'05 3.7L Overheated & Seized - What to do next?

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MayerMR

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Evening fellas,

Firstly, let me start out by stating that I just purchased this truck and I am not the person who decided to abuse the engine to the point of seizing it up. With that said, I just picked up this '05 Ram shortbed 2WD with the 3.7L today knowing that, more than likely, the engine is a goner, but I wanted a winter project and true-be-told, it's a (nearly) mirror image of the truck I had in college (though it had the 4.7L) and I've always regretted selling it. Sadly, this one is not in nearly as good of shape, but I'll fix the cosmetic issues after I sort out the engine situation.

So getting to the reason of my post - I'm looking for some advice from those more knowledgeable on this generation of Rams than I am. I've been reading these forums and elsewhere on the internet for the past several days and I've come up with a few different courses of action that I would appreciate some feedback on.

Option 1: Do a big of a post-mortem on the current 3.7L engine. All I have is the word of the seller that the engine is seized and that it did so because it overheated. That said, I did pick it up at mechanic's shop where they had stated that they wanted it out of their lot asap, so that does lend credence to the seller's claims.

So what I'm thinking that I need to do it a little bit of investigation of my own; inspect the block for any signs of cracks/catastrophic issues, pull the plugs and look in at the pistons, look at the oil to see if there is water incursion, etc etc. Basically, see if I can free it up, and if I can, try to get it start and listen for the "bad noises" and make a decision from there.

Option 2: Say forget it with this engine as it's likely that any engine that has gotten hot enough to physically seize (assuming it didn't seize due to mechanical failure) is likely to have a number of issues from warped heads, destroyed seals or bearings, etc. So basically, look for a decent, used 3.7L from a salvage yard and do a 1 for 1 swap.

Option 3: Pull this engine and (assuming nothing mechanically failed and destroyed it) rebuild this engine with a rebuild kit after getting the block and heads done at City Motor Supply (local here in Dallas, TX) OR just buy a rebuilt long-block from City Motor Supply (still trying to get pricing on that from them, however)

Option 4: Same as Option 2, but replace the engine with a 4.7L V-8. From my reading, I know that I'd need the ECM out of a 4.7L truck as well as the engine harness. What I'm still not clear on though is; do I also need the engine mounts from the 4.7L? What about the fan shroud or airbox? Anything else needed besides just the ECM and the engine harness? Those are about the only things I've seen noted on each thread, but I have to think there is more to it than just those two items. The two engines can both bolt right up to the current transmission in the truck, correct?

Truthfully, I'm really leaning towards Option 2 or 4, but my only real hesitation is that I hate the idea of buying a used engine with a completely unknown history and unknown problems. I will grant that if I get one of these engines used that I can replace the timing chains, lifters, etc. before I drop it in the truck, but I still have reservations. I'm hoping some of you with more experience doing this can give me some advice and help alleviate some of my fears with this route.

Anyway, I apologize for the long post, but greatly appreciate any advice that you can offer and look forward to tackling this project, regardless of what route I end up going.

S/F,

-Matt
 
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MayerMR

MayerMR

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Well, I've got an update from City Motor Supply; Remanned Long block for the 3.7L is $2,250 and $2,360 for the remanned 4.7L.
 

Fishstickz

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I'd say definitely go for the 4.7 IF its the RFE behind that 3.7. I'm not sure when they switched, but sometime between 2005 and 2006 they started putting the 42RLE behind the 3.7. The RLE probably wouldn't like handling V8 power all that well.

I doubt the motor mounts are different but don't take my word for it cuz I really dont know. Pretty sure you can reuse the 3.7 fan shroud, you may have to take off a little plastic extension on it though (couple of screws I think), and I believe the airboxes are the same along with the throttle body, pretty sure the 4.7 had the same size throttle body as the 3.7 until 2008, but don't quote me.

Overall the 3.7 and 4.7 are pretty similar so there's a good amount of components that are interchangeable. But I'm sure there will be differences as well. The biggest thing is to make sure you have the RFE and not the RLE
 
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MayerMR

MayerMR

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Fishstickz,

Thanks very much for your reply and advice. Do you know how I can check which transmission I have? Is that something I can check by looking up the VIN or do I need to crawl under and look for the code? If so, where would one look for the code?

Thanks again!

-Matt
 

Quyonmob

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Anything but the 3.7. I have nothing good to say about that motor.
 

LoneWolf3574

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Fishstickz,

Thanks very much for your reply and advice. Do you know how I can check which transmission I have? Is that something I can check by looking up the VIN or do I need to crawl under and look for the code? If so, where would one look for the code?

Thanks again!

-Matt
I'd suggest locating the build sheet or using a VIN decoder. The build sheet for my truck literally says "All 5-Speed Automatic Transmissions" and about 2 pages later "5-Spd Automatic 545RFE Transmission".

As far as locating the build sheet goes, I just tried grabbing the link for Mopar/FCA. They used to have a self-serve app on their site where you plug your VIN in, but it looks like they shut it down sometime in the last year or so.

Your best bet, IMO, is a VIN decoder.
 
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MayerMR

MayerMR

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I'd say definitely go for the 4.7 IF its the RFE behind that 3.7. I'm not sure when they switched, but sometime between 2005 and 2006 they started putting the 42RLE behind the 3.7. The RLE probably wouldn't like handling V8 power all that well.

The biggest thing is to make sure you have the RFE and not the RLE


HemiLonestar - you are the freakin' man. Thanks so much for posting that link. I was able to pull the build sheet and confirm that it has the 45RFE(DG4) transmission, not the (evidently unliked) RLE.

per the build sheet: "3.7L Eng(EKG)/4Spd A/T 45RFE(DG4)"

Awesome, now I just need to locate the right engine, ecu, and harness...annnnnnd probably some other stuff that I'm not aware of just yet.
 
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MayerMR

MayerMR

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Guess I had an expired link ;)

Ah shucks, my apologies. For some reason I thought the HemiLonestar had posted the comment (your comment) before posting the link; no offense intended :)

PS, how do you go about getting the "Military" banner added under your avatar? I'm former USMC myself.
 

Fishstickz

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HemiLonestar - you are the freakin' man. Thanks so much for posting that link. I was able to pull the build sheet and confirm that it has the 45RFE(DG4) transmission, not the (evidently unliked) RLE.

per the build sheet: "3.7L Eng(EKG)/4Spd A/T 45RFE(DG4)"

Awesome, now I just need to locate the right engine, ecu, and harness...annnnnnd probably some other stuff that I'm not aware of just yet.
Lol the RLE isn't a bad transmission by any means, I've drove lots of vehicles and my RLE is still one of the smoothest in terms of shifting. I don't think the 3.7 or the RLE ever belonged in a truck though lol

Just curious, why not go for a Hemi? There was a guy who posted a thread of swapping his '03 3.7 to a Hemi, so it can technically be done. It'd be more expensive and time consuming, but the Hemi has A LOT more going for it than the 3.7s and 4.7s.
 

LoneWolf3574

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Ah shucks, my apologies. For some reason I thought the HemiLonestar had posted the comment (your comment) before posting the link; no offense intended :)

PS, how do you go about getting the "Military" banner added under your avatar? I'm former USMC myself.
Think nothing of it brother, my younger brother is a retired crayon eater as well he just owns a Fnord ;P. Getting a "Military" banner is as easy as posting to the following forum and add some of your particulars (ie Branch, Job, Years, etc) because we vets like to know something about our brothers and sisters. :)

https://www.ramforum.com/threads/military-roll-call.121627/page-77

EDIT - Doh, forgot the link and can't spell worth squat today.
 
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MayerMR

MayerMR

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Lol the RLE isn't a bad transmission by any means, I've drove lots of vehicles and my RLE is still one of the smoothest in terms of shifting. I don't think the 3.7 or the RLE ever belonged in a truck though lol

Just curious, why not go for a Hemi? There was a guy who posted a thread of swapping his '03 3.7 to a Hemi, so it can technically be done. It'd be more expensive and time consuming, but the Hemi has A LOT more going for it than the 3.7s and 4.7s.

Well, to be perfectly frank, because I don't want to go to all the trouble and cost as this is just a winter project truck for fun that I will more than likely end up selling after I get it fixed and running again. The only reason I'm entertaining doing anything other than exchanging the 3.7 or rebuilding the 3.7 is because the cost difference is so minimal. And if I'm being honest, some of it is the sentimentality that it is how the truck I had in high school and college was configured.

So, also, kind of good news...though you all may call me crazy...I have found, about two hours away from me, a guy selling a 4.7L w/engine harness and ECU for $500. It's also got brand new heads (still shiny & fresh looking), new water pump, and some other new bits and bobs. That's the good news. The bad news is that he took it out and replaced it with a 5.7L Hemi (he said he had to buy a wrecked parts truck and change all kinds of things over) because after he had the oil changed it "gave out" about a week later. He said it will turn over, but it "didn't sound too happy". I had planned to tear into whatever engine I ended up getting anyway, so I'm thinking that for $500, this one might be worth the risk. I'll likely be doing a rebuild anyway, so assuming it's not a catastrophic mechanical failure...I might be money ahead...though I could also be money disastrously behind too. I dunno, you all think I'm a fool for pursuing this one?

4-7-4.jpg

4-7-2.jpg

4-7-3.jpg

4-7-1.jpg
 
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MayerMR

MayerMR

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Think nothing of it brother, my younger brother is a retired crayon eater as well he just owns a Fnord ;P. Getting a "Military" banner is as easy as posting to the following forum and add some of your particulars (ie Branch, Job, Years, etc) because we vets like to know something about our brothers and sisters. :)

https://www.ramforum.com/threads/military-roll-call.121627/page-77

EDIT - Doh, forgot the link and can't spell worth squat today.

A Ford, huh? Well, hell, I guess it's true that sometimes even we Marines make mistakes... ;)

And thanks for the link - I'll post my particulars in there!
 
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MayerMR

MayerMR

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Anyone care to tell me if I'm an idiot for going after that engine that "didn't sound happy"? I'm still thinking the new heads and other components may be worth the risk? Hopefully it's something as simple as a timing chain skipping a tooth or three...
 
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MayerMR

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Well, small update; I went out today and did finally have a chance to confirm that the engine is, indeed, completely seized. I wasn't able to see any evidence of external damage, though my search was admittedly pretty cursory. I threw a battery in it and the mileage is only about 183k - not low, but I was thinking it was going to be much higher.
 
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MayerMR

MayerMR

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well gents, since no one told me I was a big ole dummy for looking at that 4.7L engine I posted about last week, I went ahead and went out and bought it. Good news and bad news.

Bad news:
-The dummy left it in the back of his truck with the intake manifold off and the ports uncovered during last week's rain storms, so there was a bunch of water, complete with mosquito larvae swimming around in it. I could look down into the intake and see water pooling.

Good news:
-I told the guy that with all the water in the engine that I'd have to do an immediate teardown to clean the water out and even doing that I'm running a huge risk with having other significant issues in the engine...so I knocked him down another $200.

We dipped the engine over and drained out most of the water and loaded it into my truck.

Aside from the questionable engine, I also got the 4.7 ECM, another radiator, fan shroud, two sets of motor mounts, oil cooler, air box, alternator, etc. etc. Basically everything in the engine bay since he changed over to a hemi.

My buddy went along with me to pick up the engine and once we got back to the house, we started to prep the engine and got it on the engine stand. After that we went ahead and drained the oil...well, we got to the oil eventually, after about, no kidding, probably a gallon of water. That said, luckily, the water and oil was completely separated. As in, the water was clear and the oil was black.

PXL-20200919-205453149.jpg

We then got started on the post mortem. Let's just say it didn't take long.

Oooh, pretty, clean new re-manned head...everything looks pretty normal on this side...

PXL-20200919-212725901.jpg

Well, a different story on the driver's side. This doesn't look good...

PXL-20200919-211811546.jpg

Ah, yes, just as I suspected, ole girl had a timing chain problem...tensioner failure, to be exact.

PXL-20200919-211805933.jpg

A lot more light through there than what you should be seeing...

PXL-20200919-211852412.jpg

Let's go deeper....Yup, there's yer problem dere Jim...

PXL-20200919-213137312.jpg

PXL-20200919-213141592.jpg

After we finished the post mortem, we turned the engine over and removed the oil pan, windage tray, and oil pick-up (yes, the pick was sludgy, but not blocked. I went ahead and sprayed everything I could see with WD-40 to get the water out (though it looked like the water just slid down the oil-coated internals and straight into the pan. I also removed all the spark plugs and we drained the water out of the cylinders and, where present and sprayed WD-40 down in there.

This was pretty much the end of the day, so that's all the further I got today.
 
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MayerMR

MayerMR

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So here's what I'm thinking, and I'd love y'all's input - but as the timing chain jumped and there were at least three rockers that were just loose in there, I'm thinking I have *at least* three bent valves in the driver's side head.

Tomorrow I'm going to go out and remove the timing chain set and rotate the cam and see if I get free play (and full closure) on all the intake valves - which I doubt. If I don't, I'm going pull the exhaust manifold and check the same for the exhaust valves. My assumption is that I'm going to be pulling this head. With any luck, I *might* be able to avoid having to take it to City Motor Supply for reworking, but that'll depend on how bad the valves got whacked, and what else I find once the head is off.

Current new parts list:
  • Timing chain/tensioner set
  • Gasket set
  • Windage tray/oil pan gasket set
  • Spark plugs
  • Belt tensioner pulley(s)
  • Thermostat housing (cracked)
  • Oil pick-up tube o-ring (if not in the gasket set?)
Parts I'm most likely going to need:
  • Some new valves
  • New head bolts
  • Bunch of crap I can't even fathom just yet...

Anyway, if anyone else sees anything I missed, please let me know!
 
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MayerMR

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Well I spent Sunday doing further diagnosis and teardown. All four exhaust valves on the driver's side cylinder bank are bent. So as I suspected, the head had to come off. After removing the head and seeing that I wasn't able to get all the water out, as I had hoped, and seeing what it was/had done to the cylinder walls, I decided to pull both heads to clean the cylinders out as best as I could.

PXL-20200920-160411840.jpg

Unfortunately, the water had already done it's thing. So, hoping the best, we decided to further tear it down and remove the piston and crank to see if it could be honed out and to inspect the bearings (I mean, we're already this far, right?) Rod bearings looked really good. As did most of the crank bearings, but two in the rear had a little bit of pitting. Cylinders, where not rusted and lightly stained/marginally pitted, were glazed. Nearly every piston had at least some of the rings completely stuck in the grooves. I imagine this engine was quite the smoker.

Pictured below after a very light honing, before this the cylinders (where not rusted) looked like a glossy sheen of fresh clearcoat.
PXL-20200920-191915637.jpg

It was getting long on into the day by this point - we did do some preliminary honing, but I'm stilling thinking that I'm going to take this block to CMS and having them hot tank it and get their assessment on the cylinders. I have to take the driver's side head in anyway to get them to replace the valve guides and valves anyway.

PXL-20200920-191919582.jpg

Also, does anyone know where I get order a new oil pan that *doesn't* have paint on the inside? Or should I just take the OEM one down and get sandblasted? I'm not putting this damn thing back together with an oil pan that has a painted interior...
 
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