K&N drop in air filter and my MPG's

[RammerHarder]

Did i miss the post where people actually get better mpg using K&N drop in vs OEM...?

 

[RammerHarder]

Or some people by them for there lifetime use.

I think its overrated myself, but whatever, if people really feel the need, have at it, it ain`t my money they`re spending.

 

[Jrod]

That test is doubtful. K&N is designed so that it doesn't let dirt particles greater than 5 microns into the intake. Particles under 5 microns don't reduce engine compression. The situation among paper filters is different. By moving a LOT of air under HIGH speed they tend to let some > 5 micron particles in, not many but they do. Crucial by cotton filters like K&N is the re-oiling procedure - less is bad, too much oil and your filter needs to sit a couple of days to drain excess oil. UOA should tell the story but with partial truth unless they state the size of dust/silicon particles.

In the end of the day most engines die due to something else than loss of compression. We all know HEMI lifters ... LOL

My 2 bobs worth ...

Agree 100%

Plus, thousands of people with positive reviews over decades carries more weight with me than a few claims trying to disprove.

 

[MK96]

There is a lot of gossip out there. But this might help in general:
OIL – HOW CLEAN DOES IT HAVE TO BE?
by: Mike Sondalini in collaboration with Don Irvine of Donamar Filters. Data supplied by Donamar Filters
Clean, dry oil can extend equipment life between failure up to 8 - 10 times the normal operating life. Timken, the bearing manufacturer, reports that reducing water levels from 100 ppm (parts per million) to 25 ppm increases bearing life 2 times. British hydraulics research indicate that if solids contamination with particles larger than 5 micron (0.005 mm or 0.0002”) is reduced from the range of 5,000 – 10,000 particles per milliliter of oil to 160 – 320 particles, the machine life is increased 5 times.
If you want extremely low wear rates and long equipment life the evidence indicates that oil needs to be filtered down to sub 5 micron size and preferably down to one micron size. Care needs to be taken that the filter does also not remove any solid additives, such as graphite, in the oil. Additives dissolved in the oil will not be removed unless the additive is attached to a solid particle.
SAE Technical Paper 942032: “It’s a commonly known fact that lubrication oil does not wear out mechanically, and if kept clean will maintain its lubrication qualities intact almost indefinitely”
Contaminants between 2 and 20 microns in size can be particularly damaging since they can disrupt hydrodynamic lubrication by entering wear surface.”
One such study by General Motors concluded that, "controlling particles in the 3 micron to 10 micron range had the greatest impact on wear rates and that engine wear rates correlated directly to the dust concentration levels in the sump."
More information about the book "How to Select a Motor Oil and Filter for Your Car or Truck"

My friend's experience with K&N in an Australian Nissan Patrol is like this:

 

[Jrod]

There is a lot of gossip out there. But this might help in general:
OIL – HOW CLEAN DOES IT HAVE TO BE?
by: Mike Sondalini in collaboration with Don Irvine of Donamar Filters. Data supplied by Donamar Filters
Clean, dry oil can extend equipment life between failure up to 8 - 10 times the normal operating life. Timken, the bearing manufacturer, reports that reducing water levels from 100 ppm (parts per million) to 25 ppm increases bearing life 2 times. British hydraulics research indicate that if solids contamination with particles larger than 5 micron (0.005 mm or 0.0002”) is reduced from the range of 5,000 – 10,000 particles per milliliter of oil to 160 – 320 particles, the machine life is increased 5 times.
If you want extremely low wear rates and long equipment life the evidence indicates that oil needs to be filtered down to sub 5 micron size and preferably down to one micron size. Care needs to be taken that the filter does also not remove any solid additives, such as graphite, in the oil. Additives dissolved in the oil will not be removed unless the additive is attached to a solid particle.
SAE Technical Paper 942032: “It’s a commonly known fact that lubrication oil does not wear out mechanically, and if kept clean will maintain its lubrication qualities intact almost indefinitely”
Contaminants between 2 and 20 microns in size can be particularly damaging since they can disrupt hydrodynamic lubrication by entering wear surface.”
One such study by General Motors concluded that, "controlling particles in the 3 micron to 10 micron range had the greatest impact on wear rates and that engine wear rates correlated directly to the dust concentration levels in the sump."
More information about the book "How to Select a Motor Oil and Filter for Your Car or Truck"

My friend's experience with K&N in an Australian Nissan Patrol is like this:

View attachment 155136

Wow! The fact I'll never see dirt anywhere near this level in my area solidifies my confidence even more. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy the extra MPG's along with it!

 

[Skyjockey]

????
If this is all it takes to gain 4mpg why wouldn't the factory do this from the start? They come up with more gimmicks to improve mileage yet this seems so simple????

 

[MK96]

Maybe they could not charge you extra for a new filter everytime.

 

[Jrod]

????
If this is all it takes to gain 4mpg why wouldn't the factory do this from the start? They come up with more gimmicks to improve mileage yet this seems so simple????

Maybe to make you buy their RAM Mopar cold air intake for $400?? Mopar online parts claims you’ll gain 1-2 MPG’s depending on driving style.

https://moparonlineparts.com/1500-cold-intake-p-4171.html

 

[RammerHarder]

LOL

 

[mohemipar]

I’ve always thought adding parts to try and get more response and then wanting better MPG is kind of counterproductive anyway. Only time I’ve ever seen better MPG after making any changes to the air induction of a V8 on a stock tune was with cruise control set on a longer trip.

My Ram with S&B air intake basically stayed the same, maybe a slight improvement when cruising empty. But the first couple weeks I had it on the MPG plummeted because I’d constantly stomp the pedal to hear the air being gulped down.

392 Charger has a OEM Hellcat air inlet and filter and 87mm venturi ported OEM throttle body. The car will do 25+ MPG all day long on the highway with cruise on. Since doing the mods I have seen a max of 3 MPG better on the highway. But around town I get… definitely under the advertised 14 lol. I’ll take the blame there.

 

[Jrod]

I’ve always thought adding parts to try and get more response and then wanting better MPG is kind of counterproductive anyway. Only time I’ve ever seen better MPG after making any changes to the air induction of a V8 on a stock tune was with cruise control set on a longer trip.

My Ram with S&B air intake basically stayed the same, maybe a slight improvement when cruising empty. But the first couple weeks I had it on the MPG plummeted because I’d constantly stomp the pedal to hear the air being gulped down.

392 Charger has a OEM Hellcat air inlet and filter and 87mm venturi ported OEM throttle body. The car will do 25+ MPG all day long on the highway with cruise on. Since doing the mods I have seen a max of 3 MPG better on the highway. But around town I get… definitely under the advertised 14 lol. I’ll take the blame there.

I hear ya, the increase in MPG's is most noted when I set cruise control and keep my foot off the pedal. I'd expect the Hellcat purs nicely with cruise control at 25MPG too. I get the same result with my R/T plus shaker 6 speed, no mods.

 

[TigreST]

I'm an old fart so must be the fly in the ointment on these bolt on up-grades to intake and exhaust performance. I did the factory Mopar CAI, TTI long tube header, duel Flow Master cats, big pipe Cat Back MBRP system and saw no appreciable diff in fuel mileage at all on my 2003 5.7 SLT quad cab 2WD machine. That is the reason (fuel mileage) I did the mods. Oh yeah there was that "healthy" exhaust note when you stuck yer foot in it, but sad to say, even that got tiresome. The secondary sub harmonic drone in the cab when at highway speeds (right in the cruise sweet spot..65 to 75mph) was both annoying and oppressive when on long trips. I was in fact embarrassed taking anybody out on the highway in the truck. Which was sad because the ride in the Dodge on the highway is just wonderful, as you all know. Loved the exhaust rumble around town at lower speeds though.

Now having said that: I loved the idea of having stainless steel pipe work from front to back just for longevity sake, install once and done. The MBRP system was a work of art, The TTI headers and cats fit up beautifully, although the headers tube internal surfaces were coated in a greasy gritty substance right out of the box that I had to remove via a solvent bath. In the end I kept the CAI and piping but went back to a Walker Muffers Inc. factory replacement muffler to take the drone away when on the highway at cruise speeds. Best thing ever. Mileage again, did not change that I noticed.

My simple theory on this is ,..the motor will inhale only a given amount of air equal to the swept volume of the total displacement...no more no less. Gains that most producers advertised are.....hopeful numbers generated on some other planet..ie: not real world. But hey...that's just my opinion (no pun intended) your mileage will vary!

O.k. flame suit on. Bring it! Be forewarned,. I will not argue about this...to old to waste my time to do that these days. I fully understand the "young mans need to have bigger, badder,longer, wider, more chrome, less chrome, lower stance, higher stance, ….******, (ha ha) as I was young once too don't forget. But with time and age comes understanding and just maybe a modicum of common sense. Gotta admit...most of this type of stuff is nice to look at for sure. I just don't think we see the advertised gains in the real world...?...did I say that already?..I forget.. (that's an age thing too!).


T.

 

[Jrod]

I'm an old fart so must be the fly in the ointment on these bolt on up-grades to intake and exhaust performance. I did the factory Mopar CAI, TTI long tube header, duel Flow Master cats, big pipe Cat Back MBRP system and saw no appreciable diff in fuel mileage at all on my 2003 5.7 SLT quad cab 2WD machine. That is the reason (fuel mileage) I did the mods. Oh yeah there was that "healthy" exhaust note when you stuck yer foot in it, but sad to say, even that got tiresome. The secondary sub harmonic drone in the cab when at highway speeds (right in the cruise sweet spot..65 to 75mph) was both annoying and oppressive when on long trips. I was in fact embarrassed taking anybody out on the highway in the truck. Which was sad because the ride in the Dodge on the highway is just wonderful, as you all know. Loved the exhaust rumble around town at lower speeds though.

Now having said that: I loved the idea of having stainless steel pipe work from front to back just for longevity sake, install once and done. The MBRP system was a work of art, The TTI headers and cats fit up beautifully, although the headers tube internal surfaces were coated in a greasy gritty substance right out of the box that I had to remove via a solvent bath. In the end I kept the CAI and piping but went back to a Walker Muffers Inc. factory replacement muffler to take the drone away when on the highway at cruise speeds. Best thing ever. Mileage again, did not change that I noticed.

My simple theory on this is ,..the motor will inhale only a given amount of air equal to the swept volume of the total displacement...no more no less. Gains that most producers advertised are.....hopeful numbers generated on some other plant..ie: not real world. But hey...that's just my opinion (no pun intended) your mileage will vary!

O.k. flame suit on. Bring it! Be forewarned,. I will not argue about this...to old to waste my time to do that these days. I fully understand the "young mans need to have bigger, badder,longer, wider, more chrome, less chrome, lower stance, higher stance, ….******, (ha ha) as I was young once too don't forget. But with time and age comes understanding and just maybe a modicum of common sense. Gotta admit...most of this type of stuff is nice to look at for sure. I just don't think we see the advertised gains in the real world...?...did I say that already?..I forget.. (that's an age thing too!).


T.

No argument here. Driving habits vary by individual, therefore outcomes will be different and I’ll just leave it at that.

As far as droning goes and passengers, I’m kind of in the same boat. I love the exhaust, even at cruising speed it’s fairly nimble, it’s only when overtaking other vehicles, regaining speed, or climbing up to speed that I feel a little embarrassed with passengers lol. I still love it when I’m alone. The wife likes it too so I have that going for me. I’ve considersd reinstalling my old exhaust, but I always change my mind lol.

 

[Bigskyroadglide]

My simple theory on this is ,..the motor will inhale only a given amount of air equal to the swept volume of the total displacement...no more no less. Gains that most producers advertised are.....????

I just don't think we see the advertised gains in the real world...?..


T.

100% agree. I have a drop in K&N filter. mileage the same before and after installing. My only blessing, this is 3rd ram 1500 it's been installed in as I picked it up used and have only invested in cleaning materials and time.

 

[500rider86]

Agh the K&N vs paper battle. There’s plenty of studies showing the k&n doesn’t filter as much. And a lot of it may be because most people don’t oil/maintain them right. Some people over oil it as well and mess up the Maf. My ram had a k&n in it when I bought it used and there was a lot of dust in the air tube to the throttle body. I cleaned it out and put a paper AC Delco filter in it and have seen no dust since replacement 20k miles ago.

Just my personal expierence. Other people have different experiences.

 

[MK96]

IMHO it is not a battle. You have to make your own opinion. If you try it and it works for you, there is nothing to loose.

 

[TigreST]

Agh the K&N vs paper battle. There’s plenty of studies showing the k&n doesn’t filter as much. And a lot of it may be because most people don’t oil/maintain them right. Some people over oil it as well and mess up the Maf.

Slightly off topic (slightly?): I use to use K&N products (single pod filters) on motorcycles..mainly in-line four cylinder Hondas that were running CV (constant velocity) carbs (yeah..i'm old school with carbs). Getting the oiling correct was critical or the carburation between the four separated carbs would be upset for the first maybe 100 miles of riding or so, until the oil layer became more evenly dispersed on the filters. I use to hate the lack luster performance during this period. In the end the filters went in the parts bin and I installed velocity stacks and screens. The screens help keep out big stuff like bugs and rock etc.

I took the bike (1982 CB-750F Super Sport) in for a motor refresh the winter of 1990. Rode it to the shop, they pulled the motor, I rolled the chassis home until the spring when the reverse would happen. The bike mechanic saw the velocity stacks and said "Oh boy, theres gonna be big trouble in little China tonight."

I asked him "What do you mean?"

He said, "How long you been running them stacks?"

I said "About 6 years or more."

He said, "I expect the cylinder walls are gonna be a bit of a mess from scoring running without a filtering medium of some sort for that length of time."

I got a call a few days later, "You might like to come in a look at this motor," he says.

So I do. He shows me the cylinder block and said, "I'm totally amazed,..there's not a mark on the cylinder walls to speak of. A simple hone and re-ring and it will be good to go."


I do not advocate running without a filter. I do understand the idea that a K&N is clean-able ergo re-useable, which make them cost effective. But they do not always work the best in certain applications, granted more so related to motorcycle use at least in my experience. I've just given up on them is all.
My 1998 CBR-1100 Super Blackbird goes through a rather drastic carburation upset when a K&N is used, and it does not fit the airbox as nicely as the OEM Honda airfilter...so once again K7N are out.

T.

 

[Guy lIPSKY]

I am a old guy and still have a hard time keeping my foot out of it just love that get up and go when you want it , i also gas gas buddy so i get 20 cents off per gallon

 

[Matts175]

My old 2003 Ram is sitting in my back yard with 186,000 miles on a 4.7L. I've had a K&N drop in since day one. It still runs like a watch. Actually, I drove it today because I had to move it. If they were that bad... wouldn't it have blown up by now? I'm probably going to swap the filter into my new to me 2015 Hemi, if this damn weather would let up.

 

[turkeybird56]

I run an AFE AFM Drop in air filter in the stock box on MY 19. I did it for the slight (allegedly) gain in air flow for the motor. I have noticed a slight improvement in performance. But as U all know, no seat in the pants explosion. I could go and do a whole CAI< etc, but since my ride sits a lot in front of house, not needed.

I had an 02 F150 with the 5.4 Triton Motor that I did the wet K & N system, and it was like night and day. Improved the heck out of that Triton Motor, but is U ever drove a 5.4L Ford, it liked gas stations even more than the Hemi does.

Was considering a moderate exhaust change putting possibly a flow master 44 on, but no hurry on that. Guess my next mission is a cover for the Bed. Since I have the Bighorn, have no bed lighting and I would have to improvise something there, LOL.

NE way, opinions on Oiled VS Dry filters abound. I personally think that on the New Hemi's, the way to go would be More Air CFM Dry filters, but that is just: IMHO....

TIGRE: I stay stock on my Honda Goldwing Trike. It is such a Monster PITA to pull all the stuff just to put in an air filter, just saying. Heck, it takes me an hour just to pull chit and do plugs. But that is wat U get when U got a Wing, and a TRIKE kit on it,LOL....