Do you guys think all Gen 3 5.7L Hemi engines are doomed for lifter/cam failure?

beats the subject to death.. well it least it isnt a 5 part series... put it on 1.25 speed

I'm coming through the tail end of an engine rebuild and have some observations to share.

First, my engine/truck is a 2018, RCSB. I've modded the heck out of it including an SC running about 6-8 pounds of boost max, and a Jay Greene .5 HL cam kit.

The motor has about 80k on it, I did the Cam at 40 and the SC at 60.

The original cam at 40 had minimal wear as did the rollers, just shiny parts where contact was made, and it had been running 0-20 from the dealership before I bought it.

At 40 when I did the cam I changed to redline, did the MDS delete, and left the MDS solenoids in place.

At 60 I did the SC and scoped the cam lobes, they still looked fine.

I pulled the motor at 80 and had it rebuilt with a forged rotating assembly (scat kit), and am just about ready to fire it back up finally. The JG cam looks great, and the same wear basically on the non-MDS/Hellcat lifters, nothing concerning yet. I soaked them in redline to make sure to get some fresh oil into the pilot bearings and keep them pumped up.

Couple of things:

1-I don't remember the youtube link that showed it but if you disable MDS GET THE PLUGS INSTALLED. There's an oil passage you block when the MDS solenoids are in, not sure of the volume of oil but you're losing out on some lubrication. The plugs let the oil flow through the MDS solenoids into the lifters/cams I think.

2-I was a little surprised when I took the motor apart to find some small amounts of sludge build up in some of the nooks and cranny's. Not the extent that I used to see on older motors with straight dino in them, but it was a bit concerning. I'll stick to the 5K oil change cycle from now on, I was stretching it to 8.

3-For what it's worth my rod bearings/journals were all great, but I think the motor was a ticking time bomb on cast internals which is why I did the forged assembly and stroked it a bit.

I've been one of the lucky one's not to have this issue.(knock on wood). Over 304,000 on my current Ram and over 362,000 on my prior Ram. I'm not taking chances on my new engine. MDS delete and cam & lifter swap.

Mine (14) started chirping pretty bad at idle @ around 70k.

Rolled over 100k last month and she hasn't blown yet.

What is the easiest / cheapest tuner one can use to raise the RPM at idle with?

HEMIMANN said:

No. Ex Ram Tech on here reported ~ 5% failures at his dealership. You're doing the right things for preventive maintenance. Idle as little as possible (don't let it sit and idle), change oil every 5k, change your PCV every 2 yrs.

Think of it this way .... 90%+ do NOT fail.

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5% is an acceptable number until you realize that most folks aren't taking their trucks to the dealerships after their warrantees have expired.

I just bought a 2009 1500 4x4 from the original owner. It has 195,000 miles on it and he had the top end redone about 4000 miles ago. He said he never had any trouble with it before that and always used Mobil 1 in it. He ended up selling it because the a/c failed and airbag light came on and also had a worn out driver seat. I got a good deal on it and did the work myself and will continue the upkeep on the drivetrain. BTW, he said he never had a problem with the transmission, axles or anything else major.

ramffml said:

Clearly "some" are failing. My current belief is that the vast majority of this is due to owners not changing the oil on time. A guy did a video on youtube a while ago and went into great detail on how the hemi's are oiled, the lifters are NOT short on oil. If they were, the first time you pulled a trailer for a few minutes it would be dead. The needle bearings in the lifters have been getting clogged with debris, a result of not changing the oil on time. Once the needle bearings go, the lifter/cam is done for. Chevy has the same design (and same failures) though I don't know if Hemi is worse by shear numbers of which engines are failing more.

My plan is to use Redline 5w-20 and/or 5w-30 while towing in the summer. Keep oil changes under 7500 miles (for me that is at 25% oil life on the indicator), and send used oil to blackstone in the hopes they can catch any problem that might crop up before it starts doing actual damage. The second they come back with data that shows the engine getting worse, trade it off.

But statistically, I think there is a very small chance of me getting a bad engine. They don't all fail, not that I'm aware of.

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Considering the staggering price of a new rig, regardless of who makes them, I'm disappointed that there ARE so many major engine failures. A friend of mine just recently had this failure on his 2018 Silverado. He called me on the phone in a panic because they were charging him over 6 grand, IIRC, and he was at 64000 miles!

I directed him to call GM consumer affairs, which he did. They participated and he was only out 1800 dollars.

Whether it is GM, Ford, FCA, or whomever, their collective engineering is lacking it appears. A friend of mine posited that, perhaps, the CAFE standards which preceded the new DOD feature caught the manufacturers unprepared. Inasmuch as Toyota doesn't incorporate DOD on it's V-8 engines, and their engines don't have these major problems, credence would likely be lent to my friend's thought.

The pin failures seem beyond the oil brand/type, but I don't know that for a fact. In the meanwhile, I'll stick to my very old vehicles.

You fools are destroying your cams playing with unrecommended oil viscosities... and these are older cars failing but you could also void your warranty...

The computer can see when your being stupid and not running THE recommended oil(and the dealer can)... using different viscosities in a MDS engine will destroy your cam! It screws up the MDS lifter operation(slows it down) and this can cause crashing... STUPID.. i see so many recommended stupid oil viscosities... turning up the idle... dumb dumb dumb... your just wearing it out faster.

MudSkipper said:

You fools are destroying your cams playing with unrecommended oil viscosities... and these are older cars failing but you could also void your warranty...

The computer can see when your being stupid and not running THE recommended oil(and the dealer can)... using different viscosities in a MDS engine will destroy your cam! It screws up the MDS lifter operation(slows it down) and this can cause crashing... STUPID.. i see so many recommended stupid oil viscosities... turning up the idle... dumb dumb dumb... your just wearing it out faster.

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This might interest you. This is from the 700 page printed owners manual for my 14,you don't have this manual.Read the note at the bottom,even FCA says 5W-30 is acceptable.You'll also notice they say to use 5W-20 for easier cold weather starting and better fuel milege,"no" where do they state 5W-20 is best for the longevity of the engine,and you can be dammed sure if they thought 5W-20 was best for the engines longevity,they'd be touting it to the moon and back.

Long periods of idling is the culprit. The lifters do not get enough lube at idle. Has a high Volume oil pump had any success? New Gen engines are pretty tight. I’m curious if a rear seal can last in a high volume, high pressure engine? Anyone try?

MAC830203 said:

Long periods of idling is the culprit. The lifters do not get enough lube at idle. Has a high Volume oil pump had any success? New Gen engines are pretty tight. I’m curious if a rear seal can last in a high volume, high pressure engine? Anyone try?

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If my lifters fail im doing a high pressure melling pump. I hope i never have to. Atleast not before 200k

MAC830203 said:

Long periods of idling is the culprit. The lifters do not get enough lube at idle. Has a high Volume oil pump had any success? New Gen engines are pretty tight. I’m curious if a rear seal can last in a high volume, high pressure engine? Anyone try?

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You're better off with bumping the idle rpm up a 150/200 rpm via tuning.The Hellcats use a factory high volumne pump,but still operate at roughly the same pressures as the 5.7/6.4's do.BTW oil pressure has nothing to do with seals blowing out. There's no seal in an engine that controls oil pressure,blowby past the rings can pressurize the crankcase enough to cause seal issues,but not oil pressure

MAC830203 said:

Long periods of idling is the culprit. The lifters do not get enough lube at idle. Has a high Volume oil pump had any success? New Gen engines are pretty tight. I’m curious if a rear seal can last in a high volume, high pressure engine? Anyone try?

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There are so many stories (even on this forum) of guys with lifter failure who did not idle their engine (much) at all; and also stories of guys who have > 1000 idle hours on a truck with 100,000 miles. Further, there is a report from a metallurgy specialist who says in his opinion, the failure he looked at was caused by bad oil ("insufficient lubriscosity"), and that there were no signs of oil starvation (so the oil was there, just not doing its job because its not the best oil for the hemi).

So maybe we can put to bed this myth that idling causes lifter failure, or at least, recognize there are probably more important factors at play.

I’ve torn them down. Built them back up and cam lobe failure is insufficient oil lubrication, period. Weather it’s a bad lifter, lifter bore, oil pump or some guys sister that didn’t know you had to put oil in an engine…. And I still haven’t seen how a push rod oiled horizontal lifter maintains oil cushion at idle. Did the assembly line ensure cam oil hole line up? What’s the difference from rear to front volumes and pressures?
but, hey what do I know. So again, has anyone that builds the hemi and races a hemi had success with higher oil flow and pressure with out blowing out seals?
I saw a post that stated bigger tires make you go faster.

Travis8352 said:

If my lifters fail im doing a high pressure melling pump. I hope i never have to. Atleast not before 200k

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I wonder about "long idle" periods really being the culprit. At this stage of automotive production (over 100 years), I'd like to think that kind of glaring engineering fault would be a thing of the past. Also, I truly wonder what the accurate numbers are.... total production / failed engine lifter ratio.

Is it possible that some people are less than truthful about how well and properly cared for their vehicle is? All this prattle I've seen and read about which brand out of dozens of filters are the correct/best, and which motor oil out of dozens of choices is really best confuses the issue.

In my formal training, the engineers who taught factory engine classes were pretty candid about the truths based upon which lubricants were proper and which coolants were as well. One sad fact is the correlative and inductive reasoning to draw conclusions are adopted as fact because "Grandpa says so" or "Uncle Charlie used X brand of oil and drove his 1967 car or truck many thousands of miles without major breakdown". When deductive logic is applied, one must consider the tens of thousands of units in use today. Additionally, variables of conditions, drain intervals, driving habits, etc. all factor in. How many HEMI engines see post 200 thousand mile service without any lick of a problem, as opposed to the number that do have issues?

I've personally NEVER been brand loyal to any motor oil. I've chosen to apply the collective wisdom of the engineers who've taught me through the years and advised that the API rating for the vehicle is the golden standard. The proper weight is also important, but THAT depends upon whether the vehicle sees severe duty such as daily driving on the gridiron of a place like Houston, Texas, or a much milder, drier clime. Severe cold would be an issue as well. The owner's manual generally specifies different weights of oil for different driving conditions and climates. As far as brand of oil filters, I generally use factory brand, as opposed to the el-cheapo ones seen on vehicles that have been to the drive through oil change places. I also wonder if very many people realize how many designs of engines bypass the oil filter entirely a fairly low pressure so as to prevent starvation/cavitation upon hard acceleration.

In conclusion, this debate will go on and on.

MAC830203 said:

I’ve torn them down. Built them back up and cam lobe failure is insufficient oil lubrication, period. Weather it’s a bad lifter, lifter bore, oil pump or some guys sister that didn’t know you had to put oil in an engine…. And I still haven’t seen how a push rod oiled horizontal lifter maintains oil cushion at idle. Did the assembly line ensure cam oil hole line up? What’s the difference from rear to front volumes and pressures?
but, hey what do I know. So again, has anyone that builds the hemi and races a hemi had success with higher oil flow and pressure with out blowing out seals?
I saw a post that stated bigger tires make you go faster.

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You need to listen to @Wild one ..........crankcase pressure is what will blow oil out seals not oil pressure.
Oil pressure is contained to the oil ports and channels.
It could blow out the filter/seal.

MAC830203 said:

I’ve torn them down. Built them back up and cam lobe failure is insufficient oil lubrication, period. Weather it’s a bad lifter, lifter bore, oil pump or some guys sister that didn’t know you had to put oil in an engine…. And I still haven’t seen how a push rod oiled horizontal lifter maintains oil cushion at idle. Did the assembly line ensure cam oil hole line up? What’s the difference from rear to front volumes and pressures?
but, hey what do I know. So again, has anyone that builds the hemi and races a hemi had success with higher oil flow and pressure with out blowing out seals?
I saw a post that stated bigger tires make you go faster.

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Remind me never to buy an engine from you,if you don't know crank splash is what oils the lifters roller face and cam lobe surfaces,and still think oil pressure blows out crank seals.Show us which seal in an engine that controls or maintains oil pressure in the system,besides the one in the filter

MudSkipper said:

You fools are destroying your cams playing with unrecommended oil viscosities... and these are older cars failing but you could also void your warranty...

The computer can see when your being stupid and not running THE recommended oil(and the dealer can)... using different viscosities in a MDS engine will destroy your cam! It screws up the MDS lifter operation(slows it down) and this can cause crashing... STUPID.. i see so many recommended stupid oil viscosities... turning up the idle... dumb dumb dumb... your just wearing it out faster.

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Just read an article from Blackstone, the company that most of us here use for used oil analysis. Want to read a direct quote?

People often ask us if it’s okay to use a different viscosity oil than what the manufacturer recommends.
And typically, the answer is yes. Engine manufacturers dyno-test their engines using a specific viscosity
oil, so when you use the viscosity they recommend, you are working with a known result. Going to
another viscosity is an experiment, but it’s usually a harmless one. For the sake of efficiency, you want
to run the lightest grade oil in your engine possible, within limits. If you’re racing, for example, that may
require a thicker oil to stand up to the heat demands of more extreme use.

Over the last few years we have seen a trend of lighter oil for new engines. The common 10W/30 of a
decade or two ago has become a 5W/30, 5W/20, or 0W/20. Many manufacturers use 5W/20 or 0W/20
oil at the factory (even in trucks) and recommend it for everyday use for many light vehicles. On the
other hand, we can’t see in analysis where it hurts anything to run a 10W/30 or a 10W/40 when a lighter
oil is called for. Feel free to try different grades until you find one that suits your particular situation.

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Wild one said:

Remind me never to buy an engine from you,if you don't know crank splash is what oils the lifters roller face and cam lobe surfaces,and still think oil pressure blows out crank seals.Show us which seal in an engine that controls or maintains oil pressure in the system,besides the one in the filter

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Fine with me. I race mine. There ain’t lifer oil from crank splash in the Hemi at idle….. why does a rear seal leak at 75psi? Dude, if you can’t break it, you’ll never fixit.

MAC830203 said:

Fine with me. I race mine. There ain’t lifer oil from crank splash in the Hemi at idle….. why does a rear seal leak at 75psi? Dude, if you can’t break it, you’ll never fixit.

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Real seals don't leak from oil pressure bud.You better do some research.Seals leak when they get old and hard,or wear a groove in whatever they were sealing,or from crankcase pressure created by blowby. Yup i'll never buy an engine from you,and probably won't listen much to your advice,lol. Have a nice day though Just for the record you're not the only one racing them,lol.

My .02, I have 4 5.7s. From 20k to 150k. All are 8k OCI, all are SRT filters, all are redline 5w30, 2 of 4 have tuners, 1 has a supercharger, all are daily driven in -50 to plus 110 Temps depending on location and time of year. 2 tow, 2 do not. All are driven hard, all but 1 has less than 10% idle time.
I've idled 1 for 9 straight hours in a blizzard stuck on the side of the road waiting on the national guard.

My point, lifter failure is random. It strikes when certain conditions avail themselves. Very little can be determined why they fail.

I never expect to do a lifter job on one of my 5.7s. However my odds are better than most as my exposure is higher. If it happens, I'll build the whole thing, forged internals, upgraded Cam and you can bet the ears off your head, it will get the biggest supercharger I can bolt to it. Because superchargers make power down low, and that's where I like it.