Another interesting oil concern…goofy??

Just another I don't other people work on my vehicles, there's no pill for stupidity. Does he still drive around on white walled tires?

There is a thought in the repair industry about the relationship between full synthetic motor oils and timing chain stretch. There are a number of videos (guys doing videos must be experts. Right?) about this issue. One in particular by a custom rebuilder in Canada with a current Ford tech. explains how dirt in suspension causes this, although I would think the same effect would be present in conventional oils. (As of the moment I'm typing this I cannot find the URL.)

There is a concern about excessive zinc in some SAE grades and damage to catalytic converters, which I believe is addressed in ILSAC GF-6A.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33 gallon fuel tank, factory dual exhaust, 18” wheels. Build date: 03 June 2018. Now at: 066377 miles.

This is on topic, but from a different perspective. I am an OLD duffer. Back in the late '70s, I had a Honda CB350 motorcycle. Mobil 1 had just come out and everyone was going bonkers over it (and those were pre-internet days). I bought two quarts and at the next oil change put it into the bike. When I started it up, it sounded like the rod caps had come loose. It rattled and literally clanked. I thought I had blown the engine, except it kept running, albeit very loudly and with very odd noises. I shut it down, drained the Mobil 1 and added my usual Havoline 30W. The engine was its usual quiet smooth running self. I concluded it acted that way because the engine was designed to run on the much thicker oil in general use in those days and as I was adding the Mobil 1, it was clearly much, much thinner than I was used to using. I don't think I am adding much information on this issue, just an old anecdotal story. I have had three RAM Hemis and have only used synthetic oil with absolutely no problems. Don't try to get much over 100,000 miles on them. They have all been rock solid performers. Only mechanical problem was a faulty master cylinder on one well within the warranty period.

Possibly oil analysis tracking 2 hemis with similar mileage over time could shed light on this. Anyone done any with regular oil?

Most of us are convinced our way is right and the other way is wrong.

OIL analysis is the best way to prove actual engine wear.

Just a note here....I went to the dealer last week and got my first oil change (2021 Limited, 5.7 eTorque). I asked what oil are they putting in? The service manager said Penzoil "Blend" of conventional and synthetic. He didn't say it was a 50/50 or a 75/25 or any other combinations. He just said "The factory calls for a blend".

Just passing on what I was told.

Denny B said:

Just a note here....I went to the dealer last week and got my first oil change (2021 Limited, 5.7 eTorque). I asked what oil are they putting in? The service manager said Penzoil "Blend" of conventional and synthetic. He didn't say it was a 50/50 or a 75/25 or any other combinations. He just said "The factory calls for a blend".

Just passing on what I was told.

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Interesting. From my 2019 Owners Manual:

"Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) — 5.7L Engine

Mopar SAE 5W-20 engine oil approved to FCA Material Standard MS-6395 such as Pennzoil, Shell Helix or equivalent is recommended for all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. The engine oil filler cap also shows the recommended engine oil viscosity for your engine. For information on engine oil filler cap location, refer to the “Engine Compartment” illustration in this section. Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number should not be used.

Synthetic Engine Oils

You MAY [emphasis mine] use synthetic engine oils provided the recommended oil quality requirements are met, and the recommended maintenance intervals for oil and filter changes are followed. Synthetic engine oils which do not have both the engine oil certification mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number should not be use."

There's no specific mention of blended oil requirement in the owners' manual, but there are 5W-30 conventional oils that meet MS-6395 according to this site: List of Motor Oils with Chrysler Ms-6395 Certification - Oils Advisor

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33 gallon fuel tank, factory dual exhaust, 18” wheels. Build date: 03 June 2018. Now at: 066473 miles.

Dusty said:

Interesting. From my 2019 Owners Manual:

"Engine Oil Viscosity (SAE Grade) — 5.7L Engine

Mopar SAE 5W-20 engine oil approved to FCA Material Standard MS-6395 such as Pennzoil, Shell Helix or equivalent is recommended for all operating temperatures. This engine oil improves low temperature starting and vehicle fuel economy. The engine oil filler cap also shows the recommended engine oil viscosity for your engine. For information on engine oil filler cap location, refer to the “Engine Compartment” illustration in this section. Lubricants which do not have both the engine oil certification mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number should not be used.

Synthetic Engine Oils

You MAY [emphasis mine] use synthetic engine oils provided the recommended oil quality requirements are met, and the recommended maintenance intervals for oil and filter changes are followed. Synthetic engine oils which do not have both the engine oil certification mark and the correct SAE viscosity grade number should not be use."

There's no specific mention of blended oil requirement in the owners' manual, but there are 5W-30 conventional oils that meet MS-6395 according to this site: List of Motor Oils with Chrysler Ms-6395 Certification - Oils Advisor

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33 gallon fuel tank, factory dual exhaust, 18” wheels. Build date: 03 June 2018. Now at: 066473 miles.

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This is from the 700 page printed manual for my 14,you'll notice the note at the bottom.They've since removed that note,as the trucks apparently wouldn't meet their cafe numbers well enough to keep the government nannies at bay.The engines haven't changed since this was printed for my 14,and 5W-30 was okay to use in it. If FCA thought 5W-20 was best for engine longevity,they'd have been mentioning it.I find it funny all they say about 5W-20 is it's better for milege and cold weather starting,nothing mentioning it's best for the longevity of the engine

Metallurgy of early engine manufacturers required detergents and minerals,
the salesman behind the counter was trying to up sale you and you really can’t blame him with minimum wage still below poverty level and fuel prices at an all time high and climbing.
To be specific
It’s only recently that vehicle manufacturers have approved
full synthetic. warranty materials I received when I bought (2016) were saying I could only use detergent motor oil .

Detergent oils were used because synthetics weren’t advanced in chemical composition to suspend the minerals that remove and neutralize contaminates

It’s only recently that the vehicle manufacturers give synthetic oil recommendations and warranty specifications .

FCA used to recommend 5w-20,
FCA now recommends 0w-20

Modern vehicle engineers computerized CNC machinists can create clearance tolerances that have become smaller and smaller requiring more complex lubricants that remove heat and carbon deposits through tighter spaces and still not cook and coke up

The advancements have happened within a relatively short period of time and to some people that studied the science and chemistry of lubricants for engine performance are skeptical of the recommendations that are being handed down as being a economic strategy as cost effective in both vehicles longevity and contracts for product sponsorship.

Next time you see the counter salesman give him some respect for his knowledge and opinions.

Tighter and tighter restrictions are being implemented by environmental lobbyists that changes zoning of facilities and shutters them removing the services available and shared by other shops and rebuilders

JoeMiner67 said:

This is on topic, but from a different perspective. I am an OLD duffer. Back in the late '70s, I had a Honda CB350 motorcycle. Mobil 1 had just come out and everyone was going bonkers over it (and those were pre-internet days). I bought two quarts and at the next oil change put it into the bike. When I started it up, it sounded like the rod caps had come loose. It rattled and literally clanked. I thought I had blown the engine, except it kept running, albeit very loudly and with very odd noises. I shut it down, drained the Mobil 1 and added my usual Havoline 30W. The engine was its usual quiet smooth running self. I concluded it acted that way because the engine was designed to run on the much thicker oil in general use in those days and as I was adding the Mobil 1, it was clearly much, much thinner than I was used to using. I don't think I am adding much information on this issue, just an old anecdotal story. I have had three RAM Hemis and have only used synthetic oil with absolutely no problems. Don't try to get much over 100,000 miles on them. They have all been rock solid performers. Only mechanical problem was a faulty master cylinder on one well within the warranty period.

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I changed out the gear oil in sons 89 Toyota Hilux transmission. Could not shift gears. The synchronizers would not work with the synthetic slicker level 4 oil. Had to order the older StaLube level 2 gear oil. Transmission started working perfectly.

zogg said:

Yep…I’m pretty much quoting him. Funny thing though, he presented his argument in such a way that I almost agreed with him. He was very convincing and very knowledgeable.
I’m still using the pennzoil ultra platinum. Ha

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Deceptive people often excel at convincing ordinary people that they're right. When someone's regularly selling mistruths or trying to deceive, they often develop considerable skills of persuasion. The older they get, the better they get, especially if they come to believe their own nonsense.

It's not unusual that you almost agreed with him at the time. I've listened to such people present their arguments many times and had to go home and clear my head before I came back to reality. Some can be incredibly convincing. It's amazing how the right words can twist almost anything into something believable.

Whenever you find yourself in such a situation, never lose sight of the facts. Facts are far more reliable than anyone's opinions.

I had a Walmart moron tell me my 3.8L V-6 took 4 qts of oil, I told him it took 5. He said I'd ruin my engine overfilling it and refused to put the quart in. I went to his boss and told him to train this idiot....got no response. Added the qt. myself and told them to stick their service dept. up their ass!

IMO the question is better answered by an oil expert than an engine one, and what I was told is that the only real difference with synthetic oil is that the molecules are more uniform with less impurities, and this allows the oil to operate within specifications under harsher conditions and for a longer duration than otherwise, and therefor shouldn't be inferior in any measurable way. If an engine was designed for a certain weight conventional oil, the fully synthetic equivalent can only operate as good but under potentially harsher conditions and for longer service intervals. So while one could argue its not necessary or perhaps even cost effective depending on the price difference, there certainly shouldn't be a way that proper weight synthetic would break engines over conventional.

retired said:

good thing he is retired.....or he should be fired......he is probably the same guy when someone came in and asked for conventional told them they needed synthetic. Only oil recommended for my Hemi 6.4 is synthetic...

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THIS.
Man oh man. Unfortunately you will never find a consensus about engine oils. So much of what people take as bona fied facts concerning oil is subjective and based on experience.
I've heard old timers say "these new oils cause oil leaks!" Is that true? No, but what is true that oil non-detergent oils totally gummed up an engine over the years and a layer of sludge would often prevent a bad gasket from leaking. It is also true that switching to a high detergent oil would clean out the sludge and suddenly the engine has leaks everywhere.
I can also say " I've use Mobil 1 for 30 years and never had a problem!" That may be true but that is completely subjective and give little real evidence as to it's quality.

There is one take away and it has more to do with "high tech" modern engines than the oil itself.
These new engines designs are intolerant to neglected maintenance. Why? Because the design has been pushed to high levels for performance (because of emissions) and what that sacrifices is overall longevity and reliability. Consider a v8 of the 70s or 80s. 350 cubes say; but output might be 250hp.
Pathetic. Yes. A HP per cube was easily doable. Was a radical design in order? New technology needed? No. Just make the thing breath that is all. But with more power comes hotter combustion, more stress on components, less reliable. But consider the fact that those old low output engines lasted decades with poor maintenance even. Oil? Truthfully the engine really didn't care. Today the engines are thinner casting, aluminum heads and/or blocks, higher revving, lighter rotating mass, high piston ring lands, high compression, high lift roller cam, computer control engines. Now consider everything in that list. Yeah, those are all race secrets only guys with deep pockets could take advantage of all that in the old days. That is now the norm. The down side? Maintenance is super critical. No shortcuts and overall reliability isn't what it use to be.

Well walmart stopped selling conventional gold er... yellow jug penzoil. now its black label synthetic.so that's what I use.meets the chrysler spec so if I keep the receipts warranty should be ok.pretty much what my dad said oil is cheaper than parts. keep it changed and full and it probably doesn't matter.

I believe synthetic can reach higher temperatures without breaking down as fast as conventional, and since Ram keeps increasing the normal operating temperature range you'd be wiser to run full synthetic especially if you tow in the summer and see temps north of 250.

You can take 1000 Ram trucks and line them up, all the same color, same engine, drivetrain, same interior etc. I guarantee you-there’s going to be marginal differences in the quality of materials, tolerances and flat out performance. Just like firearms. I’ve been reloading for a long time. Put the same exact load in 2 exact, (AND I MEAN TO THE TEE!) guns and accuracy is going to be different. So what YOU use may be detrimental to MY Ram and vice versa. Generally speaking, yes, IE Red Line is probably going to extend engine life as well as a microfiber filter. All this “babying” the notorious “Hemi” is ridiculous! This engine should be able to run on Chinese oil and coffee filters! But…to each his own.

Dieselhorses said:

You can take 1000 Ram trucks and line them up, all the same color, same engine, drivetrain, same interior etc. I guarantee you-there’s going to be marginal differences in the quality of materials, tolerances and flat out performance. Just like firearms. I’ve been reloading for a long time. Put the same exact load in 2 exact, (AND I MEAN TO THE TEE!) guns and accuracy is going to be different. So what YOU use may be detrimental to MY Ram and vice versa. Generally speaking, yes, IE Red Line is probably going to extend engine life as well as a microfiber filter. All this “babying” the notorious “Hemi” is ridiculous! This engine should be able to run on Chinese oil and coffee filters! But…to each his own.

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Yes,everyone of them is different, my 2019 classic develop the hemi tick at 28.000km with full synthetic oil 5w20 shell rotella,but the conventional 5w20 oil kill the tick after 2000km,so from now on,only conventional oil for my truck.

Let’s not forget what store the op was at.

Marmay said:

Yes,everyone of them is different, my 2019 classic develop the hemi tick at 28.000km with full synthetic oil 5w20 shell rotella,but the conventional 5w20 oil kill the tick after 2000km,so from now on,only conventional oil for my truck.

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Is it safe to go to conventional after synthetic? I heard this was a bad idea. I have 31 thousand so far-no issues (that I know of).

Dieselhorses said:

Is it safe to go to conventional after synthetic? I heard this was a bad idea. I have 31 thousand so far-no issues (that I know of).

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No problem ,so farr so good.