Old age and detailing.

CheechDogg.0n37s said:

Believe what you want to believe lol ... it's been proven .... just the cleaning solutions they use at these automatic car washes is enough for them to eat through the clear coat if your finish is even contaminated and already deteriorating .... These clear coats are so thin which is why washing a car with dish soap is so bad for them, dish soap has abrasives that act as sandpaper, pair that up with all the contaminants you are brushing away you can get a mixture equivalent to 800 grit sandpaper ..

Now imagine the brushes at these car washes, you know they don't clean them every day or every week for that matter, you have all kinds of crap on those brushes, curtains, what ever else they use to "brush" off the grime off your vehicles ... all that is "sanding" away at your clear coat ..

But hey, another one that doesn't believe lol ... a local chain of car washes out here already has a class action lawsuit against them for this very matter, will it hold up in court, probably not, but fact is automatic car washes are bad for you vehicles simple as that ...

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Cleaner type waxes also thin out the clearcoats

Octane said:

Cleaner type waxes also thin out the clearcoats

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That's why I don't use cleaner type waxes lol ...

If I do any type of paint correction I will recommend a ceramic coating to replenish the clear coat that was removed and I will first measure the thickness of the clearcoat before any type of paint correction especially to the hoods and roof

I haven't seen any issue with my last half dozen vehicles. Most of them went through the brush type washed bi weekly year round.
Then especially in the winter even more often to keep some of the ice melt and slop washed off.

Most people with their daily driver vehicles do not know enough about paint and proper care.Nor do they really care.If it looks good enough at a glance then that's good enough for them.Some think that there is no point in a vehicles paint looking all that good when it gets higher mileage on the vehicle especially.That said,auto car washes and even improper at home washes are what has the most degrading affect on the finishes.Personally I have had vehicles with immaculate paint with 100s of thousands of miles on the vehicle only to have some clown smash the thing to crap on the highway.A dumb*** on a smart*** phone.(that's driving an auto carwashed car at the time...lol

Octane said:

Most people with their daily driver vehicles do not know enough about paint and proper care.Nor do they really care.If it looks good enough at a glance then that's good enough for them.Some think that there is no point in a vehicles paint looking all that good when it gets higher mileage on the vehicle especially.That said,auto car washes and even improper at home washes are what has the most degrading affect on the finishes.Personally I have had vehicles with immaculate paint with 100s of thousands of miles on the vehicle only to have some clown smash the thing to crap on the highway.A dumb*** on a smart*** phone.(that's driving an auto carwashed car at the time...lol

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Exactly !!! most don't care about those swirl marks, small scratches like "I" or "YOU" do .... and most wash their vehicles with dish soap, dry it with a bath towel and boom they are good with that lol ...

Every week I get someone who's vehicle has been mistreated one way or another, a quick one step and they are like "the car looks brand new" ... huge difference when that sun hits that perfect finish eh ?

Socalramfan said:

Just a side note...... Interesting at how a 40 year old original paint on a Mzb I have can hold its own and stand up to any new paint job. Wonder how today’s paint will look in even 1/4 of that time.

Just a thought


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That car has a liquid primer, solvent born basecoat, and a 2k ISO clearcoat. Very robust layering system. For years in the USA there was an aversion to utilize 2K ISO clearcoats due to environmental and potential health issues. Beautiful cars. Nice vehicle.

FYI. Ceramic coatings applied by the professionals are typically 1 to 2 microns max. Clearcoat alone is typically 35 to 50 microns or more depending on whether a vertical or horizontal surface and other factors.

quickster2 said:

FYI. Ceramic coatings applied by the professionals are typically 1 to 2 microns max. Clearcoat alone is typically 35 to 50 microns or more depending on whether a vertical or horizontal surface and other factors.

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FYI ... ceramic coatings are 4 times harder that clear coats and that is per layer , so 2 layers of a ceramic coating will be 8 times harder than a clear coat ...come on man are seriously digging that deep into this?

A clear coat has valleys, crevices where every day contaminants can get into it and underneath it which is what causes the clear coat failure ... the ceramic coating is going to coat all that to a flat finish ... and try removing a ceramic coating, takes much longer to remove a ceramic coating from a vehicles finish than clear coat ...

And all ceramic coatings not just the ones done by the "professionals" are 2 microns thick again per layer ... only difference is the way "they" cure it, they use infrared curing lamps or even ovens to do so ...

CheechDogg.0n37s said:

FYI ... ceramic coatings are 4 times harder that clear coats and that is per layer , so 2 layers of a ceramic coating will be 8 times harder than a clear coat ...come on man are seriously digging that deep into this?

A clear coat has valleys, crevices where every day contaminants can get into it and underneath it which is what causes the clear coat failure ... the ceramic coating is going to coat all that to a flat finish ... and try removing a ceramic coating, takes much longer to remove a ceramic coating from a vehicles finish than clear coat ...

And all ceramic coatings not just the ones done by the "professionals" are 2 microns thick again per layer ... only difference is the way "they" cure it, they use infrared curing lamps or even ovens to do so ...

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Methinks you might be in a pi$$ing contest...lol

One more thing, every time you polish or buff a car you are removing between 10-15 microns of clear coat and that is another fact ... imagine how many times people who don't ceramic coat their vehicles polish or buff or simply use "cleaner wax" to remove scratches, polish or buff their cars, ... just here on the forums you see people talking about polishing or buffing or using a machine to add wax to their cars 2,3 even 4 times a year lol ... that right there is at least 30 microns removed form their clear coat and they don't even know it ...

Octane said:

Methinks you might be in a pi$$ing contest...lol

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Dude , trips me out when someone really doesn't understand things but rather just repeat what they see on youtube videos, tiktok and articles by people who have never done this themselves ...

This is why I cringe when detailers on youtube talk about a "claybar" treatment and polish/buff needed every 4 months ...WTF! ... you only really ever want to claybar a vehicle 1 time per year if that ... why? you mar the finish so you then have to polish or buff it all out ....

I make sure there is enough clear coat to to even the least aggressive paint correction, polish or buff on any vehicle before I even agree to do that kind of work ....

Clear coat is very delicate and people don't seem to understand that ...

43 years old,I keep my truck clean.I don't like seeing it dirty

CheechDogg.0n37s said:

One more thing, every time you polish or buff a car you are removing between 10-15 microns of clear coat and that is another fact ... imagine how many times people who don't ceramic coat their vehicles polish or buff or simply use "cleaner wax" to remove scratches, polish or buff their cars, ... just here on the forums you see people talking about polishing or buffing or using a machine to add wax to their cars 2,3 even 4 times a year lol ... that right there is at least 30 microns removed form their clear coat and they don't even know it ...

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True! That stuff really can get thin, and bad clear makes for a bad finish even if that base is good,it won't be good for long tho.

Octane said:

True! That stuff really can get thin, and bad clear makes for a bad finish even if that base is good,it won't be good for long tho.

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I have already lightly polished/buffed my truck 4 times since I got it but I still have 30+ microns on that SOB lol ... the next time I do paint correct it which it needs almost nothing, I am going to add the ceramic coating on it lol ...

But yes, regular washes on cars that have contaminants actually harms the clear coat even though the vehicles look clean lol ...

Octane said:

Most people with their daily driver vehicles do not know enough about paint and proper care.Nor do they really care.If it looks good enough at a glance then that's good enough for them.Some think that there is no point in a vehicles paint looking all that good when it gets higher mileage on the vehicle especially.That said,auto car washes and even improper at home washes are what has the most degrading affect on the finishes.Personally I have had vehicles with immaculate paint with 100s of thousands of miles on the vehicle only to have some clown smash the thing to crap on the highway.A dumb*** on a smart*** phone.(that's driving an auto carwashed car at the time...lol

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We call those a ‘10’....... they look great 10 feet away, but as you get closer...... ohhhh not so much a 10 any more

quickster2 said:

That car has a liquid primer, solvent born basecoat, and a 2k ISO clearcoat. Very robust layering system. For years in the USA there was an aversion to utilize 2K ISO clearcoats due to environmental and potential health issues. Beautiful cars. Nice vehicle.

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Thank you.

Yep, they definitely had things nailed.

And to think ......... my blue Mzb doesn’t even have clear coat, it’s all 1983 enamel

Socalramfan said:

Thank you.

Yep, they definitely had things nailed.

And to think ......... my blue Mzb doesn’t even have clear coat, it’s all 1983 enamel

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I remember my uncle used to paint cars and he would have me block sanding bondo for him lol ... but he rarely used clear coat but always sprayed 10 coats of base lol ... and his reasoning for it was that clear coat was a waste because it could peel ...

Lots of folks when having their old cars repainted that just had the primer/ base coat factory paint will have a new polyurethane paint job done on it.At least they used to recommend removing all or I guess most of the old paint before doing the clear coat type jobs on it,many did not.Dont really remember if there ever was a problem with it.Don't exactly know why there would be.My Buddy's new 80 model Caprice had a clear coat that failed on it while it was still new. And I had a 90 Chevrolet truck that peeled and after 2 years the factory rep had my dealer repaint the truck. The 1989 Chevys were all being repainted under warranty. I believe it was something about the primer that the factory used that was causing the paint to fall off of them. I've heard that many foreign cars at least back in the day, had better paint on them than American cars had. But I don't know if that's true or what type it was. But I do know the Japanese used to say American auto paint was crap.

Wow! While directionally correct, there are several comments that are just hyperbole, or generally incorrect. If one sprayed 10 coats of base in a basecoat/clearcoat system you would have cracking paint and a very dull and non-robust finish, at a minimum. One coat systems, different story. Your typical cut & finish process (say with products similar to Meguiar's 105/205 2 step) removes around 5 microns of clearcoat. A typical "professional" wet sand with 2000 initially then finishing with 3000, and then a 2 step would remove around 12 microns total. Again, many variables exist here, but these are values for folks that "know what they are doing".

On a side note, many of the cars with peeling paint back in the 80's were a result of OEM's not understanding UV degradation to the e-coat layer without an UV "protective" layer in the primer or top coat. Blue, and other colors prone to UV absorption were the most problematic.

Not wanting to get into a p***ing contest, I'm not going to comment further on this thread. Most of my 35+ years in the automotive industry (majority in Paint Operations) makes me a bit OCD regarding these types of discussions. Getting back on topic, yes I am older, and also do my own detailing Lol. Take care.

Op’s initial inquiry was related to basically keeping our Rams clean, which is great and after 14 pages has sparked passion about it.

Im always open to learning more techniques and ideas.

Keep rocking guys