissing near the brake booster that might indicate a vacuum leak?
 

crazzywolfie

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you can get an adjustable proportioning valve if you think they rear brakes are not working as hard as they should be and adjust it to what you want. i think i have heard of stock ones occasionally acting up when you replace hydraulic parts.

i would really not put much faith in the stock abs. i nearly t-boned a car that ran a red light and know my tires were locked up but abs did not kick in. the RWAL setup is not really reliable.
 

dudeman2009

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I don't think the 96-97 trucks had a proportioning valve, mine does and its an 01. I thought they started adding them in 96.

If you dont have the proportioning valve then you should have excellent flow from the rears when bleeding them.

If you don't have the prop. valve then we can rule that out as the cause. When you hit the brakes, does the brake light come on if you just hold the pedal to the floor for a minute or two?

If the light doesn't come on, i'd start to suspect the master cylinder as DD94 has pointed to. Thats really the last remaining culprit if you can rule out a leaking brake booster.

(shut the truck off and wait about 10 minutes, you should still have at least one full assisted application of the brakes)

If that is the last suspect, i'd unscrew the rear brake line and inspect the output of the master cylinder for debris. If thats clear then i'd remove the lines from the RWAL/Combination valve. I'm not sure if that is the proportioning valve or if its just for the rear ABS, but i'd check that too, if its clogged it may cause this issue.

On a side note, did you bleed the ABS system? Or just bleed them normally without doing the ABD bleeding?

As far as locking up the rears, maybe the 00-01s had a better response time, but even in the winter on slippery snow where quarter throttle will do doughnuts and front wheel lockup was as simple as dropping an Abe Lincoln on the brake pedal my rears never lock up and I cannot feel any feedback from the ABS. I know my rears work since stopping a 3500lb trailer without trailer brakes wasn't too bad. And those drums got HOT when I used to tow. The only way I have been able to lock the rears is to throw it in 2nd or 1st and slam the brakes, then those things scream for mercy on the driest of pavement.

I have driven Chevys where you lock the rears all the damn time when unloaded, I guarantee thats not what happened from the factory. A month ago I was test driving a 97 chevy after having put two front calipers on it and it was easy to lock the rears. Anything over half pedal and the rear screamed. Thats not normal, its a bit too far across the median from what your problem is, but there must be a balance somewhere.
 

crazzywolfie

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I don't think the 96-97 trucks had a proportioning valve, mine does and its an 01. I thought they started adding them in 96.
what you talkin about Willis? lol seriously tho they have had proportioning valves on these things for a long time. even my 81 has a proportion valve. they have used them in vehicles for a long time. you cam even buy aftermarket ones so that you can adjust the brake balance between front and rear. if you google 96 dodge ram 1500 proportioning valve you will see lots of other people having issue with the rear brakes not working as good as they should possibly caused by the proportioning valve

as far as abs goes i think the 98 and newer trucks saw changes to the abs system. i can't say if they got better or not but i am guessing any change would be better than what they were using.
 

dudeman2009

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what you talkin about Willis? lol seriously tho they have had proportioning valves on these things for a long time. even my 81 has a proportion valve. they have used them in vehicles for a long time. you cam even buy aftermarket ones so that you can adjust the brake balance between front and rear. if you google 96 dodge ram 1500 proportioning valve you will see lots of other people having issue with the rear brakes not working as good as they should possibly caused by the proportioning valve

as far as abs goes i think the 98 and newer trucks saw changes to the abs system. i can't say if they got better or not but i am guessing any change would be better than what they were using.

I mistyped, I'm not sure how I meant to type that. But I meant to say that I thought they did have them. I went on in the next sentence to contradict my previous statement by saying I thought they had added them (in the combination valve vs on the rear axle: Omitted) in 96.
 
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ouch1011

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Quick update on this.

I replaced the master cylinder and bled the system. Pedal feel is improved but overall braking seems the same. Still fades too quickly and doesn't stop that well. I disabled the rear abs just to make sure it wasn't super stealthy. Nope, they don't even attempt to lock. There is a proportionimg valve mounted to the master cylinder with the brake light switch in it. I made sure the isolation portion of that was at least working, and it is. My truck does not have the height sensing proportioning valve on the rear axle, which is why I feel the rears should be a lot easier to lock on an unloaded truck with no weight in the back.

I think I'm just going to give in and upgrade. I've seen the info for the 1 ton Chevy wheel cylinders. I'm assuming this is 4x2 and single rear wheel? Any particular year range? Also, I've seen mention of upgrading the front calipers with 2500ld calipers. Any particular year on these?
 

dodge dude94

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94-98 2500 7500GVWR calipers.
Mid-90s GM 1-ton wheel cylinders.

Be warned, they will function better with a larger master cylinder, such as a 2001 2500 V10 MC. I will also mention that some have reported the GM cylinders as being rather touchy.
 
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ouch1011

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Thank you very much for the info.

If not for the fact that this truck is not a daily driver and is only really driven when loaded, I probably wouldn't bother. It stops OK when unloaded, but I don't drive it without some weight in the back. It may be touchy when unloaded after doing this, but since its only really driven with a load, I'd just be happy to have brakes that stop the truck acceptably. I don't think it will be too touchy when its got a bunch of extra weight in the back. I may just start with the larger calipers and wheel cylinders before doing the master cylinder and see if that keeps it from being overly twitchy. but we'll see. Either way, its good to have options.
 
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ouch1011

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A quick update on this:

Friday night, I installed the 1ton wheel cylinders without doing anything else. This, combined with the fact that it had just rained for the first time in a while, plus the fact that the abs was still disabled made for an almost dangerous combination. Far too much rear brake bias, the rear brakes would lock during moderate stopping. Threshold braking under these conditions made for significantly longer stopping distances. Might be manageable with the rear abs or with a loaded truck, but not good as is. That being said, I was happy to see that I could at least lock the rear tires now, since I couldn't do that at all with the previous setup. Now, time to upgrade the front.
Last night I put on the 2500LD front calipers and a set of Hawk SD brake pads. I went with basically the most aggressive street pad I could find. Ive used Hawk pads in several other vehicles in the past and have really enjoyed them, they are always a solid upgrade. I was going to replace the master cylinder with the 01 2500 V10 master cylinder as previously mentioned, and although it seemed like it would physically fit, the brake line fitting sizes were different. They were smaller ironically, so I couldn't use that master cylinder. I stuck with the brand new stock master cylinder I had previously installed. Went through the break-in procedure then went out to test the results.

First impression is that I wish I could have upgraded the master cylinder. The difference in volume with the larger calipers and wheel cylinders is immediately noticeable. A lot of pedal travel is wasted just trying to move enough volume to get the various pistons in contact with the pads/shoes. That being said, the improvement in brake performance even with the little master cylinder is pretty impressive. The truck will now, almost literally, stand on its nose. In fact, it dives so much now that it almost becomes unstable under hard braking. It doesn't pull or anything, but because the dive screws with the alignment angles so much on this antiquated suspension setup, it just doesn't like to stay in a straight line. But, it stops substantially shorter than it did before. Definitely a good upgrade. I won't be afraid to load the truck with some weight now.

I'd still like to upgrade the master cylinder. I feel like there is more performance to be had, especially on a loaded truck. The lock up point is basically at the bottom the pedal travel, although it takes much less pedal pressure to do it. Being able to move more volume would help. Is there a master cylinder that will work without having to change fittings?
 

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Why not just put new correct size fitting on the brake lines or go to the hardware store and get some adapters to make them fit?105608-818bb41b363ec5ad21d5de7229c0a197.jpg

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