2 way or 3 way door speakers?

[Atcer2018]

The Kicker Key is setup to auto eq 4 speakers. So the front doors and dash for instance, or front and rear speakers, but not 6 speakers. It's not that it couldn't power all six speakers, but it wasn't designed for that. I'm going to run my rear 6x9's off the radio, then the door and dash speakers off the Kicker Key. I'm not using any of the factory speakers, but even if I was, I'd do it the same way.

Sorry for all the questions. I am of the understanding that the factory wiring of the dash and front door speakers on the basic audio setup is such that the factory head unit sees the two pairs as two individual speakers. Meaning the left front door and dash as a single speaker and the right front door and dash as a single speaker. Since I’m using the Mopar/Kicker performance upgraded speakers I have front door mid bass woofers and component tweeters with a capacitor on the tweeters used as a pseudo crossover. Wouldn’t the Kicker see this as a coaxial speaker in the DSP mode?

 

[canadiankodiak700]

Sorry for all the questions. I am of the understanding that the factory wiring of the dash and front door speakers on the basic audio setup is such that the factory head unit sees the two pairs as two individual speakers. Meaning the left front door and dash as a single speaker and the right front door and dash as a single speaker. Since I’m using the Mopar/Kicker performance upgraded speakers I have front door mid bass woofers and component tweeters with a capacitor on the tweeters used as a pseudo crossover. Wouldn’t the Kicker see this as a coaxial speaker in the DSP mode?

It would, but it's also going to really throw time alignment off as the sound traveling to the microphone is come from 2 different locations for technically the same speaker.
In your case with the upgraded woofer and tweeter, biamping those 2 fronts and not worrying about the rear is going to give you way better sound stage.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Graygoose]

yes it could power them all, but you wouldn't have the DSP.

 

[89grand]

Sorry for all the questions. I am of the understanding that the factory wiring of the dash and front door speakers on the basic audio setup is such that the factory head unit sees the two pairs as two individual speakers. Meaning the left front door and dash as a single speaker and the right front door and dash as a single speaker. Since I’m using the Mopar/Kicker performance upgraded speakers I have front door mid bass woofers and component tweeters with a capacitor on the tweeters used as a pseudo crossover. Wouldn’t the Kicker see this as a coaxial speaker in the DSP mode?

The biggest issue with doing this is not just the eq like I mentioned, but mostly the time alignment as mentioned by canadiankodiac700. The reason why the Kicker Key is so useful is because it does auto eq and time alignment. If one doesn't take advantage of that, or uses it improperly, they may as well buy a different 4 channel amp that doesn't do what they Key does and save money in the process.

The Key listens to each speaker it is powering (should only be door and dash, or front door rear door) with door and dash being the best option. It listens to each speaker to determine their distance from the listening position and the frequency response, then it calculates the correct time delay and eq for each speaker.

If you treated the door and dash speakers as one, I'd imagine it would trigger an error and not complete the auto eq/ta, but if it didn't, it wouldn't sound good at all, because the door and dash speakers are obviously in two drastically different locations. You could probably treat a mid and tweeter both in the a-pillar, or mid in the dash tweeter in the a-pillar as one speaker since they are close together, say in a 3 way front setup, with the mid and tweeter on the same channel and a passive crossover between them, but that's about the only case where 6 speakers could be seen as 4.

In a nutshell, your system would perform best bi-amped with the amp running the door and dash speakers, and the rear speakers either run off the radio, or with a separate 2 channel amp.

 

[Atcer2018]

Thank you 89grand. Your explanation clarified what I was looking for. I get it now!

 

[Atcer2018]

So since there are quite a few folks on here that have a much more expansive understanding of car audio than me can someone offer a suggestion on a good four channel amp that is small like the Key without DSP and has readily available T harnesses for semi plug and play installation on our Rams with the 8.4? I don’t want to cut factory harnesses or run new wiring as I am more than satisfied with the sound quality of the 8.4 with the Mopar/Kicker performance upgraded speakers I just want more volume.

 

[Mleads310]

I'm curious how would you go about tuning the key with the following:.
3-1/2" mid ranges in dash
6x9 or 6.5" components in the front doors
But 6x9/6.5" components come with tweeters crossed over...... ( Tweeter in this case would be placed within an inch or so of the door speaker if that makes any difference)

Would you need to disconnect the tweeter while letting the key do it's tuning? I'm guessing the key would see the dash mid range and tune that accordingly, but when it came to the door speaker it would detect a 6..5" (being the tweeter is crossed over after the power inputs of the 6.5") and it would be confused that it's also detecting highs that only a tweeter could produce.....does that make any sense?

 

[89grand]

So since there are quite a few folks on here that have a much more expansive understanding of car audio than me can someone offer a suggestion on a good four channel amp that is small like the Key without DSP and has readily available T harnesses for semi plug and play installation on our Rams with the 8.4? I don’t want to cut factory harnesses or run new wiring as I am more than satisfied with the sound quality of the 8.4 with the Mopar/Kicker performance upgraded speakers I just want more volume.

If you want the system exactly as is, but with just an amp, and no subwoofer or any other tuning this would be pretty easy.

I'd get this t-harness, it's the same one I'm using, it has a power and ground wire that you wouldn't use now, but it's there (it's not for an amp). You'd simply wire the speaker wires from the radio side to the amps inputs, using a speaker wire to RCA plug then from the amps outputs to the other end of the harness that would connect to the factory speaker wiring:

https://netaudio.com/product/2013-18-dodge-ram-radio-t-harness-2/

You could still use the Kicker Key, you just wouldn't use the microphone and run the auto setup. You can use it as a standard 4 channel amp. This way, if you decided later that you wanted the sound better, you could rewire it like I'm doing mine with the radio running the rear speakers and the door and dash bi-amped and run the auto setup then.

 

[89grand]

I'm curious how would you go about tuning the key with the following:.
3-1/2" mid ranges in dash
6x9 or 6.5" components in the front doors
But 6x9/6.5" components come with tweeters crossed over...... ( Tweeter in this case would be placed within an inch or so of the door speaker if that makes any difference)

Would you need to disconnect the tweeter while letting the key do it's tuning? I'm guessing the key would see the dash mid range and tune that accordingly, but when it came to the door speaker it would detect a 6..5" (being the tweeter is crossed over after the power inputs of the 6.5") and it would be confused that it's also detecting highs that only a tweeter could produce.....does that make any sense?

The Key can work 2 ways, when bi-amping the front. It either tunes to a woofer in the door and a tweeter in the dash, or a woofer in the door and a coaxial/wide band in the dash. It sets the crossover point at 3.2khz to both the woofer in the door and tweeter in the dash, then does it's normal tuning.

If you have a coxial/wide band in the dash it sets the crossover at 640hz in the door and 320hz in the dash, then does it's tuning. So a coaxial in the door or tweeter in the door would basically be tuned out. I wouldn't try connecting the tweeter after the fact

What are you actually running in the dash, it's is a true midrange? If I know exactly what you have I can probably figure out a way to use it.

 

[Mleads310]

Right now I have the jblgx302 in the dash, stock front door mids, infinity kappa 3 way rear doors and p2d4 for a sub, but after reading your audio overhaul thread I'm contemplating on the following: key 200 to bi-amp a set of either morel CCWR254 2-1/2" wide range or infinity kappa perfect 300m 3-1/2" mid range in the dash. And for the front doors kicker 47KSS6504 6-1/2" components , crossover and with 1" external tweeter.

 

[Atcer2018]

Thank you 89grand

 

[89grand]

Right now I have the jblgx302 in the dash, stock front door mids, infinity kappa 3 way rear doors and p2d4 for a sub, but after reading your audio overhaul thread I'm contemplating on the following: key 200 to bi-amp a set of either morel CCWR254 2-1/2" wide range or infinity kappa perfect 300m 3-1/2" mid range in the dash. And for the front doors kicker 47KSS6504 6-1/2" components , crossover and with 1" external tweeter.

What I would personally recommend is bi-amping the front, and use a 6x9 woofer for the most cone area you can get, as a 6.5 to me is a slight down grade. You can get the 6x9 CDT woofers I'm using for around $110, and their bass output is pretty strong. I wouldn't use a tweeter of any kind on the door set.

On the dash, the Morel is a pretty good choice. I've looked at it before. That is most likely an upgrade over the JBL's, and the JBL's have a weird low impedance, not ideal for the Kicker Key. If you want to run a separate tweeter, I'd run it next to the dash speakers. The only problem is you'd need a passive crossover of some sort there. I'd try the Morels without a tweeter first. You may not need one.

The best thing about the Key, is you can rerun it over and over again, using subtle tweaks to the factory eq to get it to tune a little differently.

 

[canadiankodiak700]

Your asking the key DSP to do something it can't, And for good reason. Your sound quality is going to suffer by trying to add in extra highs down in the doors where the mid are located. It's going to really miss up the soundstage.
You would be far better off picking up a set of 6x9 components, lots of companies make them. Kenwood had an awesome set of Excelons 6x9 woofer with a 3.5" for the dash, that are designed for our ram. Pioneer makes a decent set of 6x9 components with a tweeter, alpine, morel, that all have options. Ideally, stay away form a 2way or 3way etc in the door, just a low frequency woofer down there and get your nice highs up on the dash

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[W4RL0CK]

Ordered the Kenwood Excelons today from Crutchfield.

Sorry if I missed it but were the tweeters a direct fit in the dash? Do you have a link of what you ordered? Thank you.

 

[89grand]

Sorry if I missed it but were the tweeters a direct fit in the dash? Do you have a link of what you ordered? Thank you.

You're not asking me, but if I were to use a Kenwood set, it'd be this one. I like more frequency range on the dash (vocals and highs), rather then just tweeters, which all the vocals down in the door.

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_113XP6903C/Kenwood-Excelon-KFC-XP6903C.html?tp=106

 

[regal81455]

Your asking the key DSP to do something it can't, And for good reason. Your sound quality is going to suffer by trying to add in extra highs down in the doors where the mid are located. It's going to really miss up the soundstage.
You would be far better off picking up a set of 6x9 components, lots of companies make them. Kenwood had an awesome set of Excelons 6x9 woofer with a 3.5" for the dash, that are designed for our ram. Pioneer makes a decent set of 6x9 components with a tweeter, alpine, morel, that all have options. Ideally, stay away form a 2way or 3way etc in the door, just a low frequency woofer down there and get your nice highs up on the dash

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Im going to have to disagree. Ive got 3x 3.5s in the dash and 3way 6x9s in all four doors. The corners and doors are all running off an AC D6.1200 and the center is running off the oem alpine amp. Everything is level matched. My soundstage is right where it should be - right above the headunit. Im of the opinion that having mids in the front doors only is over blown.

 

[canadiankodiak700]

Im going to have to disagree. Ive got 3x 3.5s in the dash and 3way 6x9s in all four doors. The corners and doors are all running off an AC D6.1200 and the center is running off the oem alpine amp. Everything is level matched. My soundstage is right where it should be - right above the headunit. Im of the opinion that having mids in the front doors only is over blown.

It's great if your happy with it. But there is zero way do to proper time alignment with your frequencies when exch have a source come from multiple locations. The exact reason why the factory "premium" systems actually sound like horse **** to a trained ear. It's also the reason the factory setups set different frequencies up and down for each channel, trying to compensate for the messed up stage

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[regal81455]

Not gonna argue with you. I have a trained ear, been at this for just as long as you. If you were close Id invite you to take a seat and listen. We can agree to disagree, that is why afterall I said in my opinion.

 

[89grand]

Not gonna argue with you. I have a trained ear, been at this for just as long as you. If you were close Id invite you to take a seat and listen. We can agree to disagree, that is why afterall I said in my opinion.

I'm not trying to enter a disagreement, but I agree with canadiankodiac700. Ideally, ideally being the key word here, multiple locations playing the same frequencies, i.e. door and dash should be avoided.

If we could fit home speakers on our dash, we'd have one location for the woofers, mids and tweeters. All frequencies would come from that single location, and that location would be on the dash. Since that isn't practical in a vehicle, we have to make compromises. The best sounding systems have as much of the frequency response as possible at the dash level, level with your head if possible. Not in the doors and dash and behind you and wherever at the same time.

In my setup, everything from 320hz and up is on the dash. I only put 6x9's in the door and a subwoofer behind the seat because they won't fit in front of me on the dash. Time alignment makes this sound a lot more seamless than it would otherwise. But mainly vocals and high frequencies should be in one place, and that place is the dash, as far as practical locations are concerned.

If you choose to do it differently than this, and like the sound, well it isn't my place to say it sounds bad, but just like in a 2 channel home setup, we don't place multiple speakers in various spots. We place two speakers in specific spots in front of us, and ideally we sit a given distance from them at equal distances from both sides.

 

[regal81455]

All I said was IMO having mids ONLY in the front doors is overblown. The OP asked about whether he should use 2way or 3way speakers and IMO it's not going to hinder him either way. I think my stage is as accurate as one can hope to achieve in a car. With my eyes open or closed I do not hear vocals/guitar coming from my feet, only from the center of the dash except for when the composition calls for it to shift. I understand the concept quite clearly but music theory is as complicated as rocket science for which I don't have a degree in either. I can only go by what my ears are telling me.

Anyways, if it doesn't sound good to you who am I to say what you should do or think.

Some like their highs wailing, others want the most obnoxious bass you can achieve. Most want something that is pleasing to hear at all volume levels. It's all just a matter of taste.