3.21 vs 3.92 Gear Ratio...will not be towing much.

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corneileous

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You should have posted all that yesterday, but at this point I'm not arguing anymore, it's never going to end.
Sorry, needed a break.

But no, it won’t ever end as long as people keep explicitly thinking there is no difference between the two ring and pinion gear sets that Ram offers for our trucks but whatever, no sense in beating a dead horse.

However you did just post a new point which I would like to respond to (once, lol):
I’m not making no promises here but I’ll at least try to make my response as less-enticing for you to respond to.


I don't agree here either. These trucks are extremely competitive, and there is no room left on the table for any brand. They simply cannot afford to reduce their ratings, if anything, past history has shown them to be dishonest at times and increase them (or use non standard ratings), anything that might give them a leg up against their competitors. Thankfully now they all use the same "scale".

And if you want to go into "I suspect" territory and ignore payload to tow more than the ratings, the 3.21 guys can just do that too and say "lol, my engine has lots of power left, I'm towing that 11000 TT anyway". Ratings are ratings, we (me anyway) don't ignore them, nor should we recommend that as a viable approach to others.

I don’t know man. When it comes to the horsepower wars; yeah, we’ve been dealing with that ever since the turn of the new millennium. One year Ford will have the strongest diesel and then the next year it will be the Cummins… Next year after that, it might be the Duramax. It’s just one big circle that just continually keeps going around and around.

But when it comes to saying their half-tons can do a lot more than what they probably ought to, that award goes to Ford because who knows, maybe it’s the coil springs that Ram uses that might actually cause some of their limitations. I know they preach that their coil springs are progressive and that they’re are no different from leaf springs but I don’t know, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if having a coil spring suspension would be kind of a limitation. Maybe I’m wrong.

But 11,000 pounds on a halfton is a lot more believable than what Ford claims their properly equipped aluminum F150 can do which is over 13,000 pounds. I don’t buy that at all but whatever, I’m not gonna argue with anybody over it because just despite the possible fact that they’ve done it before, I don’t think ram is really all that concerned about that much competition when it comes to towing and payload until you start getting into the heavy duty trucks where the serious trailer towing is. And not only that, I could see ram saying they’re half tons tow less than what they actually can just to entice the buyer to take it home a three-quarter ton instead of a half ton.

All I know is just despite the fact of how unreliable the four corner air ride in the 1500s can be, it’s still a pretty sweet system because it won’t let your your truck squat under any normal load and not only that, the front is self-leveling also so that if you do hook up to a fairly heavy trailer and choose not to spend upwards of $500 on a weight distribution hitch for just doing short trips, at least the front air ride makes your truck a tiny bit safer by not letting the front of your truck poke up in the air so much. It’ll actually reduce air pressure so that you can get a lot more of that balance back between your your front and rear axle.

And before you say whatever it is you’re going to say regarding this if you choose to respond, keep in mind, when I pulled that mustang to the transmission shop, I didn’t use a weight distribution hitch. I had to take that car about 20 miles away, was running about 70, 75 miles an hour and it pulled that trailer really really nice. Didn’t feel unsafe at all.

But who knows, that could’ve been because of the fact that when I went and grab that trailer and noticed that it had 10 ply tires on it, I used the shops air hose to air the tires up to 80 psi before I hauled the car on it.

But like I said before, I’m not encouraging going over weight ratings but I’m also saying at the same time that in a lot of ways, I think what they set as payload ratings is rather light. I mean come on, some of that could be due to the P rated tires they put on these trucks as well so who knows. Maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not. Same goes for me but one thing I will say, if you are doing that kind of towing a lot then a half-ton isn’t for anybody.


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pacofortacos

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Tires aren't the weak link, the axle is.
They would have no reason to underrate the axle, so I would think it is pretty close.

Ford used to have a HD package for their 1/2 tons, and the advertised numbers were just on that package - but they didn't advertise that part of it :)
 

ramffml

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Sorry, needed a break.

But no, it won’t ever end as long as people keep explicitly thinking there is no difference between the two ring and pinion gear sets that Ram offers for our trucks but whatever, no sense in beating a dead horse.


I’m not making no promises here but I’ll at least try to make my response as less-enticing for you to respond to.




I don’t know man. When it comes to the horsepower wars; yeah, we’ve been dealing with that ever since the turn of the new millennium. One year Ford will have the strongest diesel and then the next year it will be the Cummins… Next year after that, it might be the Duramax. It’s just one big circle that just continually keeps going around and around.

But when it comes to saying their half-tons can do a lot more than what they probably ought to, that award goes to Ford because who knows, maybe it’s the coil springs that Ram uses that might actually cause some of their limitations. I know they preach that their coil springs are progressive and that they’re are no different from leaf springs but I don’t know, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if having a coil spring suspension would be kind of a limitation. Maybe I’m wrong.

But 11,000 pounds on a halfton is a lot more believable than what Ford claims their properly equipped aluminum F150 can do which is over 13,000 pounds. I don’t buy that at all but whatever, I’m not gonna argue with anybody over it because just despite the possible fact that they’ve done it before, I don’t think ram is really all that concerned about that much competition when it comes to towing and payload until you start getting into the heavy duty trucks where the serious trailer towing is. And not only that, I could see ram saying they’re half tons tow less than what they actually can just to entice the buyer to take it home a three-quarter ton instead of a half ton.

All I know is just despite the fact of how unreliable the four corner air ride in the 1500s can be, it’s still a pretty sweet system because it won’t let your your truck squat under any normal load and not only that, the front is self-leveling also so that if you do hook up to a fairly heavy trailer and choose not to spend upwards of $500 on a weight distribution hitch for just doing short trips, at least the front air ride makes your truck a tiny bit safer by not letting the front of your truck poke up in the air so much. It’ll actually reduce air pressure so that you can get a lot more of that balance back between your your front and rear axle.

And before you say whatever it is you’re going to say regarding this if you choose to respond, keep in mind, when I pulled that mustang to the transmission shop, I didn’t use a weight distribution hitch. I had to take that car about 20 miles away, was running about 70, 75 miles an hour and it pulled that trailer really really nice. Didn’t feel unsafe at all.

But who knows, that could’ve been because of the fact that when I went and grab that trailer and noticed that it had 10 ply tires on it, I used the shops air hose to air the tires up to 80 psi before I hauled the car on it.

But like I said before, I’m not encouraging going over weight ratings but I’m also saying at the same time that in a lot of ways, I think what they set as payload ratings is rather light. I mean come on, some of that could be due to the P rated tires they put on these trucks as well so who knows. Maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not. Same goes for me but one thing I will say, if you are doing that kind of towing a lot then a half-ton isn’t for anybody.


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Ford's ride and tow like crap; maybe that's something we can agree on? :) They are too lightweight, and have a jarring suspension that side skips over bumps from the rear end.
 

njjeff201

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I just took delivery of the Anniversary edition 1500 with E Torque. This will most likely be my last new vehicle so I went all out. We got almsot every option but larger fuel tank (not worth like $600 for 7 more gallons), block heater & adjustable suspension. 67 engine warning lights!! Holy Cow!!! Still reading manual, 350 pages left. I definitely went for the 3.21 rear, I remember my Mustang 428 with a 4.30 posi rear... she would scream on the Jersey Garden State Pkwy. My question is: will fuel economy improve on higher octane fuel? It just shot up here in the Pocomos... approaching $3.00/gallon.
 

corneileous

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Tires aren't the weak link, the axle is.
They would have no reason to underrate the axle, so I would think it is pretty close.

Ford used to have a HD package for their 1/2 tons, and the advertised numbers were just on that package - but they didn't advertise that part of it :)

Hmm, so what you’re silently saying........ since the passenger rated tires aren’t the weak link, then..... the only thing really that a LT tire would be good for is off-roading??

Boy, I really wish I had my new Michelin’s on and not them BFG’s when I pulled that mustang, but I didn’t. But....... I did have the stock SRA’s on when I pulled that U-haul almost 800 miles when I was quickly putting Colorado 8 years ago, far, far away in my rear view mirror.


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ramffml

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I just took delivery of the Anniversary edition 1500 with E Torque. This will most likely be my last new vehicle so I went all out. We got almsot every option but larger fuel tank (not worth like $600 for 7 more gallons), block heater & adjustable suspension. 67 engine warning lights!! Holy Cow!!! Still reading manual, 350 pages left. I definitely went for the 3.21 rear, I remember my Mustang 428 with a 4.30 posi rear... she would scream on the Jersey Garden State Pkwy. My question is: will fuel economy improve on higher octane fuel? It just shot up here in the Pocomos... approaching $3.00/gallon.

If you're currently running 87 then it might improve slightly if you run 89. Some people report slight improvements. I can't tell in terms of MPG, but I can tell when I'm towing that there is far less pinging/knocking under heavy load using 89/91. The manual says 87 is allowed, but 89 is recommended for optimum performance.
 

corneileous

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I just took delivery of the Anniversary edition 1500 with E Torque. This will most likely be my last new vehicle so I went all out. We got almsot every option but larger fuel tank (not worth like $600 for 7 more gallons), block heater & adjustable suspension. 67 engine warning lights!! Holy Cow!!! Still reading manual, 350 pages left. I definitely went for the 3.21 rear, I remember my Mustang 428 with a 4.30 posi rear... she would scream on the Jersey Garden State Pkwy. My question is: will fuel economy improve on higher octane fuel? It just shot up here in the Pocomos... approaching $3.00/gallon.

It’s supposed to. When you get to that part of the manual, you’ll see where they say that 87 is ok but 89 is what’s recommended if you want maximum power, performance and mileage. The only problem tho, depending on the price of fuel, the cost you pay for the 89 octane fuel will get to the point to where it won’t be offset by the little fuel economy but you will still get the power and performance-


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El_Lobo_Gris1500C

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And lower RPM's for the 3:21 means the engine lasting longer, continuous high RPM's are not good for these engines.

From what I've learned about the valves and the cams not getting lubrication at lower RPM's (oil not splashing up and on the cam and valves being higher up from the crank shaft and not inline with the dripping oil from above them) higher RPM's in these 5.7L hemi engines is actually a good thing, speaking on lubrication and longevity of the engine in regards to premature valve and cam failures aka the 'hemi tick'.

But I can also see that continued high RPM's or 'stress' on an engine could potentially cause issues also.

I'm going to be trading in a 2019 1500 classic with the 6 speed 5.7L 3.55 crew cab for a 2021 classic crew cab 5.7L with 8 speed trans and the 3.92 gears, I'm looking forward to and hoping it does have good acceleration off the line, more torque etc. I drive 7-8km to work so highway is not really a major concern for me, most roads here that I'm on 95% of the time are 40-60km/hr and 80km/hr. Highway I usually travel at around 110km/hr to stay in the flow of typical traffic in the middle or rh lane. I never tow anything, so I'm hoping this new Ram is 'fun' for my typical use.
 

El_Lobo_Gris1500C

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There are at least 2 limits on each truck. What you can tow (in your case, 11,000 pounds) and the weight you can carry on your axles (payload). You may be able to tow 11,000 pounds, but you can't carry more than (on average in most 5th gens) say 1300 to 1500 pounds unless you have a stripped down work truck.

A typical travel trailer has about 13% tongue weight. 11,000 pounds trailer means your tongue weight would be about 1450 pounds. Which means, just connecting your 11,000 pound trailer would put you at max payload for your truck. The problem is, when you hop in you weight 200 pounds. Your wife weighs 200 pounds. Add 2 kids at 100 pounds each, some luggage and stuff in the back + WDH, another 100 pounds. The weight of your trailer (1450) + the weight you add with your bodys and cargo (600) means that now your truck is carrying 2050 pounds.

See the problem? Your truck isn't rated to carry that much weight. You can tow it, but you can't carry it. Your truck is limited by the first limit you hit, be it payload or towing weight. You have to shed weight. Either kick out your family and travel solo, or, buy a smaller travel trailer.

I used the number 8000 pounds because that is more typical. An 8000 pound trailer would put 1050 pounds on the bed of your truck. Now you have a few hundred pounds before you hit max payload. You can add yourself and your wife, but that's probably it. It adds up really fast.

That's why you can't realistically tow > 8000 pounds. Unless you're towing a really large boat where tongue weight is more in the 5 to 10 percent range. 5th wheel? Don't even think about it, 1500's cannot tow any 5th wheel (short of 1 or 2 really small ones) because they put 20 to 25 percent tongue weight.

So yeah, ram rates your truck at 11,000 pounds, but you can't tow just any trailer at 11,000 pounds. There is massive difference between a boat trailer at 11,000 pounds, and a 5th wheel at 11,000 pounds which puts 2500 pounds on the bed of your truck.

You need to be under 11,000 pounds, and under max payload (approx 1500). You can't just worry about the 1 limit, both matter.

Bottom line: in my opinion, the 1500 is well suited for 0 to 8000 pounds. After that, just buy a 3/4 and tow it properly where it's actually possible to stay under both limits. The vast majority of the time, the 3.92 doesn't get you anything, unless you want to offroad it and want that extra crawl ratio, or you plan to run oversize tires.

Just a thought, and I don't know for 100% sure but, wouldn't a truck and it's towing and cargo weight max be based on the max passengers seated in the vehicle with an average weight per passenger (200 lbs per?), to eliminate having to do the math of weighing each passenger, and subtracting that from the payload and towing weights?
 

pacofortacos

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Hmm, so what you’re silently saying........ since the passenger rated tires aren’t the weak link, then..... the only thing really that a LT tire would be good for is off-roading??

Boy, I really wish I had my new Michelin’s on and not them BFG’s when I pulled that mustang, but I didn’t. But....... I did have the stock SRA’s on when I pulled that U-haul almost 800 miles when I was quickly putting Colorado 8 years ago, far, far away in my rear view mirror.


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Running LT will probably wear less when constantly heavy loaded vs. some P rated tires and will handle the heat from being loaded much better.
LT are also much more resistant to punctures than some of the P rated tires.
My P rated XL load tires carry almost as much load as LT E load tires.

But yes, the P rated tires are still rated well over the axle capacity - even the SRA.

That being said, running a tire closer to it's max capacity constantly isn't the best thing to do either.

Many think that LT instantly means also a stiffer sidewall, which isn't always true - feel the sidewall on the Michelin Defenders on their LT version, it is a very soft sidewall. Which also explains how it can still have a good ride even when the air pressure is up.
 

pacofortacos

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From what I've learned about the valves and the cams not getting lubrication at lower RPM's (oil not splashing up and on the cam and valves being higher up from the crank shaft and not inline with the dripping oil from above them) higher RPM's in these 5.7L hemi engines is actually a good thing, speaking on lubrication and longevity of the engine in regards to premature valve and cam failures aka the 'hemi tick'.

But I can also see that continued high RPM's or 'stress' on an engine could potentially cause issues also.

I'm going to be trading in a 2019 1500 classic with the 6 speed 5.7L 3.55 crew cab for a 2021 classic crew cab 5.7L with 8 speed trans and the 3.92 gears, I'm looking forward to and hoping it does have good acceleration off the line, more torque etc. I drive 7-8km to work so highway is not really a major concern for me, most roads here that I'm on 95% of the time are 40-60km/hr and 80km/hr. Highway I usually travel at around 110km/hr to stay in the flow of typical traffic in the middle or rh lane. I never tow anything, so I'm hoping this new Ram is 'fun' for my typical use.

You will enjoy that combo for your use - it is where that combo shines.
Even with a 3.21 it would be a step up from your 19 in performance - the 8 speed makes that much of a difference.
 

ramffml

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Just a thought, and I don't know for 100% sure but, wouldn't a truck and it's towing and cargo weight max be based on the max passengers seated in the vehicle with an average weight per passenger (200 lbs per?), to eliminate having to do the math of weighing each passenger, and subtracting that from the payload and towing weights?

Some definitions:
  • GCWR = max allowed weight of the truck and everything in it, plus the weight of the trailer you are towing and everything in it.
  • GVWR = max allowed weight of the truck, it includes everything: truck itself, passengers, cargo, trailer tongue weight; this should never be exceeded.
  • CURB WEIGHT = empty weight of the truck; it includes all features of the truck when it left factory (skid plates, bedliner etc), and all fluids (full tank of gas); no passengers or cargo
  • PAYLOAD = GVWR - CURB WEIGHT

So payload does not include 200 pounds per passenger. You start with the empty truck weight (but with full gas tank etc), add people, cargo, and tongue weight, until you reach GVWR.

All 5th gen 1500's with the hemi have the same GVWR, 7100 pounds. Curb weight will differ from truck to truck, yours will be different than mine unless it's configured 100% exactly the same from the factory. If you later add your own tow hooks, mud flaps, side steps etc, this weight gets added to your curb weight and reduced from your available payload.

3.21 5th gens with hemi have a GCWR of 13900
3.92 5th gens with hemi have a GCWR of 17000

That is where the increased towing ability is. The 3.92 has a higher limit for the combined weight of truck and trailer (GCWR) but it has the same max weight for the truck itself (GVWR). Therefore, though you can pull more with 3.92, you cannot carry more weight (in the bed etc) with it.

I'm less certain about this part: where I believe the confusion concerning passenger weight is coming from, is that the J2807 specification allows 300 pounds of passenger weight in the truck, that number is for the GCWR (what you can tow), not the GVWR (what you can carry).

Sources:
https://www.ramtrucks.com/content/dam/fca-brands/na/ramtrucks/en_us/towing/2019_DT_J1_Trailer Tow Official Report_OFFICIAL_A_2018-1-31.pdf

https://www.ramtrucks.com/BodyBuilder/service/Image?imageId=MtQrP/FqLY5r/est8MtGjGgHzAHGUTU0WB3rWuqSY7YmQ2vEhuBWBAvoEbjA+c5q
 
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El_Lobo_Gris1500C

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Some definitions:
  • GCWR = max allowed weight of the truck and everything in it, plus the weight of the trailer you are towing and everything in it.
  • GVWR = max allowed weight of the truck, it includes everything: truck itself, passengers, cargo, trailer tongue weight; this should never be exceeded.
  • CURB WEIGHT = empty weight of the truck; it includes all features of the truck when it left factory (skid plates, bedliner etc), and all fluids (full tank of gas); no passengers or cargo
  • PAYLOAD = GVWR - CURB WEIGHT

So payload does not include 200 pounds per passenger. You start with the empty truck weight (but with full gas tank etc), add people, cargo, and tongue weight, until you reach GVWR.

All 5th gen 1500's with the hemi have the same GVWR, 7100 pounds. Curb weight will differ from truck to truck, yours will be different than mine unless it's configured 100% exactly the same from the factory. If you later add your own tow hooks, mud flaps, side steps etc, this weight gets added to your curb weight and reduced from your available payload.

3.21 5th gens with hemi have a GCWR of 13900
3.92 5th gens with hemi have a GCWR of 17000

That is where the increased towing ability is. The 3.92 has a higher limit for the combined weight of truck and trailer (GCWR) but it has the same max weight for the truck itself (GVWR). Therefore, though you can pull more with 3.92, you cannot carry more weight (in the bed etc) with it.

I'm less certain about this part: where I believe the confusion concerning passenger weight is coming from, is that the J2807 specification allows 300 pounds of passenger weight in the truck, that number is for the GCWR (what you can tow), not the GVWR (what you can carry).

Sources:
https://www.ramtrucks.com/content/dam/fca-brands/na/ramtrucks/en_us/towing/2019_DT_J1_Trailer Tow Official Report_OFFICIAL_A_2018-1-31.pdf

https://www.ramtrucks.com/BodyBuilder/service/Image?imageId=MtQrP/FqLY5r/est8MtGjGgHzAHGUTU0WB3rWuqSY7YmQ2vEhuBWBAvoEbjA+c5q

So confusing lol, I guess it’s best practice to just not get too close to your Max towing rating, and assume you’ll have to subtract the weight of passengers (what if it’s 4 women, and you’re not supposed to ask their weight??? lol).

I don’t tow anything ever, so as long as my family isn’t like 1000lbs each I’ll always be good to go [emoji23]


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ramffml

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So confusing lol, I guess it’s best practice to just not get too close to your Max towing rating, and assume you’ll have to subtract the weight of passengers (what if it’s 4 women, and you’re not supposed to ask their weight??? lol).

I don’t tow anything ever, so as long as my family isn’t like 1000lbs each I’ll always be good to go [emoji23]


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It can definitely be confusing lol. I know of guys who are towing 9000 pound 5th wheels with these rams because they have a 3.92. Their thought is "ram isn't going to lie to me and tell me my truck can tow more than it actually can so you're wrong". Ram isn't wrong; you can tow an 11000 pound hay wagon where you're just adding 20 pounds of weight from the hitch bar, but you can't tow an 11,000 pound 5th wheel where you're adding 2200+ pounds onto the back of your truck. Ram doesn't know what trailer you're towing, so like all trucks they give a bunch of different limits and specs, which most people just ignore (or just don't know about) and only focus on GCWR.

There are several limits to the truck:
- what you can tow
- what you can carry
- where you can carry it

So in addition to not exceeding payload, you also have to make sure you don't exceed rear axle weighting. If you don't use a WDH, you can put enough weight on your truck such that you're still under payload, but over the weight of your rear axle.

I take a lot of heat for my opinion on this, but that's why I suggest using a bigger truck if you're pulling > 8000 pounds. If you need a calculator to determine if you're within all your specs, it's obvious you're pushing up against the boundary's. I like to be well within ratings, but that's just me.

If you're interested in more on this, there is a great channel on youtube, "btbrv" (big truck big rv). He actually is far more conservative than 8000 pounds for a half ton, I think his personal limit is 6000 or so.
 

runamuck

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these numbers can be for sure be confusing..an earlier poster even suggested that ram claims lower numbers than actual so as to have extra safety margins. might be some truth in that. CAT scale wt. with my trailer attached came out to be 6580# total wt. of truck and trailer on hitch..leaving only 520# of the 7100# allowed but the rear axle load was only 3340# of the 4100# capacity and the front load of 3240# was 660# less than capacity so I am theoretically over 1400# shy of max..this explains why my son with his '17 laramie just like my '19 but with 200# less cargo cap. could have a leer topper and back end full of gear and firewood and stuff and a similar size trailer hooked on and he never worried about being over loaded.
 

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1500 guys who want to tow heavy need to go retro. Put a set of old school bogey wheels under the tongue to carry the load. This old movie is the only place I’ve ever seen these, but I think of it every time payload vs towing capacity s discussed here.

Edit: a little Google research tells me these are called Slimp Wheels. Slimp Axle Products in Colton CA. most likely built the ones seen in this photo.



C2ADF166-6B2C-43D6-B93D-20A767BF061D.jpeg
 
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soapy

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P rated tires are rated at 100% of their capacity and a LT tire is only rated at 75% of its capacity so do not compare the load rating equally.
 

TimboRam77

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2019 limited 3.21 for 23000 miles. It was fine quiet and 21.5 mpg highway if I tried. 16.5 city. If I drove more highway I'd go back with 3.21. Towing through the mountains 3000lb was ok.

Now I have a 21 limited with 3.92. This is much more sporty. 14.5 adverage mpg but not broke in. I just like hearing the engine rev and for my driving the higher revs might make the engine last longer. imo according to the accumulated knowledge reference valve train issues. Really who knows but I Do love the revs and shifts better in the 3.92.
 

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these numbers can be for sure be confusing..an earlier poster even suggested that ram claims lower numbers than actual so as to have extra safety margins. might be some truth in that. CAT scale wt. with my trailer attached came out to be 6580# total wt. of truck and trailer on hitch..leaving only 520# of the 7100# allowed but the rear axle load was only 3340# of the 4100# capacity and the front load of 3240# was 660# less than capacity so I am theoretically over 1400# shy of max..this explains why my son with his '17 laramie just like my '19 but with 200# less cargo cap. could have a leer topper and back end full of gear and firewood and stuff and a similar size trailer hooked on and he never worried about being over loaded.

The 17 rear axle rating is only 3900#, the 5th gen axle is rated at 4100#.
 
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