Factory ZF 8 speed transmission fill procedure after doing a tranny service

[HEMIMANN]

Otherwise, I'd volunteer my Blackstone Kit (it arrived), if I could talk them into doing base stock analysis too. Looks like a 4 ounce bottle. That's what we used back in the Mesozoic Era as well.

Otherwise I'm going to use it on my PUP 0W-40 UOA in April / May.

 

[EdGs]

Ed did you ever get around to checking it's expansion factor from cold to 122 then 180??

No, I have not as of yet. Sorry.

 

[MRFREEZE57]

As you have probably seen from my previous posts, I like to research the fluid I use. I am also looking for adequate fluids for our two Hyundai vehicles and so far AMSOIL MV ATL seems the most suitable option for them. Unlike ZF Lifeguard, the Hyundai SP4 fluids are all over the place, ranging from 5.4 to 5.8 cSt, and their composition ranges from mineral to semi-synthetic. They're kind of a Dexron VI imitation, but without the strict specs. I'm talking about stuff like SK SP4, Michang SP4, and the other fluids mentioned in the owner's manual. Even Mopar sells an SP4-M fluid for the vehicles they sell with Hyundai transmissions. So aftermarket might not be bad for every transmission, it depends I guess. The ZF 8HP transmissions are tight tolerance and need a precisely designed fluid I suppose.

Can you please provide some examples where tuned vehicles running Red Line D6 or AMSOIL MV ATL in their ZF8 transmissions caused them to slip? I'm putting together a detailed guide for RAM 1500 owners about the fluids thy should and shouldn't use.




Considering that after using TES-389 fluid for the BW44-44 transfer case, they moved to glorified low viscosity tractor fluid because it was cheaper I guess, pretty much anything works in that transfer case. If anything, it needs less friction modifier, not more. The correct fluid from Red Line would be their D4 ATF though.

on the redline sight they call for the C+ atf for the TC.

 

[MRFREEZE57]

That still doesn't explain the issue of slip once you start putting some power to the tranny using aftermarket fluids.In a stock truck the aftermarket fluids are probably okay to use,but in something making some power the aftermarket fluids might not be the way to go.My truck for example puts down 572 lb-ft at 3200 rpm at the rear tires,and runs as quick as most Hellcats at the dragstrip,and with it i'm a little leary of the after market fluids. Even with a mild 20% correction factor for it being a 4X4,it's putting out roughly 685 lb-ft at the crank,which far exceeds the 8HP70's 516 lb-ft crank rating. To my knowledge neither Amsoil or Redline fluids have really been embraced in the hi-po end of things,in a stock setting they are probably acceptable though

I have not noticed any slippage, however my engine is stock so can't say weather would work in a high performance condition.

 

[Rod Knock]

Would be interesting to get a VOA of ZF ATF, incl. base stock type, if possible. Maybe that's already out there someplace? Not sure anyone wants to cough up a sample of this overpriced magic mouse milk for analysis.

Shell manufactures the Lifeguard 8 fluid. There is actually a certification for this fluid and it's called ZF TE-ML 11. So far, the only other officially approved fluid for 8HP transmissions is Petronas AS8. This ZF approval is very broad and covers all of their automotive consumer grade transmissions.

Lifeguard 8 is made with Group III+ base oils, there is no PAO in it. In fact, Mobil 1 makes an identical fluid for GM that is also Group III+ called Mobil 1 Synthetic LV ATF HP: https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants...roducts/products/mobil-1-synthetic-lv-atf-hp/

The first version of the Mobil 1 LV ATF HP fluid was PAO based and the friction modifiers and additives came from Afton Chemicals. The GM 8L90 and 8L45 (they're similar to 8HP70 and 8H45 from ZF) experienced shudder. Mobil 1 reformulated the oil with Group III+ oils and additives from Infineum (their own company co-owned with Shell) and that solved the issue. I am 99% certain that one could run Mobil 1 Synthethic LV ATF HP in a ZF 8HP transmission without any issues (the revised blue bottle that is). It's about the best Lifeguard 8 clone there is.

Otherwise I'm going to use it on my PUP 0W-40 UOA in April / May.

Just use it for your fine Group III+ based PUP 0W-40 UOA - The Lifeguard 8 is a Group III+ fluid with a low amount of friction modifiers in it. it's nothing really special, just expensive and what's needed for these transmissions to work. Also, it needs to be changed every 50,000 miles if you wanna keep your tranny, especially if you work that truck.

The high end tuner guys are the ones reporting the slip issues,apparently input and output shaft speeds don't correlate once you start getting above the 600 horse or 600lb-ft mark with some of the after market fluids. To my knowledge none of the high end tuners are reconmending anything other then the factory fluid at this point in time.Neither Redline or Amsoil are seeing much use in the high horsepower cars yet,that might be due to the fact nobody wants to be the guinnea pig though.If somebody wants to sponsor my truck,and pay for a new 8 speed if the tranny does take a ****,i'll try out both fluids,but as it stands,if it's coming out of my pocket,i'll stick with the factory overpriced ZF fluid for now.

It's friction modifier related. The 8HP transmissions, except maybe for those in SRT Hellcats and TRX, are designed for fuel efficiency, so they are built with tight tolerances in mind. So fluid has to be thin and friction modifiers have to be kept at a minimum. I am surprised that none of these tuners tried Red Line Racing ATF in a ZF 8HP transmission, as it has not friction modifiers to speak of. Very firm shifts

 

[HEMIMANN]

Thanks @phoenixgenesys. Just curious - how do you know all these details? You work in lubes biz?

 

[Rod Knock]

on the redline sight they call for the C+ atf for the TC.

Actually, they do make no recommendations for the BW44-44 transfer case, and I emailed Mr. David Granquist about that so that they can correct it. I guess no one put in the time and effort to research what goes in some of these RAM 1500 Borg Warner transfer cases. We must be a minority market for them. Also, if you read carefully, they recommend C+ ATF for the NV243, NV271 and NV273 transfer cases, which is correct, as those call for ATF+4. The Borg Warner cases, especially those with reduction gears, have a tendency to shear down the fluid. That's why FCA went to tractor fluid in 2018 and back specked it for BW44-44 down to 2016 models. It has nothing to do with the clutch. A more than capable fluid is TES-295 approved Delvac 1 ATF, or any TES-295 approved fluid. Of course, FCA are cheap, and Mobil Fluid LT can be had very cheap in bulk. Go figure...

[Edit]

Also, TES-389 is not specked to be shear-stable, because they are Group II based, but TES-295 is because they are PAO based. The Allison engineer that wrote the specs made sure to specify the base oils used in the fluids, and manufacturers have to adhere to it to get the certification. TES-389 came out after TES-295 as a Dexron III(H) replacement when GM stopped licensing Dex III, and TES-295 is DEX III compatible, but faaaaar superior.

The engineer's name is Tom Johnson aka "Mr. TranSynd" and he is a legend in his own right. From my findings, when he wrote the specs for TES-295, one of his concerns was shear stability. He also took into account seals and copper corrosion (and other soft metals). The man is brilliant.

 

[Rod Knock]

Thanks @phoenixgenesys. Just curious - how do you know all these details? You work in lubes biz?

I work in Infosec (IT) and tend to go down the rabbit hole when I research something interesting, especially when it comes to finding secrets.

[Edit]

Forgot about this video:
It explains what I'm trying to say very well and there is a UOA and a VOA for Lifeguard 8 fluid in there at 50,000 miles towards the end of the video. Keep in mind that it's from a car, not a truck.

 

[Wild one]

It's friction modifier related. The 8HP transmissions, except maybe for those in SRT Hellcats and TRX, are designed for fuel efficiency, so they are built with tight tolerances in mind. So fluid has to be thin and friction modifiers have to be kept at a minimum. I am surprised that none of these tuners tried Red Line Racing ATF in a ZF 8HP transmission, as it has not friction modifiers to speak of. Very firm shifts

I do know that Hellraiser Transmissions reconmends using the ZF fluid with their ZF transmissions,but whether Charles has actually tried out the Redline Racing ATF with one of his transmissions i couldn't tell you.

This question will probably pop up again,as it seems to every time guys watch a fluid change on a car,they'll be questioning why you have to jack the rear of the trucks up in the air,but not the cars. It's because 99% of the car applications have the transmission sitting virtually level with the ground when all 4 tires are sitting on the ground,while our trucks have the transmission sitting at a very inclined level towards the rear of the truck.With the trucks bigger transmission sump sitting towards the front of the transmission,and the fill/level checking plug is towards the rear of the truck,consequently the rear tires have to be lifted in the air a fair bit to get the tranny sitting at a level plane to get the proper fluid level reading at the fill plug.

 

[Burla]

I don't see the difference between lifegard zf or ravenol or maxlife, except for cost. If anything the high viscosity index suggests maxlife might even be a touch better. Regardless of what happens to the transmission true boutique oils, if it is running hot like 225f or better, you are gonna want them imo. You might want to find true pao, instead of pao/esters, dunno. But one thing is for sure, running hot is a temporary situation with any transmission, it aint gonna last. I'd at a minimum run a pan with a drain plug and get good at removing a gallon at a time and putting a gallon back with maxlife, at least keep the fluid fresh.

Amsoil also may be the way to go, any issues with amsoil?

 

[Wild one]

I don't see the difference between lifegard zf or ravenol or maxlife, except for cost. If anything the high viscosity index suggests maxlife might even be a touch better. Regardless of what happens to the transmission true boutique oils, if it is running hot like 225f or better, you are gonna want them imo. You might want to find true pao, instead of pao/esters, dunno. But one thing is for sure, running hot is a temporary situation with any transmission, it aint gonna last. I'd at a minimum run a pan with a drain plug and get good at removing a gallon at a time and putting a gallon back with maxlife, at least keep the fluid fresh.

Amsoil also may be the way to go, any issues with amsoil?

Personally i'm starting to think Amsoil and Redline might be to good Mike.There has to be some correlation between the aftermarket fluids causing clutch slip once you start putting some power to the tranny,and i'm thinking it might be because they are actually to good which translates to them being to slippery,and they start to cause clutch slip under a high power situation with lots of traction ,ie:dragstrip ,a good set of drag radials or slicks and lots of torque applied to the transmission at launch,throw in a 4,000 stall convertor,and the torque applied to the input shaft is probably the downfall of the aftermarket fluids.In a stock application the aftermarket fluids might be the way to go though.Like i said,if somebody wants to sponser my truck,i'll turn it up to where it'll be over 600lb-ft at the tires,and test the aftermarket fluids,but i want a brand new 8 speed sitting here first,lol

 

[Burla]

Personally i'm starting to think Amsoil and Redline might be to good Mike.There has to be some correlation between the aftermarket fluids causing clutch slip once you start putting some power to the tranny,and i'm thinking it might be because they are actually to good which translates to them being to slippery,and they start to cause clutch slip under a high power situation with lots of traction ,ie:dragstrip ,a good set of drag radials or slicks and lots of torque applied to the transmission at launch,throw in a 4,000 stall convertor,and the torque applied to the input shaft is probably the downfall of the aftermarket fluids.In a stock application the aftermarket fluids might be the way to go though.Like i said,if somebody wants to sponser my truck,i'll turn it up to where it'll be over 600lb-ft at the tires,and test the aftermarket fluids,but i want a brand new 8 speed sitting here first,lol

do you have examples of amsoil slipping in the zf? I heard of one (justin 16ramhemi) with redline, did you hear more? Maybe we should do a thread

 

[HEMIMANN]

ester has higher temp capability than pao - hence use in jet engines exclusively. esters used to cost a bunch more than pao, but no longer the case. Mobil Jet Oil II is a polyol ester, e.g. Ester might be a good app for tranny since they don't get changed often.

 

[Burla]

yes, but I would like to know of redline is causing some slippage in more then one transmission, if it is true, I'd be looking for alternatives. Maybe esters in the transmision is preventing clutches from grabbing for some reaon in that trans. I can tell you with zero hesitation c+ is incredible in the rfe, I used to drive in tow haul to avoid 3-4 gear shudder since new, went to redline c+ and never looked back, it is almost like somehow it holds the gears better, I would never use anything else at this point.

However, as we know the 8 speed is a completely different animal, I would like to know more and accept facts that exist, if multiple guys 8 speed slip on d6, I would look at other options. I don't see many options amsoil MV or a shorter interval and something with the same specs as zf fluid IE maxlife.

 

[Burla]

Every guy is gonna have to find a balance depending on this application, one size doesn't fit all. There might be a "best" choice, but that will be different based on the vehicle.

Justin who last I heard had an issue with redline in the zf, also was the first to report cold piston slap with 5w30 redline in the 5.7. Well now we know for sure that is a thing in many trucks. While that formula is built to kill hot oil tick, it is too thick at start up when that engine has some tolerance issues, so in those trucks it seams like 0w30 redline was the answer, or biotech mixed with some other oil.

If anything, what has been revealed at ram forum over the last ten years of trial and error, is how finicky these machines can be, and how great they are when you figure it out. When my truck was hemi ticking, could not wait til I bought a new truck, figured that **** out now all is good. Don't question it, just figure it out, it isn't the fluids fault but even the fluid built the best clearly can have a downside, figure it out.

Ty some things, and go with whatever works, and when you figure it out, stop trying new stuff and just stick with it. If buying the cheapest maxlife atf on a short interval is working for you, well we knew this for more then 5 years with shawn on eco diesel, something to consider if a boutique let you down. It isn't personal, it just is what it is. For 8 speed transmissions working hard or hot 225f+ or both, try some things, find what is best, it is most likely not going to be the same product for everyone no matter how the fluid is made.

 

[Rod Knock]

If anything, what has been revealed at ram forum over the last ten years of trial and error, is how finicky these machines can be, and how great they are when you figure it out. When my truck was hemi ticking, could not wait til I bought a new truck, figured that **** out now all is good. Don't question it, just figure it out, it isn't the fluids fault but even the fluid built the best clearly can have a downside, figure it out.

The ZF 8HP transmissions are consumer-level transmissions and as such they get treated accordingly by the manufacturer, meaning that they get away with not wanting to test and approve other fluids.

Transmissions with commercial applications, like the ones Allison makes, need to have openly available fluid specifications and offer certification programs for them, otherwise, no company will put vehicles in their fleet that have those transmissions in them.

I would never buy a RAM 2500/3500 with a ZF 8 speed transmission in it. They all use Lifeguard 8 fluid, and aside from the fact that you're essentially locked into one vendor for the fluid, it's also absolutely not suitable for commercial applications. I am sorry though for those that purchased these trucks for doing hot-shotting and other heavy-duty jobs. They got burned, I can tell you that much. Not just on the transmissions, but on the entire truck. FCA/Stellantis (now) want to keep you locked into their service/fluids/computer diagnostics so you have to always visit with the dealer. It might make them a quick buck on the consumer-facing side, but they will loose out long term on the commercial side.

A transmission fluid like Delvac 1 ATF wipes the floor with Lifeguard 8. It's not even about the viscosity when comparing transmission fluids (thicker fluid affects MPG), as much as friction modifiers. We're all enthusiasts here and don't have access to engineers and testing equipment and labs. However, essentially when trying to find alternative fluids that are better, the friction modification properties of the fluids have to be identical for a particular clutch material.

The easiest way for enthusiasts who modify anything with a ZF 8 speed transmission in it is to do a flush with Red Line Racing ATF, and then add an ounce or half an ounce per quart at a time of Lubegard Platinum ATF and tweak the transmission until the shifts feel right and it doesn't slip. That's about all we have access to and that's about all we can do. Alternatively, if the transmission is modified and the clutches are super beefed up, then straight RL Racing ATF can be run in it.

Tom Johnson, the former Allison engineer who wrote the specs for TES-295 jokingly told some guys on a Duramax forum to just put Ford Type F ATF in their transmissions to prevent them from slipping due to increased power levels because that fluid doesn't have friction modifiers. He then said not to do that because that ATF is way too old and won't hold to the heat. So there you go...

Ty some things, and go with whatever works, and when you figure it out, stop trying new stuff and just stick with it. If buying the cheapest maxlife atf on a short interval is working for you, well we knew this for more then 5 years with shawn on eco diesel, something to consider if a boutique let you down. It isn't personal, it just is what it is. For 8 speed transmissions working hard or hot 225f+ or both, try some things, find what is best, it is most likely not going to be the same product for everyone no matter how the fluid is made.

Shawn (RIP) offered us a lot of good info and I watched many of his videos even before I got the RAM 1500. His big mistake though was that he didn't buy a Heavy Duty truck, preferably from another manufacturer. More than likely it would have made his life much easier. Still, I am very grateful for what I learned from his videos.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Sidenote for a different gearbox - this winter I did first differential gear oil changeout @ 36k miles. Spent a fair amount of time analyzing options, found from this forum I had AAM Trac-Rite all gear Torsen "anti-spin" diff in the rear, and just a plain bevel diff in front.

No limited slip friction modifier additive is needed or desired, for reasons I won't get into here. Found only 3 w/o LS additive: Mopar of course (whoever makes it), Mobil Delvac 1 Gear Oil, Red Line NS Gear Oil.

Red Line was 2-1/2 times more expensive, didn't see much benefit because I also put Bank's cooling diff cover on, so I went with Mobil Delvac 1. Even my sons who can still hear noticed how much quieter the gearboxes are. Very happy.

 

[Burla]

Yeah eco diesel was a nice thought, but long term just didnt work out. Apparently Ford thinks they can do it better, eco diesel headed there way I believe this year. The idea of the 8 speed is nice, but having one that runs hot in a truck is just a clusterfudge imo.

 

[Wild one]

do you have examples of amsoil slipping in the zf? I heard of one (justin 16ramhemi) with redline, did you hear more? Maybe we should do a thread

Not on the trucks so much,it's more the high power car guys that are seeing the slip issues from what i've gathered up.From what i've heard it was AJ who first reported the issue,and that was supposedly awhile ago,so i'm guessing that would of been with Maxlife,as it was the first one to hit the market. I can't say as i've heard Amsoil specifically mentioned,as the rumour mill seems to lump all the aftermarket fluids together as one,lol.I'm already one 8 speed deep in my truck,so i'm very cautious/leery of what i put in it,otherwise i'd try out Amsoils version of ZF fluid.I can't say as i've heard of anybody in the high power game actually running either Redline or Amsoil yet,but there's gotta be somebody who's tried either fluid out in something putting down 700+hp to the wheels though,they just aren't making it known.

 

[Rod Knock]

Sidenote for a different gearbox - this winter I did first differential gear oil changeout @ 36k miles. Spent a fair amount of time analyzing options, found from this forum I had AAM Trac-Rite all gear Torsen "anti-spin" diff in the rear, and just a plain bevel diff in front.

No limited slip friction modifier additive is needed or desired, for reasons I won't get into here. Found only 3 w/o LS additive: Mopar of course (whoever makes it), Mobil Delvac 1 Gear Oil, Red Line NS Gear Oil.

Red Line was 2-1/2 times more expensive, didn't see much benefit because I also put Bank's cooling diff cover on, so I went with Mobil Delvac 1. Even my sons who can still hear noticed how much quieter the gearboxes are. Very happy.

Delvac 1 and Shell Spirax S6 are top choices for gear oils, and they are both J2360, and MIL-spec approved. RedLine makes an enthusiast-grade fluid, and it's okay for cars, SUVs, and light-duty trucks, but I wouldn't use it over Delvac 1. AMSOIL Severe Gear wants to mimic Delvac, but it's not any better, and because it has a friction modifier in it, it's not as good. And it's not J2360, or MIL-spec approved. AMSOIL comes across as kind of like this, at least to me: imagine if Valvoline and Schaeffers had a love child... They make a good product, but I always find it funny when comparing heavy-duty spec fluids and oils with consumer-grade stuff, like their gear oils, for example. I want to see Severe Gear put up against Delvac 1 and Shell Spirax S6 gear oils and see who is better and passes all of the heavy-duty approvals and who doesn't. I like Red Line because they don't make such absurd comparisons. AMSOIL also recommends there Severe Gear oil for big rigs and other commercial trucks, so the comparison would be more than fair.

On the other hand, I wouldn't use Mobil 1 gear oil in anything. It's nothing like Delvac, and I think that's because MobilExxon doesn't want to cannibalize commercial sales from Delvac. Valvoline SynPower is leaps and bounds better if you want something you can get at Walmart or your local gas station.

I can understand that many want to stick with one brand for everything, and it's usually RedLine Oil or AMSOIL. I was like that as well, but now I no longer care. If the fluid meets my needs and has the approvals that I want, I will use it regardless of brand. I usually favor heavy-duty commercial and/or European fluids and oils.