Lifter Failure / Hot Oil / Better Cooling etc.

[dragrazor]

Fatigue failure is a statistical probability. The Hemi lubrication system is marginal - not missing altogether. High flow rate oils and filters help, as does low idling time and oil with supplemental dry film lubricant additives, as does oil change intervals of 5,000 miles max.

After that, it's luck of the draw.

what dry film oil additive do you recommend?

 

[HEMIMANN]

Guys here have had good results with soluble moly. The synthetic oil thread has over 4,000 posts about experiences.

Use a high moly oil or add Lube Gard to one that isn't. Wear test data shows the break point in benefit slows markedly past 200 ppm.

 

[dragrazor]

Thank you

 

[Black1500Ram]

Hello everyone. Been looking through the 22 pages here and have found a lot of great information on the hemi tick. First off, I am new to the Ram world. Been a ford guy for many years. I just bought a 2019 Ram classic warlock With a hemi With low miles. The previous owner used Mobil 1 5w-20 with a mopar filter. i have a 2 part question for you guys. 1) anything you guys recommend me to do to “try”to avoid the hemi tick. Question 2 falls in with question 1. The op states that he did regular maintenance, did not have much idle time, took care of his motor as much as anyone could/would. The question is, if it’s true that only 5% of hemis are affected, what is the difference between the motors and what years are being affected? If the lifters do not get much oil lubrication at long idle times, how are most engines lasting close to 100,000 miles?

From all my research it seems to be based on “severe” duty use: idling, towing, WOT, hot climate, OCI. That’s all I can surmise since like you mentioned some engines are getting 100k, 200k with no issues.

1a) use the high wear additive based oils recommended in the synthetic oil thread.

1b) use high flow filters used in the oil filter thread.

1c) find ways to lower engine temps (some listed in this thread)

2) is unknown. That’s kinda what I wanna know. Many people have ruled out poor metallurgy of the cam. I haven’t seen any metallurgy reports done on pre AD lifter roller bearings. I’ll be happy to send mine out when I pull them. But even still there are plenty of <AC lifters still going strong without issue… which could be batch related qc or again those severe duty conditions above. AD lifters have failed also.

I’m no hemi expert but I do have a mech eng. degree and I’ve listed my opinions on what I plan to do to remedy my lifter issue here.

Non mds engines by design (plugs vs mds solenoid) have better oil flow. There have still been issues in non mds engines though. The other fixes are also listed.

Best we can do is improve quality of oil, and oil flow via filter and fundamental design changes (idle rpm, oil pumps, non mds).

 

[HEMIMANN]

From all my research it seems to be based on “severe” duty use: idling, towing, WOT, hot climate, OCI. That’s all I can surmise since like you mentioned some engines are getting 100k, 200k with no issues.

1a) use the high wear additive based oils recommended in the synthetic oil thread.

1b) use high flow filters used in the oil filter thread.

1c) find ways to lower engine temps (some listed in this thread)

2) is unknown. That’s kinda what I wanna know. Many people have ruled out poor metallurgy of the cam. I haven’t seen any metallurgy reports done on pre AD lifter roller bearings. I’ll be happy to send mine out when I pull them. But even still there are plenty of <AC lifters still going strong without issue… which could be batch related qc or again those severe duty conditions above. AD lifters have failed also.

I’m no hemi expert but I do have a mech eng. degree and I’ve listed my opinions on what I plan to do to remedy my lifter issue here.

Non mds engines by design (plugs vs mds solenoid) have better oil flow. There have still been issues in non mds engines though. The other fixes are also listed.

Best we can do is improve quality of oil, and oil flow via filter and fundamental design changes (idle rpm, oil pumps, non mds).

A lifter / cam failure report I saw in the Forum way back reported cam surface hardness of Rc 59. While we don't know what the hardness limits are for Hemi cams, that cam was definitely highly hardened. The lifter roller was seized, spalled, turned sideways in the bore, and wiped the cam.

 

[MichaelCB]

I have a 2018 RAM with 93,000 miles. I just had the dreaded misfire after several months of ticking. I now have new lifters and cam. The Cylinder 5 lifter roller was gone and I had metal fragments in the pan. The cam was scarred as well. I was told the oil pump does not do the job getting oil to the lifters, especially when at idle. The bigger 6.4 HEMI has a larger oil pump. Why hasn't Dodge corrected this problem with the 5.7? It is obviously a known issue. I was told I should change the oil based on engine time and not mileage. It looks like I'll be changing every 2500-3000 and using Mobil One synthetic which I have been using regardless. I have a 2 year parts and labor warranty on the work so I will drive it for a while and then I am done.

 

[Black1500Ram]

I have a 2018 RAM with 93,000 miles. I just had the dreaded misfire after several months of ticking. I now have new lifters and cam. The Cylinder 5 lifter roller was gone and I had metal fragments in the pan. The cam was scarred as well. I was told the oil pump does not do the job getting oil to the lifters, especially when at idle. The bigger 6.4 HEMI has a larger oil pump. Why hasn't Dodge corrected this problem with the 5.7? It is obviously a known issue. I was told I should change the oil based on engine time and not mileage. It looks like I'll be changing every 2500-3000 and using Mobil One synthetic which I have been using regardless. I have a 2 year parts and labor warranty on the work so I will drive it for a while and then I am done.

There’s soooo much info in this forum on the topic. FCA won’t fix cause it’s an issue thats only been documented to affect what 1% of production?

On my side of things the buying has begun. I bought all the non oem parts and some of the ancillary oem parts, just waiting on dealers to give me an eta.

 

[ramffml]

There’s soooo much info in this forum on the topic. FCA won’t fix cause it’s an issue thats only been documented to affect like 5% of production.

I think we have to be careful with that word "documented". There are no official numbers, what we have is just user speculation, based on hearsay from various mechanics. And it's worth noting that some garages say they see a bunch, some see none at all, and one guy on YT (reignited) saying he saw different numbers after moving from one state to another and also different numbers from different model years.

I personally believe the number is < 1 percent based on user reports on forums. FCA has sold several millions of these hemis by now, even seeing thousands of reports on a combination of forums might look excessive but 10000 from 5 million is still a tiny fraction.

It's a scale issue. When you sell that many of one item, even 1 percent of failure brings massive amounts of user reports which seems worrisome, but for an individual like you or I, the probability of it affecting us personally is tiny.

 

[Black1500Ram]

I concur, and that’s precisely the point I was trying to get at.

I’m using ‘documented’ as someone has pulled and replaced cams and lifters and seen physical damage and made some kind of record of it, whether that be at mechanic shops, forums, etc.

Out of every 100 of those, FCA probably knows about what mayyyybe 5%? So yeah 5% of the 1000’s is still .001%?? of the millions of hemi engines sold.

But yet I AM one of those affected; my truck has it and I’ve followed every maintenance schedule called for by the manufacturer so I’m pissed. And the fact fca is like oh well it’s a $4k repair and no we won’t offer you any discount is crappy customer service IMO. Even if they gave me parts at cost they’d be in my good graces.

This is an entirely unfair generalized statement but I’m saying it nonetheless.

I’ve only owned 2 American vehicles; a 98 ford explorer 5.0 and this ram. Both have had major mechanical engine failures.

Non of the Japanese or German cars I’ve owned have had these kinds of failures and I beat the ever loving mess out of them. 600hwhp stock bottom end bmw, 400whp stock bottom end Honda, 0 issues.

Flame on I deserve it (my 2 out of the ***,***,***'s is immaterial) but that’s my personal experience.

So now I’m one of the possibly xx,***+ owners who are having to shell out $2k+ to fix an issue that IMO shouldn’t be the consumers responsibility to bear.

/Rant

 

[ramffml]

What I really don't understand about this issue, is that FCA had a problem with the 3.6 pentastar in my 2012 Grand Cherokee. Something about a head failure that affected a small amount of those engines in that year and they handled it very well. They sent a notice to all customers who might be affected by it, and promised to warranty that specific part of the engine well past the normal drivetrain warranty. I don't remember the extension details, something like 10 years or 250,000 KM or something like that. But we were taken care of proactively.

Possibly this lifter failure is just too pricey for them to handle that way, but that sort of response (extension of warranty on lifters/cam) is basically what's needed for them to make this right.

 

[Black1500Ram]

…Possibly this lifter failure is just too pricey for them to handle that way, but that sort of response (extension of warranty on lifters/cam) is basically what's needed for them to make this right.

Couldn’t agree more! Maybe they’ll see this thread and take notice.

 

[ramffml]

Found the letter still in my filing cabinet:

 

[HEMIMANN]

What I really don't understand about this issue, is that FCA had a problem with the 3.6 pentastar in my 2012 Grand Cherokee. Something about a head failure that affected a small amount of those engines in that year and they handled it very well. They sent a notice to all customers who might be affected by it, and promised to warranty that specific part of the engine well past the normal drivetrain warranty. I don't remember the extension details, something like 10 years or 250,000 KM or something like that. But we were taken care of proactively.

Possibly this lifter failure is just too pricey for them to handle that way, but that sort of response (extension of warranty on lifters/cam) is basically what's needed for them to make this right.

I can almost assure you it's all about the benjamins, from having worked in corporate America for 32 years, the last stop being Cummins. I was part of the management teams making these warranty decisions - and specifically, whether to fix-as-fail on known issues. Which we did for a $125,000 engine.

 

[Black1500Ram]

Ok so I’ve been thinking through this a lot and I’m not sure I need to go the mds delete route ($800 difference).

Given I’ve switched to redline 5w30 and will be installing the hellcat pump and that sooooo many mds engines don’t have issues, I don’t know that I need to (thinking this fix will buy me another 80-100k along with other scheduled maintenance). Still haven’t decided yet.

One question, if I stay with mds, do you think there’s still a benefit for the performance valve springs?

 

[Wild one]

Ok so I’ve been thinking through this a lot and I’m not sure I need to go the mds delete route ($800 difference).

Given I’ve switched to redline 5w30 and will be installing the hellcat pump and that sooooo many mds engines don’t have issues, I don’t know that I need to. Still haven’t decided yet.

One question, if I stay with mds, do you think there’s still a benefit for the performance valve springs?

It's usually never a bad thing to replace high milege valve springs.They do fatigue and basically wear out.

 

[Black1500Ram]

Nvm found the performance springs, ordered.

Ended up staying mds with the logic of it’s my daily, it’s performed its duties fine in mds trim.

Better oil and filter (redline/ royal purple), done some cooling mods, and hellcat oil pump should last another 120k just fine.

*edit - plus I’m upgrading the valve springs which is said to be another possible contributing factor.

 

[Black1500Ram]

Getting closer to tear down day.
Still need to order waterpump, timing cover gasket and crank seal, crank bolt, cam bolt, coolant, timing chain, timing tensioner, timing guide (buying next paycheck) and looking to source the valve spring compressor tool locally to borrow /rent.

Hoping to get everything done weekend of 10/22. Anything I’m missing in post 128 that I should have got the job?

Gonna drop and flush coolant, plan on draining only enough oil to prime the engine and reus what’s currently in the engine as the break-in oil (50mi) since it’s redline with less than 2k miles, then change for new redline.

Swapping the 50psi bypass spring over from my oem pump into the hellcat unless I can find a new one.

Bought a spray pump to prime the engine, need to buy the Barb fitting.

Watched these videos for tear down, assembly, and prime:

Disassembly
More disassembly and reassemble
Prime engine before start

Plan off attack:
• open gas cap
• lift front end, remove front wheels
• disconnect battery
• disconnect exhaust manifolds front cats
• remove engine cover
• remove air intake
• remove fans, serp belt, alternator, tensioner, crank pulley
• drain coolant & remove radiator / hoses
• remove foam stuff
• remove alternator
• remove waterpump / thermostat
• disconnect / remove fuel rails
• remove intake manifold
• remove more foam
• remove coil packs
• • remove valve covers
• remove rocker assembly
• remove pushrods
• remove heads
• clean block surface with scuff pad / vacuum
• remove lifters
• remove timing cover
• remove oil pump
• remove timing chain tensioner, guide, phaser, chain
• disconnect ac condenser to create space (I’m not draining ac system)
• remove camshaft

 

[Black1500Ram]

Assembly:

• lube new cam shaft and install
• install new timing chain, phaser, guide, tensioner
• install primed hellcat oil pump
• install timing cover gasket, crank seal and cover
• install valve springs into heads
• swap manifolds to headers on removed cylinder heads
• double check spark plug torque / indexing
• lube and install lifters
• place head gaskets
• install heads
• install exhaust pushrods making sure they seat
• Install exhaust rocker assembly
• install intake pushrods, making sure they seat
• install intake rocker assembly
• install new valve cover gaskets
• install valve covers
• install coil packs
• replace IM manifold foam
• install intake manifold
• install fuel rail
• install new water pump / gasket / thermostat
• install install tensioner, alternator, crank pulley, serp belt
• resecure ac condensor
• install radiator, fans, hoses
• install air intake
• fill radiator with 100% distilled water for flush
• install /connect battery.

 

[Wild one]

Assembly:

• lube new cam shaft and install
• install new timing chain, phaser, guide, tensioner
• install primed hellcat oil pump
• install timing cover gasket, crank seal and cover
• lube and install lifters
• place head gaskets
• install heads
• install exhaust pushrods making sure they seat
• Install exhaust rocker assembly
• install intake pushrods, making sure they seat
• install intake rocker assembly
• install new valve cover gaskets
• install valve covers
• install spark plugs
• install coil packs
• replace IM manifold foam
• install intake manifold
• install fuel rail
• install new water pump / gasket / thermostat
• install install tensioner, alternator, crank pulley, serp belt
• resecure ac condensor
• install radiator, fans, hoses
• install air intake
• install exhaust gaskets
• install exhaust headers
• fill radiator with 100% distilled water for flush
• install /connect battery.

Install the plugs while the heads are off and on the bench,they're way easier to do then,then after you've put the heads back on.If you're doing shorty headers,i'd also install them before putting the heads back on

 

[Black1500Ram]

Install the plugs while the heads are off and on the bench,they're way easier to do then,then after you've put the heads back on.If you're doing shorty headers,i'd also install them before putting the heads back on

I was thinking about that; Do I even need to take the spark plugs out then?

I did get shortys.