Eibach vs Bilstein, my opinion.

ram1500rsm · Apr 1, 2020

RamMan381 said:
Wow your thick headed.

We got here because you said that raising the clip on ride height adjustable struts does not put more preload on the springs........

Do you have anything positive to add to this thread? If not please leave

oh am i ? and do i have anything positive to add to this thread ? My god, i think anybody can judge for themselves on that. Remember the fake-news post? it starts form there. i've posted print screens to help a moron like you understand, it's obvious by now i won't succeed your fault not mine bro.

RamMan381 · Apr 1, 2020

ram1500rsm said:
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, what in there i didn't read ? Go back again to post #25. read it slow... Adjusting preload don't compress the spring..... What are we arguing now ? Lol

Think about what you just said.

Adding preload is literally the act of compressing the spring.

ram1500rsm · Apr 1, 2020

RamMan381 said:
Think about what you just said.

Adding preload is literally the act of compressing the spring.

So you discovered 2+2=4 ? yeeaahhhhhh :cheers:

Thinking about what i just said, among defining preload for you it seems, but regarding how you put it to use to a point...

From post#25
"Adjusting preload does not compress the spring. Adjusting preload will increase the eye to eye lenght of the shock, therefore lifting the vehicle higher. The vehicles weight is what makes the spring compress, so with no additional weight adjusting preload will not compress the spring. If the shock is maxed out and cannot extend any further, then yes, preload will cause the spring to compress"

From the article i posted #14
"Preload makes the bike sits higer or lower, it does not make the spring stiffer. So if someone tells you you should reduce your preload to make the bike feel less harsh, they probably don't have a clue..."

pacofortacos · Apr 1, 2020

I had 5100's on my truck - for a month!
Didn't like the handling or the ride - inferior to my stock Outdoorsman strut in every measure.
I wasn't lifting though, I was trying to drop the front a bit so I still had some rake when loaded.

I literally gave them away for free!

I have since found another brand that was equal to the OEM but allowed me to drop the front from 37.5" to 36.25".

I was not impressed with the 5100's at all - from the spindly weak shaft to the overall handling to the ride. They have a much thinner shaft than the OEM strut does - not a bit, significantly thinner.

Just my experience.

RamMan381 · Apr 1, 2020

ram1500rsm said:
oh am i ? and do i have anything positive to add to this thread ? My god, i think anybody can judge for themselves on that. Remember the fake-news post? it starts form there. i've posted print screens to help a moron like you understand, it's obvious by now i won't succeed your fault not mine bro.

ram1500rsm said:
So you discovered 2+2=4 ? yeeaahhhhhh

Thinking about what i just said, among defining preload for you it seems, but regarding how you put it to use to a point...

From post#25
"Adjusting preload does not compress the spring. Adjusting preload will increase the eye to eye lenght of the shock, therefore lifting the vehicle higher. The vehicles weight is what makes the spring compress, so with no additional weight adjusting preload will not compress the spring. If the shock is maxed out and cannot extend any further, then yes, preload will cause the spring to compress"

From the article i posted #14
"Preload makes the bike sits higer or lower, it does not make the spring stiffer. So if someone tells you you should reduce your preload to make the bike feel less harsh, they probably don't have a clue..."

Your quote from post 25 is completely wrong. Again, adding preload is the act of compressing the spring.

Your quote from article #15 is completely correct.

ram1500rsm · Apr 2, 2020

RamMan381 said:
Your quote from post 25 is completely wrong. Again, adding preload is the act of compressing the spring.

Hilary is that you ? , Wrong in what context ? Yes they will compress "unloaded" on the vice.

"Preload is the initial (pre) tension (load) on your springs before carrying the weight of the vehicle, Coilover spring preload is measured in inches, in other words, how many inches have you compressed the springs before applying weight" or if you prefer "Preload is a measurement of how much a spring is compressed at full extension of the shock"

All articles assume your struts or coilovers are mounted and doing what they're supposed to. preload is not changing the way the spring is compressing under load. The weight of the truck have done so already, and now that preload is helping you attain more or less lift.

But yeah lets argue about the sky being blue and 2+2=4, what do you want to argue about when the sky is blue and 2+2=4 ?

Meeks · Apr 2, 2020

Moving the clips on the 5100s does not change spring pre-load, it simply lengthens the entire strut/spring assembly. The fact that it adjusts the assembly length at a ratio of 1:1 confirms that there is no change in spring preload at any clip setting. It does lengthen the strut component of the strut/spring assembly, which lifts the vehicle.

It is not a coil over system where you can actually adjust the spring compression settings, which does impact the ride height AND preload.

RamMan381 · Apr 2, 2020

ram1500rsm said:
Hilary is that you ? , Wrong in what context ? Yes they will compress "unloaded" on the vice.

"Preload is the initial (pre) tension (load) on your springs before carrying the weight of the vehicle, Coilover spring preload is measured in inches, in other words, how many inches have you compressed the springs before applying weight" or if you prefer "Preload is a measurement of how much a spring is compressed at full extension of the shock"

All articles assume your struts or coilovers are mounted and doing what they're supposed to. preload is not changing the way the spring is compressing under load. The weight of the truck have done so already, and now that preload is helping you attain more or less lift.

But yeah lets argue about the sky being blue and 2+2=4, what do you want to argue about when the sky is blue and 2+2=4 ?

Your persistence in this thread is incredibly entertaining. Your anger and name calling is hilarious, let’s keep it going!

So can we agree yet that compressing the spring more during install adds preload? I can post some pictures on what effects spring preload has on suspension if you would like?

Ricks Ram · Apr 2, 2020

Meeks said:
Moving the clips on the 5100s does not change spring pre-load, it simply lengthens the entire strut/spring assembly. The fact that it adjusts the assembly length at a ratio of 1:1 confirms that there is no change in spring preload at any clip setting. It does lengthen the strut component of the strut/spring assembly, which lifts the vehicle.

It is not a coil over system where you can actually adjust the spring compression settings, which does impact the ride height AND preload.

Exactly!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

RamMan381 · Apr 2, 2020

Meeks said:
Moving the clips on the 5100s does not change spring pre-load, it simply lengthens the entire strut/spring assembly. The fact that it adjusts the assembly length at a ratio of 1:1 confirms that there is no change in spring preload at any clip setting. It does lengthen the strut component of the strut/spring assembly, which lifts the vehicle.

It is not a coil over system where you can actually adjust the spring compression settings, which does impact the ride height AND preload.

compressing the spring does not lengthen the strut assembly LOL.

Measure the extended length of the strut with spring on the bottom clip position.

Then measure the length of the strut with the spring on the top clip position.

It does not change the length of the strut assembly.....

ram1500rsm · Apr 2, 2020

Have somebody measured the free length of the factory coil ?
Have somebody measured the free length of the Eibach coil ?
Have somebody measured the Eibach strut fully extended ?

Hodge-XJ have measured the coil in the Bisltein 6112's so we know that one is 16" in length (i've added this to my shocks list)
https://www.ramforum.com/posts/1912351/

The 6112's are valved differently than the 5100's, but measure pretty much the same at 21.5", Hodge didn't measure compression but more likely is the same as the 5100.

Stockers are 21.6" extended, 5100's are 21.4 extended.
I don't know if the springs in the 6112's measure the same as the stockers,
Hodge is showing up a visual of both side by side, with the 6112's preloaded at their max height
https://www.ramforum.com/posts/1919237/

It'll be good to know what the Eibach strut measures fully extended, They seem to be valved differently. i think i've read people using the Eibach strut with the factory spring not complaining about the harsh on them at max height but my memory can be playing games

Falcon struts are 23" extended, 16.7 compresses and they use the factory coils.

King OE and Fox OE CO's are 22.5" extended and they're basically extended travel, but their up travel is 1" shorter as i think Crazy has indicated in a previous post. You sway bar won't allow you to use their full uptravel anyways but their bumpstops will protect your fenders from finding your 35's and 37's, Ive posted it i found 1/2" uptravel changing sway bar links from the SPmaxx stock length to the L's, that was with 315/70/17, with 37x12.5x17 i had to go back to the stock length ones. (i'm not lifted with brackets just a modest 2.75" lift)

King 2.5 OE CO's have 14" free length spring, 500lbs/inch spring rate linear
Thuren is using 600 lbs/inch 14" springs in their King 2.5 CO application.
Icon is using 13" free length, 650lbs/inch springs in the 2.5 COs
Fox 2.5 CO's from what i remember are using 14" and 600 lbs/inch springs

Ricks Ram · Apr 2, 2020

This whole discussion started because it was stated that moving the clip up on the 5100 shock will make the truck ride firmer and that is 100% false. Then people started chiming in about spring rate and preload to make their case that it does. Will it change the spring pre load the answer is yes it does but only when the truck is not on the ground and the complete assembly is fully extended. It has No effect on the way the truck rides because even if you set the spring to the highest level which is 2.8 the spring compresses well past 2.8 inches with the weight of the truck thus the weight on the spring with the truck on the ground is identical because the truck is sitting exactly 2.8" higher than it was before thus it is impossible for the assembly to have more preload with the truck on the ground. The spring coil will be Exactly the same length with the truck on the ground no matter what level you have raised the clip to. You can give examples of preload and spring rate to prove your case in any way you want but the Original statement that moving the clip up on the shock will raise your spring preload and make the truck ride harsher is 100% false.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

RamMan381 · Apr 2, 2020

ram1500rsm said:
Have somebody measured the free length of the factory coil ?
Have somebody measured the free length of the Eibach coil ?
Have somebody measured the Eibach strut fully extended ?

Hodge-XJ have measured the coil in the Bisltein 6112's so we know that one is 16" in length (i've added this to my shocks list)
https://www.ramforum.com/posts/1912351/

The 6112's are valved differently than the 5100's, but measure pretty much the same at 21.5", Hodge didn't measure compression but more likely is the same as the 5100.

Stockers are 21.6" extended, 5100's are 21.4 extended.
I don't know if the springs in the 6112's measure the same as the stockers,
Hodge is showing up a visual of both side by side, with the 6112's preloaded at their max height
https://www.ramforum.com/posts/1919237/

It'll be good to know what the Eibach strut measures fully extended, They seem to be valved differently. i think i've read people using the Eibach strut with the factory spring not complaining about the harsh on them at max height but my memory can be playing games

Falcon struts are 23" extended, 16.7 compresses and they use the factory coils.

King OE and Fox OE CO's are 22.5" extended and they're basically extended travel, but their up travel is 1" shorter as i think Crazy has indicated in a previous post. You sway bar won't allow you to use their full uptravel anyways but their bumpstops will protect your fenders from finding your 35's and 37's, Ive posted it i found 1/2" uptravel changing sway bar links from the SPmaxx stock length to the L's, that was with 315/70/17, with 37x12.5x17 i had to go back to the stock length ones. (i'm not lifted with brackets just a modest 2.75" lift)

King 2.5 OE CO's have 14" free length spring, 500lbs/inch spring rate linear
Thuren is using 600 lbs/inch 14" springs in their King 2.5 CO application.
Icon is using 13" free length, 650lbs/inch springs in the 2.5 COs
Fox 2.5 CO's from what i remember are using 14" and 600 lbs/inch springs

I should have taken measurements. I did have the bilstein strut and eibach side by side. The clip positions on the eibachs were lower than on the bilstein’s. Length of the strut assembly was very similar.

I know the Eibach springs were longer and thicker.

So far my truck rides better with the Eibach struts and coils. Previously I had bilstein’s and the factory coils set at the max clip position 2.8” lift.

I could tell valving was different between the bilstein and Eibach struts just by pressing them down and letting them rebound.

I am not sure if my truck rides better because of the valving, less preload on the springs, or a combination of the two.

ram1500rsm · Apr 2, 2020

RamMan381 said:
Your persistence in this thread is incredibly entertaining. Your anger and name calling is hilarious, let’s keep it going!

So can we agree yet that compressing the spring more during install adds preload? I can post some pictures on what effects spring preload has on suspension if you would like?

My bad on the name calling, i'll moderate it as there is no need for it. Its fun but really not needed and i apologize for it.
Anger ? lol no
In the context you're putting it yes the spring has to be compressed as the shock can't extend anymore and the term preload applies for what it is. We know the spring is preloaded in grove 0 Measure free length - spring compressed in groove 0" and that will will be your base preload. it'll be some more in the 2nd one, then some more on the 3rd. the article says preload is measured in inches so it's easy to see. All of that is peachy when you have the thing on the vice.

But the assemblies are not under weight. the shock is limited to where the shaft can extend. can't extend anymore regardless of the groove in use then adding preload is just compressing the spring. But then i'm asking so what ? We're talking about what happens to that preload when the strut is installed and under the vehicle weight. All articles are saying is when the weigh of the vehicle is added to the springs, preloading the spring more or less doesn't change the state of compression on the spring assuming you're not adding any more weight or you shock hasn't been maxed out on extension, thus adding/removing preload is only changing the height of the vehicle, and your spring stiffness is not changing, eye to eye gap in the strut open or closes according to your preload, 1 or 2" of preload won't affect how stiff the spring is. Groove 0 will show less shock shaft, groove 5 will show more spring shaft, measure you spring compressed under full weight in 0" then on 5" and more likely you'll find the spring compressed the same amount.

RamMan381 · Apr 2, 2020

The real problem is you guys are using the wrong terminology.

Preload has nothing to do with vehicle weight. I can’t comprehend how this is so hard for you guys to understand. By moving the spring clip up you are adding preload!

Preload does not change spring rate

preload does change the initial force it takes to compress a spring. That’s why adding preload lifts the vehicle.

RamMan381 · Apr 2, 2020

ram1500rsm said:
My bad on the name calling, i'll moderate it as there is no need for it. Its fun but really not needed and i apologize for it.
Anger ? lol no
In the context you're putting it yes the spring has to be compressed as the shock can't extend anymore and the term preload applies for what it is. We know the spring is preloaded in grove 0 Measure free length - spring compressed in groove 0" and that will will be your base preload. it'll be some more in the 2nd one, then some more on the 3rd. the article says preload is measured in inches so it's easy to see. All of that is peachy when you have the thing on the vice.

But the assemblies are not under weight. the shock is limited to where the shaft can extend. can't extend anymore regardless of the groove in use then adding preload is just compressing the spring. But then i'm asking so what ? We're talking about what happens to that preload when the strut is installed and under the vehicle weight. All articles are saying is when the weigh of the vehicle is added to the springs, preloading the spring more or less doesn't change the state of compression on the spring assuming you're not adding any more weight or you shock hasn't been maxed out on extension, thus adding/removing preload is only changing the height of the vehicle, and your spring stiffness is not changing, eye to eye gap in the strut open or closes according to your preload, 1 or 2" of preload won't affect how stiff the spring is. Groove 0 will show less shock shaft, groove 5 will show more spring shaft, measure you spring compressed under full weight in 0" then on 5" and more likely you'll find the spring compressed the same amount.

.

It sounds like we are moving in the right direction. I get what your saying about spring force at ride height, but that’s not preload. That’s sag.

Spring preload does have effects on suspension beyond setting vehicle height.

Scottyshortbus · Apr 2, 2020

Thanks for explaining the effects of clip positions so thoroughly. I installed the 5100’s on middle clip and it sat so nose high (pre-alignment) that I went down to 2nd position. Now sitting pretty level but I felt like the ride is pretty rough and was actually considering going to bottom clip but now I understand it would have no effect on ride quality in this case. My complaint on installing the bils is that the spring seat does not seat well on the clip and may have caused my truck to sit off level, side to side.

crazykid1994 · Apr 2, 2020

Scottyshortbus said:
Thanks for explaining the effects of clip positions so thoroughly. I installed the 5100’s on middle clip and it sat so nose high (pre-alignment) that I went down to 2nd position. Now sitting pretty level but I felt like the ride is pretty rough and was actually considering going to bottom clip but now I understand it would have no effect on ride quality in this case. My complaint on installing the bils is that the spring seat does not seat well on the clip and may have caused my truck to sit off level, side to side.

Take a picture. Hopefully you didn’t install the spring seat upside down. Many people have done that. Most trucks the second clip is only .7” and the middle clip should only be 1.4” lift. In no way should your truck have been nose high on stock setup

Scottyshortbus · Apr 2, 2020

crazykid1994 said:
Take a picture. Hopefully you didn’t install the spring seat upside down. Many people have done that. Most trucks the second clip is only .7” and the middle clip should only be 1.4” lift. In no way should your truck have been nose high on stock setup

I had to replace all control arms and I think it sat nose high due to alignment being so far off. If I had installed the seats upside down I think I would have gotten a couple extra inches of lift. The seats kinda seem to wobble on the clip so I pounded one down a bit, thinking the weight of truck would settle them further. Perhaps that was a mistake.

crazykid1994 · Apr 3, 2020

How much lift did you get? The bottom clip is 0 lift. That’s why I’m trying to figure out how you ended up nose high. The alignment doesn’t effect your ride height that much and the bilstein struts are slightly more firm than stock but I wouldn’t call it rough. And when I installed my bils the spring seat was a snug fit. I had no issues.

Eibach vs Bilstein, my opinion.

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