Cam/Lifter failures in relation to oil level

In the threads I've read about cam/lifter failures,never once have I seen the question asked concerning the oil level in the crankcase.I've seen all the questions asking what oil was used and how often the oil was changed etc,but nobody asks about the oil level and how it was maintained ,ie: was the oil level maintained at the full mark or was the oil level let drop down a quart before it was topped up etc. As far as I know the cam lobe and lifter wheel still get their lubrication the old fashioned way like a flat tappet cam,which is by splash/spray off the rotating crankshaft. If the oil level has a habit of being down some from full,there's less oil spray making it to the cam lobe,then if the oil level is maintained at the full mark all the time.Just wondering if that might also add to the failure rate of the cams and lifters,albit it might be a very small contributing factor,but I wonder if it still might be a factor to consider.

Shouldn't matter. The 1 qt down won't drop it anywhere near the bottom of the sump feed

It’s pressurized oil not splash lubrication. Cam bearings are fed from the main bearings. So cam bearings then feed oil to cam/lifters/pushrods etc.

Tach_tech said:

It’s pressurized oil not splash lubrication. Cam bearings are fed from the main bearings. So cam bearings then feed oil to cam/lifters/pushrods etc.

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Yes the internal parts of the lifters / pushrods and cam bearings are fed pressurized oil,but the cam lobe and the roller wheel are still lubed by splash,and are not fed any pressurized oil .It's the wheel itself and cam lobe that give the trouble usually,not the internal workings of the lifter.I know years ago the rule of thumb was run an engine a couple quarts low for drag racing to mininiumize drag due to windage,but for day to day driving it was always recommended to maintain the crankcase oil level at the full mark to promote camshaft longevity. I had a couple engine builders tell me that back in my younger days,and I think it might still apply when it comes to keeping the cam lobes and lifter rollers happy ,they still need splash lubrication to get any oil. It's just a thought I had,but I know I keep my crankcases oil levels at the full mark,with the idea it'll help keep the camshaft smiling more,lol

Tach_tech said:

It’s pressurized oil not splash lubrication. Cam bearings are fed from the main bearings. So cam bearings then feed oil to cam/lifters/pushrods etc.

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Tach, do you know where the oil injectors are located in our 6.4 HD engines. How many are there and what do they point to or what is their purpose? Thanks Fitz

Wild one said:

Yes the internal parts of the lifters / pushrods and cam bearings are fed pressurized oil,but the cam lobe and the roller wheel are still lubed by splash,and are not fed any pressurized oil .It's the wheel itself and cam lobe that give the trouble usually,not the internal workings of the lifter.I know years ago the rule of thumb was run an engine a couple quarts low for drag racing to mininiumize drag due to windage,but for day to day driving it was always recommended to maintain the crankcase oil level at the full mark to promote camshaft longevity. I had a couple engine builders tell me that back in my younger days,and I think it might still apply when it comes to keeping the cam lobes and lifter rollers happy ,they still need splash lubrication to get any oil. It's just a thought I had,but I know I keep my crankcases oil levels at the full mark,with the idea it'll help keep the camshaft smiling more,lol

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Sorry, misread your original post. You are correct, the lobes are fed just by splash lubrication.

Fitz87gn said:

Tach, do you know where the oil injectors are located in our 6.4 HD engines. How many are there and what do they point to or what is their purpose? Thanks Fitz

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The oil squirters are mounted on the block, at the bottom of the piston bore. They squirt oil onto the back of the piston.

Tach_tech said:

The oil squirters are mounted on the block, at the bottom of the piston bore. They squirt oil onto the back of the piston.

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Ok now we know. That would suggest that they were designed to make sure the wrist pins and the piston skirts are properly/well lubricated.

Fitz87gn said:

Ok now we know. That would suggest that they were designed to make sure the wrist pins and the piston skirts are properly/well lubricated.

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They’re actuslly designed to keep the piston cool, which helps lower combustion temperatures.

Tach_tech said:

They’re actuslly designed to keep the piston cool, which helps lower combustion temperatures.

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Thanks Tach, very good to know.

Tach_tech said:

Sorry, misread your original post. You are correct, the lobes are fed just by splash lubrication.

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Both the lobes and roller are lubricated by splash lubrication,as there's no pressurized oil fed to the lifters needle bearings,they depend on splash to keep the rollers bearings actually lubed to.The more I think about it,the more i'm starting to wonder if the oil level in the crankcase might be more important then we think. Engines that spend a lot of time idling,are more inclined to wipe the cam lobe out sooner then later,and that directly correlates to the amount of oil splash making it to the cam lobe and lifter roller itself.

Wild one said:

Both the lobes and roller are lubricated by splash lubrication,as there's no pressurized oil fed to the lifters needle bearings,they depend on splash to keep the rollers bearings actually lubed to.The more I think about it,the more i'm starting to wonder if the oil level in the crankcase might be more important then we think. Engines that spend a lot of time idling,are more inclined to wipe the cam lobe out sooner then later,and that directly correlates to the amount of oil splash making it to the cam lobe and lifter roller itself.

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Could also be that the splashing action is not efficient enough at low rpms to keep adequate oil going where it needs to. I bet FCA already knows that.

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Wild one said:

Both the lobes and roller are lubricated by splash lubrication,as there's no pressurized oil fed to the lifters needle bearings,they depend on splash to keep the rollers bearings actually lubed to.The more I think about it,the more i'm starting to wonder if the oil level in the crankcase might be more important then we think. Engines that spend a lot of time idling,are more inclined to wipe the cam lobe out sooner then later,and that directly correlates to the amount of oil splash making it to the cam lobe and lifter roller itself.

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That’s the way it’s been forever as far as a cam in block engines are concerned, so it’s hard to say if it’s really an issue.

I get what you’re saying and its entirely plausible. I don’t have any doubts that maintenance issues are a sure way to experience the issue.

Although it seems to be extended idling is the biggest issue. So it could very well be during extended idling the amount of oil actually splashed up to the cam lobes isn’t sufficient enough to properly lube the roller portion of the lifter, causing premature failure.

Interesting discussion guys--Thanks
Jay

I’ve thought about it a lot and lack of lubrication to the bearings in the roller lifter (creating higher friction) seems like the likey cause of cam failures. If the roller in the lifter does match the speed of the cam lobe, the roller will slip or skid on the cam lobe causing premature wear on the cam lobe and lifter roller. The pictures of the cam and lifters I’ve seen, the cam and roller in the lifter we’re worn (or a flat spot on the lifter roller, which means the roller locked up). The heat treating process for the cam and lifter roller only hardens the surface and a certain depth into the metal. When the roller in the lifter slips or skids on the cam lobe, the wear starts, how long it takes to ruin the roller in lifter and cam depends how bad the slippage is. Becuase the surface is hardened, it would take a while to wear through that. But when the cam lobe and lifter roller finally wears through the surface hardness, then the wear is greatly accelerated. Once the channel from the roller slippage is worn into the cam lobe is deep enough for the raise metal on the cam lobe to contact the folk (u channel) that holds the lifter roller, that creates the metal shaving that are found when the engine is inspected. So it seems like the roller in the lifter is not matching the speed of the cam lobe, this could be lack of spring pressure on the lifter, but I think lack of lubrication to the bearings in the roller lifter is the cause.

Musky Mike said:

I’ve thought about it a lot and lack of lubrication to the bearings in the roller lifter (creating higher friction) seems like the likey cause of cam failures. If the roller in the lifter does match the speed of the cam lobe, the roller will slip or skid on the cam lobe causing premature wear on the cam lobe and lifter roller. The pictures of the cam and lifters I’ve seen, the cam and roller in the lifter we’re worn (or a flat spot on the lifter roller, which means the roller locked up). The heat treating process for the cam and lifter roller only hardens the surface and a certain depth into the metal. When the roller in the lifter slips or skids on the cam lobe, the wear starts, how long it takes to ruin the roller in lifter and cam depends how bad the slippage is. Becuase the surface is hardened, it would take a while to wear through that. But when the cam lobe and lifter roller finally wears through the surface hardness, then the wear is greatly accelerated. Once the channel from the roller slippage is worn into the cam lobe is deep enough for the raise metal on the cam lobe to contact the folk (u channel) that holds the lifter roller, that creates the metal shaving that are found when the engine is inspected. So it seems like the roller in the lifter is not matching the speed of the cam lobe, this could be lack of spring pressure on the lifter, but I think lack of lubrication to the bearings in the roller lifter is the cause.

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Another question that's never asked ,but I think should be asked,are what gears are in the truck. Are the 3.21 geared trucks more likely to have issues,or do the 3.92 geared trucks have more issues. Everything being equal the 3.92 trucks are revving roughly 22% more then a comparable 3.21 geared truck.Taking into account the cam turns at 1/2 the speed of the crank,the cam is only turning 11% more rpm,but it'll be picking up more splash lubrication from the crank that's turning 22% faster. There's a question for the engineers on here,how many more gallons of oil are splashed on the cam lobes and lifter wheel in an hour by the deeper 3.92 gears,compared to the slower turning 3.21 gears. Going back to the old flat tappet days when installing a new cam,the rule was fill the crankcase to the full mark,and as soon as the engine fired,get it up to 2500 rpm ASAP to throw lots of oil onto the cam lobe and lifter face to facilitate proper cam break-in. In reality the 3.92 geared trucks will be cruising down the road 22% closer to that old number of 2500 rpm then a comparable 3.21 truck. These are questions I've never seen asked in relation to the cams going south,but i'm wondering if they should be asked. I'm also of the belief Ma Mopar grinds their suppliers pretty hard on price ,so the suppliers try to cut as many corners as possible,and maybe the cams aren't hardened as well as they could be due to cost cutting measures,that along with a lack of splash lubrication might be something that goes hand in hand in regards to the life expectancy of the cams. Just a couple thoughts I've had,probably out to lunch,but i'm not so sure I am,lol.

If the real cause is low amount of lubrication at idle, rear end ratio means nothing.

And I do think that is the bigger cause....I have the 3.21 axle but just 100 rpm off idle and the oil pressure will go from low 40s to just about 50. I really think the idle should be raised just a bit and that would make sure there is plenty of flow and pressure through the system. My guess is that idle RPM is so low right now because CAFE.

chrisbh17 said:

If the real cause is low amount of lubrication at idle, rear end ratio means nothing.

And I do think that is the bigger cause....I have the 3.21 axle but just 100 rpm off idle and the oil pressure will go from low 40s to just about 50. I really think the idle should be raised just a bit and that would make sure there is plenty of flow and pressure through the system. My guess is that idle RPM is so low right now because CAFE.

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Oil pressure has nothing to do with the splash lubrication to the cam lobes and lifter wheel.Oil is fed by pressure to the internal workings of the lifter/pushrods etc.,but there is no such thing as pressurized oil being fed to the cam lobe or lifter wheel,that's all done strictly by the oil being flung off the crank.Whether bringing the idle rpm up by a 100 rpm,will do anything to the life expectancy of the cam is tough to make a judgement call on,but it probably wouldn't hurt that's for sure. If the crankcase is down a quart of oil,combined with a low idle rpm,means there's not going to be as much oil being flung onto the cam lobe as what is needed to keep the lifter roller from seizing,and consequently taking out the lobe. Hemi's that do a lot of idling do seem to have more issues ,so maybe bringing the idle up slightly might help,but there's also lots of guys who've had cam issues on trucks that have very little idling time on them,so in regards to that fact,maybe the rear gearing comes into play more.This is all speculation,but I think these questions should be asked more,about how much oil is usually in the crankcase,and the rear gearing of the truck,along with the standard questions of what oil was used and the length of time between oil changes.

chrisbh17 said:

If the real cause is low amount of lubrication at idle, rear end ratio means nothing.

And I do think that is the bigger cause....I have the 3.21 axle but just 100 rpm off idle and the oil pressure will go from low 40s to just about 50. I really think the idle should be raised just a bit and that would make sure there is plenty of flow and pressure through the system. My guess is that idle RPM is so low right now because CAFE.

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Both my wifes 2016 5.7 Challenger with 12,000 miles and my 2014 truck with 41,000miles and a relocated filter idle at 49/50psi hot,and will both go to 56 psi when revved up to 1500+ rpm,neither one idles in the low 40's for pressure,but both are on 5W-30 Redline with RP filters

Wild one said:

Both my wifes 2016 5.7 Challenger with 12,000 miles and my 2014 truck with 41,000miles and a relocated filter idle at 49/50psi hot,and will both go to 56 psi when revved up to 1500+ rpm,neither one idles in the low 40's for pressure,but both are on 5W-30 Redline with RP filters

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I did the filter relocation on 14 Ram 1500 and fully warmed up at idle it sits at 46-48 PSI using 5w30 Redline or PUP with an RP filter.