Here’s what I don’t understand

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Travelin Ram

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You guys are forgetting that most drivers are ignorant these days. Just look at all the videos of vehicles brought into shops with engines rattling and knocking with low oil. The drivers don’t even know to check the engine oil!

Personally, I wish they’d go all in and give us a fluid level sensor. On my Freightliner I can check the fluid level in the Allison 3000 sitting in the driver’s seat.
 

Wild one

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Wow, great prices at that distributor.

Traditionally, our Canadian prices are at least 50% more and this one is only $413.09 .
That extra 9 cents is a bother, though. LOL

Did you perform pre/post-testing to determine if you gained any improvements other than the requirement for more ATF?
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Tranny runs about 5 degrees cooler,but the 8 speeds with their thermostats are pretty tight on keeping the fluid hot,even with a deeper finned aluminium pan. After i blew up the first 8 speed in my truck,is when i put the PPE pan on,as i'd rather do a fluid change on a yearly basis,then buy and install another 8 speed,lol.My truck see's more abuse then most as it spends alot of time at the dragstrip giving hellcats fits,and puts down 572 lb-ft at the tires on the dyno,well exceeding the 8HP70's 516 lb-ft rating at the crank,so i change tranny fluid in it every spring
 

RamDiver

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Tranny runs about 5 degrees cooler,but the 8 speeds with their thermostats are pretty tight on keeping the fluid hot,even with a deeper finned aluminium pan. After i blew up the first 8 speed in my truck,is when i put the PPE pan on,as i'd rather do a fluid change on a yearly basis,then buy and install another 8 speed,lol.My truck see's more abuse then most as it spends alot of time at the dragstrip giving hellcats fits,and puts down 572 lb-ft at the tires on the dyno,well exceeding the 8HP70's 516 lb-ft rating at the crank,so i change tranny fluid in it every spring

Thanks for the report, it was what I expected other than your shaming of vehicles at the strip. :cool:

Do you have any pics of your machine spanking Hellcats?

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Wild one

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Thanks for the report, it was what I expected other than your shaming of vehicles at the strip. :cool:

Do you have any pics of your machine spanking Hellcats?

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Got video's but i can't post them on here,but there's a few guys who've seen the video's.The truck will outrun most stock 707/717 horse Kitties to about the 1,000 ft mark,then they'll catch it and run it down,but if they're sleeping on the light,they're scrambling to catch it by the top end timers,lol
 

indept

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That's the real question you want to ask? How about why these twits designed or were even allowed to design a transmission that you need a two video process to check the fluid as opposed to us spoiled guys that get a dip stick. The 8 speed transmission is a perfect example of why everything is broken these days. Create a transmission that operates HOTTER, like wdf, say you need a special pao fluid that costs an arm and a leg but when you peel apart that onion the zf fluid is no better then generic tranny fluid on the stat sheet, have the filter and the pan be one so everytime you want to change the filter you need to change the pan as well, have a process that I would wager most people can't/wont do just to check the fluid level, call it lifetime fluid yeah give me a break if it runs hotter how can you dare call it a lifetime fill? When you buy a Mercedes you expect this kind of bs, but when you buy a pick-up guys are supposed to be able to work on it without being a technician. I am embarrassed for the people who design these things. Like everything else going on, every single thing is a self inflicted wound. You are supposed to build long lasting trust with your customer base not lose it with every stupid decision. end rant, I am in a mood today
Burla
You know exactly why they design it that way, if they give us a dipstick we will pour maple syrup down it. Don't tell me you haven't done this before, we all have, so that's the reason for this.
:happy175:
 

Sherman Bird

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Burla, You forgot to mention ...the pan & filter made of plastic, great for the envronment. And not deep enough to make grandma's apple-crisp!? LOL. They could used a 2" deep, steel panlike all pickup truck transmissions before it, and draw off the bottom which would resolve the finicky fluid level issues. And like you say, a dipstick. I'm surprised nobody has come out with a dipstick conversion or B/T level device to put on Ram trucks. Or have they?



Great way to word it! These are probably designed/built/tested, level. There are probably other equipment/vehicles (like heavy trucks or construction equipment), as well as sedans and maybe even FWD cars, which use the ZF transmission which may well sit level. Each mfgr has to set a 'standard' and I would assume they chose 'level' as it's the easiest for most service places/techs (across the globe) to understand ...for anyone who has a $3 torpedo level. But one more step for maintenance. It would be terrible if a guy had a transmission with a slow leak that needed regular testing.
Do you know the reason there is NO dip stick? I mean, some shave-tail engineer didn't just wake up at 2 in the morning and have a moment of clairvoyant inspiration and declare "I think I'll devise a dip-stick free transmission"!

Fact is, the VAST majority of people just CAN'T or WON'T read and FOLLOW instructions. Hell, man, we even had a huge sign in the machine shop where I first worked out of high school (Oil field related place) which said "When all else fails, read the instructions"!

The unspoken in that quote is that anyone might want to follow the instructions!

Read up on the PROPER procedure to check transmission fluid levels on a 30 year old vehicle WITH a dipstick. There were 2 VERY explicit and crystal clear levels to pay attention to. "COLD" level and "Operation Temperature" (hot) level.

How many people do you think actually followed the very clear instructions about these very different fluid levels? It wasn't many. They generally had the "more is better" mind set. Nothing could be farther from true, germane to automatic transmission filling.

Why is proper level of fluid in a transmission so darned critical? Here's why: The rotating gear train is spinning a various high speeds just a small distance above the fluid. Frequently, an uninformed DIY'er would check his fluid on a clearly marked dipstick first thing in the AM with a cold vehicle. On one side, there was a scale for cold, and the other side, there was the HOT operation scale, and they were very different in level. When cold, the fluid was barely on the stick and appear low. BUT, the cold scale showed plenty; the hot side showed VERY low.... keep in mind the vehicle just was started stone cold.

Transmission fluid expands greatly with temperature. What's the real issue, and how does this corelate to no dipstick as opposed to having one? When many people saw the perceived low level due to so little showing on the dipstick, they added to the "Full Hot" mark in spite of the fluid and vehicle's cold status. When an over-filled transmission's fluid expands, the fluid rises quite a lot and gets whipped by the spinning gear train, very much as a kitchen mixer. This would froth the fluid into a foamy mixture of air and fluid. Getting back to Pascal's law of hydraulics, you cannot compress a fluid, but you CAN compress air.

Just like in a brake system full of air, a transmission cannot apply components hydraulically in an efficient manner... this leads to lowered pressure, and results in burned out clutches, destroyed bearings, etc.

One of THE most expensive warranty claims to pay for ALL automotive manufacturers is a transmission claim. GM was whining pretty consistently about warranty claims costs back in the 90's, and they picked on us transmission guys with vigor. The research I was privvy to in those days proved that a VERY high percentage of root cause trans failures was over temperature due to fluid frothing, due to overfilling.

You've NO idea how many customers would seek me out in my service bay at the dealer and ask me where the transmission dipstick was locate on the first dipstick free cars of those days (The GM 4T40E was one of the very first).

Warranty claims on transmissions declined after the dipstick-free units came out. I hope this is helpful!
 

Sherman Bird

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Wow, that pan looks pretty sweet. And $320 isn't too bad for what is and only $20 extra for a brushed or black finish. I'd gladly get one if you were paying. :cool:

View attachment 517398

View attachment 517400

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"Hey Honey! Come crawl under the truck and look at the pretty, 320 dollar trans pan I just installed"! I don't know about you, but my wife isn't going to get under any vehicle, and she'd likely think that 320 dollars could be spent on foo-foo items instead! Come to think, though, perhaps it will entertain the thief as he is sawing off the Cats! I'm just teasing, but you get the drift! Peace!
 

gofishn

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That's the real question you want to ask? How about why these twits designed or were even allowed to design a transmission that you need a two video process to check the fluid as opposed to us spoiled guys that get a dip stick. The 8 speed transmission is a perfect example of why everything is broken these days. Create a transmission that operates HOTTER, like wdf, say you need a special pao fluid that costs an arm and a leg but when you peel apart that onion the zf fluid is no better then generic tranny fluid on the stat sheet, have the filter and the pan be one so everytime you want to change the filter you need to change the pan as well, have a process that I would wager most people can't/wont do just to check the fluid level, call it lifetime fluid yeah give me a break if it runs hotter how can you dare call it a lifetime fill? When you buy a Mercedes you expect this kind of bs, but when you buy a pick-up guys are supposed to be able to work on it without being a technician. I am embarrassed for the people who design these things. Like everything else going on, every single thing is a self inflicted wound. You are supposed to build long lasting trust with your customer base not lose it with every stupid decision. end rant, I am in a mood today


Brath into teh paper bag. breath slowly and compeltely.

calm

think happy thoughts of old D100's and perfectly aligned tri power carbs.


calm

calm

lol
 

czervika

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Ok, Looong explanation: LOL

Transmission fluid level has always been critical on auto trannie's from the beginning. The range as everyone knows is ~ 1/2" or so, on the dipstick. There's a narrow range of tolerance due to the following reasons:

1) A quart is more than a "quart": What I mean by that is once the oil pan is bolted back onto the transmission, the valve body (or part of it anyway), filter etc, protrudes into the pan a fair amount taking up a lot of the available space in the oil pan. It's like putting a bunch of rocks in a coffee can, and it only takes a little water to fill it up. Vs if the can were empty. That's probably a lousy example but you get the idea: a quart makes more difference in overall level in the transmission than simply pouring a quart into an empty pan. Which is why in the old days it was printed on the dipstick "only add 1 pint" ..something like that.

2) Foaming/Starving: Transmission shifting works by valves routing hydraulic fluid accordingly, and using hydraulic fluid pressure ..a lot of it, to push servo's and hold clutch packs tightly together (so the clutches grip/hold).

Foaming: If the fluid becomes too high (overfilled), transmission fluid can get into the rotating parts/gears, etc higher up inside the transmission. If that happens, it can lead to foaming or 'frothing' of the fluid. Think of a stack of bubbles in a bath and how delicate they are. Foam & bubbles contain a lot of air which is not compressible (like fluid), and if some (even a little) gets sucked into the areas which require pressure to hold clutches 'tight' ....suddenly can't hold the clutches tight. So slipping or surging can occur.

Starving: Just as it sounds. If the fluid becomes excessively low, there is the possibility of air getting sucked into the transmission pump, valve body and rest of system. Just like above, air isn't compressible and there won't be enough pressure to hold the clutch packs as tight as they need to be. And transmissions operate in the range of 150-350 even 400# (PSI) range. So a little air can lead to reduced pressure (clutch slipping). That could lead to lubrication problems and burned clutches, things like that, because they're normally 'bathed' in tranny fluid, if not rectified soon enough.

That's the real ROOT reason transmission fluid needs to be set at a pretty 'tight' range. And having the transmission pan 'level' ensures the fluid is at the right level. Don't run them too high, or low and you'll have a lot of happy miles/KM's!!

Hope it helps :favorites13:

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And these days, with our litigious society, the lawyers correctly assume people are too stupid to check the fluid with the vehicle in neutral, as ma mopar does things, without killing themselves or someone else.
 

Jeepwalker

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Yep! Agree with you guys. Vehicles have become so dependable, the vast majority of drivers don't have/need mechaical knowledge or maintenance skills. It's just a transportation appliance.

To me ...driving a vehicle is being in a symphony of precision-made parts each doing their part making beautiful music! :hands:


...till it goes "clunk!", of course! LOL
 

Sherman Bird

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Yep! Agree with you guys. Vehicles have become so dependable, the vast majority of drivers don't have/need mechaical knowledge or maintenance skills. It's just a transportation appliance.

To me ...driving a vehicle is being in a symphony of precision-made parts each doing their part making beautiful music! :hands:


...till it goes "clunk!", of course! LOL
"Clunk".... maybe, but "BOOM!?" Now THAT'S really something!
 

indept

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And these days, with our litigious society, the lawyers correctly assume people are too stupid to check the fluid with the vehicle in neutral, as ma mopar does things, without killing themselves or someone else.
Years ago a guy at work was in the parking lot working on his car. Not sure what he was trying to do but he started the car by puting a screwdriver across the starter solenoid. It started and since it had stalled initially in gear the car went forward running his foot over & crashed into another car. So there is some validity to your statement.
First time I've ever heard first hand about someone running themselves over.
:happy175:
 

Wild one

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Years ago a guy at work was in the parking lot working on his car. Not sure what he was trying to do but he started the car by puting a screwdriver across the starter solenoid. It started and since it had stalled initially in gear the car went forward running his foot over & crashed into another car. So there is some validity to your statement.
First time I've ever heard first hand about someone running themselves over.
:happy175:
I had a buddy who decided to pull his driveshaft on his old Ford F100 on his driveway that had a pretty decent incline,after he pried the back u-joint out of the rear yoke,the truck took off down his driveway,and across the street into the park across the street.Only thing that saved him was the truck was on 35's and he just happened to be laying far enough off to the side the axle tubes rolled over him with-out a scratch,he's never done that since,lol
 

Jeepwalker

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Aaaahh the floodgates have been opened for juicy idiot stories! ha ha..


That guy who ran over his foot probably had an older ford with a starter solenoid on the Pass inner fender. You jumped the 'switch-side' of the starter solenoid to the (hot) batt cable side (right next to it). Oldest trick in the book. The 'book' should have reminded him to wear steel toes.. :)
 

indept

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Aaaahh the floodgates have been opened for juicy idiot stories! ha ha..


That guy who ran over his foot probably had an older ford with a starter solenoid on the Pass inner fender. You jumped the 'switch-side' of the starter solenoid to the (hot) batt cable side (right next to it). Oldest trick in the book. The 'book' should have reminded him to wear steel toes.. :)
That guy wasn't the sharpest bowling ball In the bunch.
 

Jeepwalker

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We had a neighbor farmer when I grew up who jumped a tractor starter and it drove right through the block wall of a dairy barn. It was something like a JD 4020. Lucky for him he 'just' managed to crouch down under the axle as it went over him. Happened to not be much of a loadbearing section of wall. Narrowly escaped a Darwin award.

Yeah guys. Be careful. Use jackstands, and the rest of the 'best practices' for safety...
 

Jeepwalker

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Side story: I dinged my finger up pretty bad a week ago. Nothing serious ...but didn't look pretty at first. My buddy said "email me a picture of your finger!" I did a google search for "Mangled finger" ...to be a wise-guy and send him a terrible picture. Man!! Don't do a search like that unless you want to see some seriously terrible cut-off finger pics!! Great reminder to be extra-cautious!!!
 

gofishn

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One Time, in Band Camp .......
 
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