Factory ZF 8 speed transmission fill procedure after doing a tranny service

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HEMIMANN

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Footnote: I got on the phone with Amsoil and argued with them about no gear oils w/o LS additives. Of course, I got the boilerplate response that everything is just fine with LS in it. Well yes, I could get buttermilk to work as a gear lube for a while too. That's not the point - the point is to apply the lubricant that is designed for the application.

It was like talking to a brick wall. They only want to hear praise for their wonderfulness - not reality.
 
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Wild one

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The ZF 8HP transmissions are consumer-level transmissions and as such they get treated accordingly by the manufacturer, meaning that they get away with not wanting to test and approve other fluids.



fluids (thicker fluid affects MPG), as much as friction The easiest way for enthusiasts who modify anything with a ZF 8 speed transmission in it is to do a flush with Red Line Racing ATF, and then add an ounce or half an ounce per quart at a time of Lubegard Platinum ATF and tweak the transmission until the shifts feel right and it doesn't slip. That's about all we have access to and that's about all we can do. Alternatively, if the transmission is modified and the clutches are super beefed up, then straight RL Racing ATF can be run in it.


The problem with that analogy is the fact you might be buying a new transmission before you get the fluid mix figured out.
I'll experiment with alot of things,but i'm not a big fan of experimenting with tranny fluid or mixing it with an additive package.
I run nitrous on my truck,so i put a ****load of torque at the tranny right off idle ( truck spins the rollers to 572 lb-ft at only 3200 rpm,and is a torque monster right off idle),and i'll be the first to say the after market fluids scare me enough to the point i won't try them,at least not till there's more info on how they hold up under extreme conditions.In a stock application i'm sure they're perfectly fine as Shawn and VernDiesal have proven.VernDiesal has probably abused the tranny more then most with his tweaked Eco-Diesal,but he's still well under what i'm throwing at my tranny for torque though
 

Rod Knock

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The problem with that analogy is the fact you might be buying a new transmission before you get the fluid mix figured out.
I'll experiment with alot of things,but i'm not a big fan of experimenting with tranny fluid or mixing it with an additive package.
I run nitrous on my truck,so i put a ****load of torque at the tranny right off idle ( truck spins the rollers to 572 lb-ft at only 3200 rpm,and is a torque monster right off idle),and i'll be the first to say the after market fluids scare me enough to the point i won't try them,at least not till there's more info on how they hold up under extreme conditions.In a stock application i'm sure they're perfectly fine as Shawn and VernDiesal have proven.VernDiesal has probably abused the tranny more then most with his tweaked Eco-Diesal,but he's still well under what i'm throwing at my tranny for torque though

You're absolutely right, however, I was thinking of shops or folks that have money to throw at the problem. Anyway, you're absolutely right.

Let's put it this way: AMSOIL has bout 312 employees, and RedLine Oil has about 128 (I got the figures online). I think more people worked on developing and testing the Dexron III(H) specification and subsequently licensed fluids than the entirety of AMSOIL Inc. The reason why both of these companies can easily manufacture so many fluids is that they don't submit any of them for any approvals or certifications and because they are basically blenders. I've seen just how much testing Mobil did when they came up with their Mobil 1 Annual Protection line of motor oils. It's been discontinued by the way, but it was good stuff. I'm pretty sure that neither AMSOIL nor RedLine Oil does that kind of testing for all their products combined. They lab test what they sell and that's about it, and get feedback from customers. AMSOIL seems more serious about their products, but that's because they have better access to base oils and additives (ExxonMobil, Shell, Lubrizol, probably Infineum). For example, their Torque Drive fluid is a clone of Delvac 1 ATF. I wouldn't be surprised if they just buy it from ExxonMobil and repackage it under their own brand. Since they never submitted it to Allison or Daimler for any approvals, ExxonMobil won't have any beef with them as far as competition goes. Just a hunch.
 

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Actually, they do make no recommendations for the BW44-44 transfer case, and I emailed Mr. David Granquist about that so that they can correct it. I guess no one put in the time and effort to research what goes in some of these RAM 1500 Borg Warner transfer cases. We must be a minority market for them. Also, if you read carefully, they recommend C+ ATF for the NV243, NV271 and NV273 transfer cases, which is correct, as those call for ATF+4. The Borg Warner cases, especially those with reduction gears, have a tendency to shear down the fluid. That's why FCA went to tractor fluid in 2018 and back specked it for BW44-44 down to 2016 models. It has nothing to do with the clutch. A more than capable fluid is TES-295 approved Delvac 1 ATF, or any TES-295 approved fluid. Of course, FCA are cheap, and Mobil Fluid LT can be had very cheap in bulk. Go figure...

[Edit]

Also, TES-389 is not specked to be shear-stable, because they are Group II based, but TES-295 is because they are PAO based. The Allison engineer that wrote the specs made sure to specify the base oils used in the fluids, and manufacturers have to adhere to it to get the certification. TES-389 came out after TES-295 as a Dexron III(H) replacement when GM stopped licensing Dex III, and TES-295 is DEX III compatible, but faaaaar superior.

The engineer's name is Tom Johnson aka "Mr. TranSynd" and he is a legend in his own right. From my findings, when he wrote the specs for TES-295, one of his concerns was shear stability. He also took into account seals and copper corrosion (and other soft metals). The man is brilliant.

I noticed that it does say for the NV series cases but is their really that much difference in most transfer case designs and are they that particular for a specific lube? valvoline makes a generic TC lube for about 9 bucks a quart and says is one fits all and Amsoil recommends the same lube for the NV and both BW cases. the Ram is the first 4WD I have owned, guess time will tell if I done the right thing with the TC lube.
 

Rod Knock

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I noticed that it does say for the NV series cases but is their really that much difference in most transfer case designs and are they that particular for a specific lube? valvoline makes a generic TC lube for about 9 bucks a quart and says is one fits all and Amsoil recommends the same lube for the NV and both BW cases. the Ram is the first 4WD I have owned, guess time will tell if I done the right thing with the TC lube.

Not really, however, make sure to run a shear stable fluid that's around 7 to 7.5 cSt@100C. That's why I recommend Delvac 1 ATF because it's TES-295 certified and they can't cheapen the formula because Allison pulls their license. Looking at the properties of RedLine C+ ATF, it seems that it has some VII in it. Truthfully, I doubt it matters. I would not, however, use Valvoline TC fluid, it's thin Group III oil.
 

chrisbh17

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Delvac 1 and Shell Spirax S6 are top choices for gear oils, and they are both J2360, and MIL-spec approved. RedLine makes an enthusiast-grade fluid, and it's okay for cars, SUVs, and light-duty trucks, but I wouldn't use it over Delvac 1. AMSOIL Severe Gear wants to mimic Delvac, but it's not any better, and because it has a friction modifier in it, it's not as good. And it's not J2360, or MIL-spec approved. AMSOIL comes across as kind of like this, at least to me: imagine if Valvoline and Schaeffers had a love child... They make a good product, but I always find it funny when comparing heavy-duty spec fluids and oils with consumer-grade stuff, like their gear oils, for example. I want to see Severe Gear put up against Delvac 1 and Shell Spirax S6 gear oils and see who is better and passes all of the heavy-duty approvals and who doesn't. I like Red Line because they don't make such absurd comparisons. AMSOIL also recommends there Severe Gear oil for big rigs and other commercial trucks, so the comparison would be more than fair.

On the other hand, I wouldn't use Mobil 1 gear oil in anything. It's nothing like Delvac, and I think that's because MobilExxon doesn't want to cannibalize commercial sales from Delvac. Valvoline SynPower is leaps and bounds better if you want something you can get at Walmart or your local gas station.

I can understand that many want to stick with one brand for everything, and it's usually RedLine Oil or AMSOIL. I was like that as well, but now I no longer care. If the fluid meets my needs and has the approvals that I want, I will use it regardless of brand. I usually favor heavy-duty commercial and/or European fluids and oils.

Are you on BITOG?

I think we were just messaging in a thread there. You mentioned Castrol Syntrax for the diffs, but not on here. Any reason why? (not calling out, just curious)
 

Rod Knock

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Are you on BITOG?

I think we were just messaging in a thread there. You mentioned Castrol Syntrax for the diffs, but not on here. Any reason why? (not calling out, just curious)

YogiTheCat on BITOG. It's kind of too late to change my handle on here because it would create a mess. I left out Castrol Syntrax because I only mentioned the European version on BITOG. It's kind of hard to get. However, it's very good stuff. The Castrol Syntrax 75W-90 black bottle is about the same as Mobil 1 75W-90, so not that great. Valvoline SynPower would be my choice if I couldn't get anything else above it, and Mobil 1 only if I was stuck on an island alone with my truck and it was the only thing available there for a diff fluid change.
 

Rod Knock

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Just wanted to touch back on the BW44-44 transfer case fluid:

Here is the MSDS for Mopar BW44-44 Transfer Case fluid #68089195AA: https://www.kwparts.com/media/1695/68049954ga_eng.pdf

Here is the MSDS for Shell Spirax S2 A389 transmission fluid: https://shop.sclubricants.com/pub/media/sds/shell/Shell-Spirax-S2-ATF-A389-MSDS.pdf

Look at the safety section, they are identical. Considering that the Shell is an Allison TES-389 certified fluid, chances that these two would be identical are nill. By the way, Allison asks for $50K just to start the certification process (set up a dyno), plus all subsequent costs.

It's basically Dexron III(H) fluid with an update to protect Viton seals.

In 2018 RAM switched the transfer case fluid to Mobilfluid LT.

The only reliable way to tell what you have in your transfer case is when you do your first drain and fill. If RED fluid comes out then it's ATF, if it's AMBER or BLUISH (depending on condition and how the light shines on it) it's Mobilfluid LT. I doubt that you will find Mobilfluid LT at least up until the 2018 model year, but some input from others would be appreciated.

I also take back my recommendation for adding Lubegard Platinum ATF protectant to any of the fluids I'm about to list. It contains friction modifiers and the last thing you need is for your transfer case clutch to slip when you need it the most. Lubegard Red ATF Protectant would work, but the fluids below are of such high quality that you don't need it.

Suitable replacements:

For RED Dexron III(H) ATF (BW44-44 and BW44-45):
- Shell Spirax S2 A389
- Mobil Delvac 1 ATF - it's TES-295 approved and suitable to replace Dexron III(H) and TES-389 fluids - this is a huge upgrade to what came in your transfer case but it's $50/gallon
- Castrol TranSynd - TES-295 certified - upgrade to original fluid
- Shell Spirax S6 A295 - TES-295 certified - upgrade to original fluid
- AMSOIL MV ATF
- AMSOIL TORQUE DRIVE - a Castrol TranSynd clone and not officially tested or approved by Allison
- RedLine Oil D4 ATF - recommended for TES-389 applications
- RedLine Oil High-Temp ATF - recommended for Dexron III applications - use this if you really abuse your transfer case

For AMBER colored fluid - Mobilfluid LT (BW44-44, BW48-11, BW48-13):
- Mobil 1 Mobilfluid LT - obviously - it's sold only in 5-gallon buckets, so a bucket will outlast the useful life of your truck, unless you have friends nearby with BW44-44 (2018 and newer), BW48-11, or BW48-13 transfer cases - then you can all pitch in
- RedLine Oil MT-LV - 70W/75W - according to David Granquest from RedLine Oil this is a suitable replacement for Mobilfluid LT - he did not say to use this in the transfer cases I listed, he just said that it's a suitable replacement
- RedLine Oil MT 75W-80 - this is a bit thicker than Mobilfluid LT and is used in transfer cases and this is what I found to match Mobilfluid LT
- sorry, there aren't many great options but Mobilfluid LT is not expensive on a per quart basis, it's just not sold in anything less than a 5-gallon bucket.

Please be cautious about what the AMSOIL and RedLine websites recommend. Their databases are a bit out of wack and not up-to-date, and they don't seem to care about updating them.

I hope this helps.
 

chrisbh17

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Re the 44-44: I once found a PDF parts list of the 44-44, and IIRC one or two of the parts were listed as up to 2016, with slightly different part numbers for later than 2016.

But it was not an FCA document, so it could mean that FCA didnt use the updated parts until MY18, or they could have started using them in MY17, or they even switched somewhere in between.

Assuming those parts are the ones that needed the updated fluid (I think they were, because they were clutch related), the ONLY real way is to drain a little fluid and check the color....assuming the color doesnt get tainted with age.
 

Rod Knock

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Assuming those parts are the ones that needed the updated fluid (I think they were, because they were clutch related), the ONLY real way is to drain a little fluid and check the color....assuming the color doesnt get tainted with age

If you could please provide a link to that document, that would be great. I'd love to read it. If the parts were clutch-related, then I'm reasonably sure that they need less, not more, friction modifiers. Why? Because Mobilfluid LT is technically a low-viscosity universal tractor fluid, and as such, I doubt it has any meaningful amount of friction modifiers. It's usually not used in any automatic transmissions. If anyone can chime in on this, I would appreciate it. Maybe we can establish some fluid guide to making all of our lives easier.
 

chrisbh17

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If you could please provide a link to that document, that would be great. I'd love to read it. If the parts were clutch-related, then I'm reasonably sure that they need less, not more, friction modifiers. Why? Because Mobilfluid LT is technically a low-viscosity universal tractor fluid, and as such, I doubt it has any meaningful amount of friction modifiers. It's usually not used in any automatic transmissions. If anyone can chime in on this, I would appreciate it. Maybe we can establish some fluid guide to making all of our lives easier.

Found it....the 2 parts in question are the mode hub and the range fork.

Note this only shows up to 2017.

https://marketing.transtar1.com/acton/attachment/18758/f-147c/1/-/-/-/-/BW4444 Flyer 0917.pdf

Im not sure if the mode hub is "wet", so not sure if a fluid change was related to it or not.

EDIT: just noticed, they released a different clutch pack. The original is on the list as 2011-2016, but if you look for the part number it references diagram part number 625, which if you look that up is a different clutch pack shown for 2011-2017.
 

Rod Knock

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Found it....the 2 parts in question are the mode hub and the range fork.

Note this only shows up to 2017.

https://marketing.transtar1.com/acton/attachment/18758/f-147c/1/-/-/-/-/BW4444 Flyer 0917.pdf

Im not sure if the mode hub is "wet", so not sure if a fluid change was related to it or not.

EDIT: just noticed, they released a different clutch pack. The original is on the list as 2011-2016, but if you look for the part number it references diagram part number 625, which if you look that up is a different clutch pack shown for 2011-2017.

Thank you, I will look it over. Just checked a bunch of owner's manuals. Up until 2018 model year they reference "Mopar BW44-44 Fluid" for all transfer cases, which is Dexron III(H). Then in the 2019 manual for the 1500. classic they reference "Mopar Transfer Case Lubricant for Borg Warner BW44-44 and BW44-45" and then in the 2020 manual for the 1500 classic they just say Mobilfluid LT. Someone seriously needs to get fired at FCA/Stellantis.

The 2021 RAM 1500 Classic is mostly Tradesman with the BW44-45 transfer case. I can't find a manual for 2021, but I bet they just carried over 2020. Honestly, I see no reason why a certified Dexron III(H) type fluid or TES389/TES-295 ATF wouldn't work in all of these transfer cases.
 

Rod Knock

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@chrisbh17

It looks like they changed the clutch pack for BW44-44 transfer cases that are 2017 or newer.

So basically if you have a RAM 1500 model year 2016 or older, then you have to use a Dexron III(H) type of fluid, preferably TES-389 certified. You can use TES-295 certified fluid if you want something better that lasts longer and doesn't shear.

If you have a RAM 1500 Classic 2017 or a newer model year, then you should use Mobilfluid LT, or the super mega overprice Mopar #68049954AC fluid, which is basically Mobilfluid LT in a quart bottle.

I'm amazed how FCA managed to f*ck up this recommendation and cause so much confusion. Some real idiots must work there... I'm so glad everyone has a job, right?

My truck was built in mid-2015, so it's impossible for it to have the "updated" clutch pack. I also don't see a problem running a high-quality synthetic ATF in the 2017+ BW44-44 transfer cases. The clutch engagement is low speed, so the type of fluid isn't that important. Many here are running RedLine Oil C+ ATF just fine in these transfer cases.
 

HEMIMANN

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Thank you, I will look it over. Just checked a bunch of owner's manuals. Up until 2018 model year they reference "Mopar BW44-44 Fluid" for all transfer cases, which is Dexron III(H). Then in the 2019 manual for the 1500. classic they reference "Mopar Transfer Case Lubricant for Borg Warner BW44-44 and BW44-45" and then in the 2020 manual for the 1500 classic they just say Mobilfluid LT. Someone seriously needs to get fired at FCA/Stellantis.

The 2021 RAM 1500 Classic is mostly Tradesman with the BW44-45 transfer case. I can't find a manual for 2021, but I bet they just carried over 2020. Honestly, I see no reason why a certified Dexron III(H) type fluid or TES389/TES-295 ATF wouldn't work in all of these transfer cases.


Spec-by-Committees is no good. Esp. when the committee changes every year in corporate America. I lived the dream in the 2000's.
 

HEMIMANN

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If anyone wants to go down this rabbit hole, it's pretty good stuff: https://bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/

I couldn't help myself, & read it.

This is a great overview of AT's at an engineering level by Moula. The takeaway is wet clutches in AT's are used repeatedly - at every shift (as opposed to a wet brake in a tractor or something). They produce very high oil temperature at the clutch surface during clutch engagement.

So, it's not only important to use a high quality oil (and a cooler for heavy duty usages), but to change the oil at reasonable intervals - to remove oxidation products along with clutch & gear shavings, and to replenish additives and ****** base oil.
 

Rod Knock

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After some thinking and going over my conversations with @Burla I gave in and went all RedLine Oil.

I just placed my order on Amazon and got the following:

Engine Oil: RedLine Oil 5W-30

Transfer Case (BW44-44): RedLine Oil D4 ATF - David from RedLine said that their equivalent of Mobilfluid LT is RedLine Oil MT-LV - so if I don't find ATF in my transfer case when I remove the fill plug, I will order me two quarts of MT-LV. I got one more email. I'm waiting for a response because I have a hunch that RedLine MTL might be a better choice. Otherwise, D4 ATF fits the BW44-44 spec-wise like a glove, and it's recommended for TES-389 and TES-295 applications.

Rear Differential: RedLine Oil 75W-140 - I don't have the patience to tune the NS version and add friction modifier one ounce at a time.

Front Differential: RedLine Oil 75W-85 - I wanted to go with 75W-90NS (since there are no 75W-85NS), but I live in North Carolina, and I hardly use 4WD, so MPG is more important.

If time allows, and the weather is nice, I will document the fluid changes.

Your thoughts?
 

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Do you have hemi tick?
 
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