2500 vs 3500 Payload

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mtofell

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People are getting confused about what the law is and what it means. There is no law that says that a 3/4 ton truck HAS to stay below 10,000 lbs. The law simply says that to be considered a class 2B truck, it has to be at or below 10,000 lbs.

For a variety of reasons, manufacturers chose to sell trucks in that 2B class;
lots of HOAs don't allow class 3 trucks,
some states consider class 3 trucks to be commercial, therefore they have to follow commercial regs,
class 3 trucks typically have a higher registration cost,
lots of highways don't allow vehicles over 10,000 lbs in the left lanes,
etc.

For that reason, manufacturers sell the class 2B (3/4 ton) truck to fit that market. Its FAR cheaper to simply "derate" the 3/4 ton truck on paper, rather than actually derate the truck in reality. Rather than R&R slightly cheaper parts, its easier and cheaper to use the same parts (and not stock twice as much) and simply change the numbers on the sticker. While Ford and GM only removed a spring pack in the rear, Ram decided to listen to customers who wanted a better ride. Ram put coils (with slightly less carrying capacity) on the 2500. The 6.4 Ram is rated to carry 900 lbs more than the Cummins, so Ram is pretty confident that the coils will carry that extra 900 lbs over and above what the Cummins equipped truck is rated to carry.

Great info.... another one I stumbled upon in my state (Oregon) has to do with tire chains in the mountain passes. A truck over 10,000 GVWR (so a 3500) needs to put on chains while a 10,000# and under GVWR (so a 2500) can get by with "traction devices" which is tires or even 4WD. Pretty crazy that essentially the same truck has two different rules but I guess they have to draw the line somewhere. All I know is if I had a 3500 I might have to get on Ebay and get a set of 2500 logos for driving over the mountain pass.
 

Croz

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Basically you are bound by what every number you max out first. Yes the 3/4 ton has good axle weight ratings, but the total weight of the truck cannot exceed 10,000 lbs ( as stated previously). That's why if I was buying a diesel I would need to go to a 1 ton. With how heavy these trucks the manufactures are making a 3/4 diesel almost obsolete. It is fine for a conventional trailer (bumper pull), but not enough payload left over for a 5th wheel. Eg. I have a '18 CCSB with the 6.4 hemi, my payload is 2990 lbs with the same axle ratings of 5500/6500 lbs
 

mtofell

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Basically you are bound by what every number you max out first.

And this is where the never ending arguments being...... "Bound" by whom?

Everyone of the badge carrying members of the weight police on RV message forums swear their neighbor's hairdresser's son's soccer coach is in prison for towing while exceeding his GVWR but no one has ever been able to offer a single verifiable case where someone got in any trouble. Everything that matters in the world of towing/hauling goes by axle weights - FAWR, RAWR, etc.

I have to think if there were such a landmark case/example it would be all over the net (like the Moss/Magnuson warranty thing).

There is actually finally some logic on the horizon. I recently read that some manufacturers (I want to say Chevy/GMC) have upped the GVWR on 2500 trucks above the longstanding artificially low 10K rating. Something more in line with what the sum total of the axles can carry (sorry if this has already been mentioned in this thread - I can't remember and don't want to reread the whole thing right now).
 

TMyers

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Sometimes, folks overlook the more important thing than the towing or GVWR, and that's getting it stopped. If you max out your GVWR but are still within the axle weight, I'm personally fine with this. The axle has the brakes which is factored in. This doesn't come into play much for trailer brakes but for the guy who buys the bed camper or has overloaded cargo, he's relying 100% on his truck's brakes to get him stopped. Not just at a stoplight but in an emergency as well. This is what causes wrecks!

All of this is factored in as a truck is engineered. The same 2500 truck is sold in the Plains states as in the Rockies. The "Worst Case" scenario most always be considered by the manufacture.
 

SouthTexan

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Both front and rear axle assemblies(including brakes, minus suspension) are the same on the 3500 SRW and 2500. The only difference is the rear suspension on the 2500 which is rated to carry 500 lbs less according to it's GAWR(which includes the suspension and brakes in its rating) while the front suspension is the exact same with the same rating.
 
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SouthTexan

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Here is a piece of trivia. Prior to 2007, all SRW 3500 trucks had a GVWR of up to 9,900 lbs and were in the same 2B trucks class as the 2500 or other "3/4 ton" trucks.
 

Tdecoursey

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So I am a bit confused. We all know what the payload is for a 2014 Ram 2500 as its easily calculable by the inside the door. So the question is, what is the payload it’s really capable of handling. Hard #’s. Same as a 3500? Not what Ram says for liability purposes but what it really can handle?
 

mtofell

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If you're willing to go past GVWR (which is where payload is generally derived from) look at the axle weights (FAWR/RAWR) - both should be listed on your door sticker. The front is pretty static regardless of the trailer and I can't even remember what mine is. The rear is 6500# on my 2014 2500. I'm usually about 1000# under the RAWR when I hit my payload max of 3000# with my 5th wheel. My tires are rated up to 7200# so I definitely have extra capacity there.

To answer your question directly, the 2500 in 2014 is essentially the same truck as the SRW 3500 (brakes, frame, axles, etc.).

I'm most cognizant of axle (and tire) weights and personally wouldn't get any closer to them than I already am. I'm fine being a bit over GVWR but try to stay close to it. You'll find this debate stirs up slightly more fire than politics at Thanksgiving dinner :)
 

Tdecoursey

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My thoughts is the rating on the door is simply what’s left over from 10000 lbs taxed weight. If you have a gawr of 6500 and your rear weighs 3180 which is what my 2014 2500 Mega cab longhorn weighs than you clearly have 3000 lbs to work with. My tires are rated at 4000 with 80 psi so that’s not an issue.
Just taking the numbers on the door adding the front and rear gawr is 12500 - 10000 still gives you 2500 to play with.
The only drawback is if the payload police pull you over and see 1580 on the door and you have a 2300 hitch weight on your 5th wheel, prepare to pay the man. But I don’t know how often that really happens.
 

Tdecoursey

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I am wondering if you have air suspension or coils on yours? I have air, and had 2200 lbs of dirt in the back last week redoing my lawn. The suspension leveled fine, no alarms, so I am guessing the air bag system probably uses the rear Gawr as it’s gauge ???
 

Jimmy07

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The only drawback is if the payload police pull you over and see 1580 on the door and you have a 2300 hitch weight on your 5th wheel, prepare to pay the man. But I don’t know how often that really happens.
It would never happen because there is no law in the US concerning being over payload. Not one person has EVER been able to quote or post an ordinance about this.
 

Nickx86

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Speaking of the 3/4 ton 10k limit, found this surfing on the old internet. Looks like someone decided to say let’s forget the 10k and give consumers real GVW based on front and rear axle capacity. I know it’s a Chevy and yes it’s 2500 but I’m wondering if Ram and Ford will eventually remove the 10k on 3/4 ton. Then again I’m sure they won’t cause that means 1 ton SRW would be useless

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SouthTexan

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Speaking of the 3/4 ton 10k limit, found this surfing on the old internet. Looks like someone decided to say let’s forget the 10k and give consumers real GVW based on front and rear axle capacity. I know it’s a Chevy and yes it’s 2500 but I’m wondering if Ram and Ford will eventually remove the 10k on 3/4 ton. Then again I’m sure they won’t cause that means 1 ton SRW would be useless

View attachment 177247


Manufacturers won't stop offering a 10k GVWR trucks due to how many fleet buyers want them because of federal and local CMV laws. I can guarantee that even if GM is offering a 11,350 GVWR 2500, they still offer a de-rated 10k GVWR version for fleet buyers. Commercial vehicles above 10k GVWR require log books and a hole host of added costly regulations. This is why Ford offers an option to de-rate the F350 from 12k to 10k GVWR for fleet buyers.

Re-rating GVWR: Why and How it's Done

Ram seems to take another approach by just make a more capable 2500 and making them all 10k GVWR for these type of customers. It looks like GM is taking almost the same approach of making a more capable 2500, but giving them the GVWR the truck is capable of for non-fleet buyers and de-rating them for fleet buyers. Ironically, this GM 2500 has a RGAWR that is only 100 lbs more than my 2014 Ram 2500 and I would bet that my FGAWR is higher than the IFS front end on this GM 2500 as well.
 

wyo2track

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Ram seems to take another approach by just make a more capable 2500 and making them all 10k GVWR for these type of customers. It looks like GM is taking almost the same approach of making a more capable 2500, but giving them the GVWR the truck is capable of for non-fleet buyers and de-rating them for fleet buyers. Ironically, this GM 2500 has a RGAWR that is only 100 lbs more than my 2014 Ram 2500 and I would bet that my FGAWR is higher than the IFS front end on this GM 2500 as well.

I saw this too in the TFL video. Its an interesting twist GM has done because I wonder how it will affect RAMs' and FORDs' ratings in the future. Can Ram/Ford just slap a new sticker on their non-fleet truck doors with stated higher GVWR or will they have to totally redesign their rear suspension to handle the extra rating.? Can RAM's coil rear handle another 1100# or Fords? They've tuned the suspension for the 10K GVWR even though the axle ratings are large enough to handle additional loads. I think for non-fleet customers this is a good thing; instead of having to jump up into the 3500 segment if you have a 5th wheel and a diesel...going from 1700# payload up to 3000# is a significant jump. RAM dealers around the intermountain west seem to have a good selection between 2500/3500, but go to a FORD dealer and F250 diesel selection is a 1/4 to 1/3 of what the F350 selection is because the F250 suspension is setup so soft for the ride. Good for GM to stir things up in the non-fleet market.
 

U&A

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It would never happen because there is no law in the US concerning being over payload. Not one person has EVER been able to quote or post an ordinance about this.

This is one thing that had never been discussed. I dont know for a fact but also believe it to be true. Now if you are doing it under a DOT number that is different. But personal use. They would have to ticket you for something else. Like “ reckless driving” or something.


Sent while firmly grasping my redline lubed RAM [emoji231]
 
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