More EPA Diesel Exhaust Regulations?

StNick said:

There is one thing about electric vehicles no one seems to talk about. All batteries have a service life. What will happen to all these batteries when they start failing?

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There are many things getting brushed aside in this headlong rush towards faux EV utopia.

1.Disposal of batteries full of nasty elements that are apparently not easily recycled at this time.
2.Cost of replacement. The pat answer is, "Don't worry, prices are dropping". OK...
3.For the low single digit percentage of the fleet that is BEV, I have read numerous reports of wrecks resulting in battery fires that can take an extraordinary time to extinguish.
4.The threat to first responders by battery fires.
5.The threat to first responders, and technicians alike posed by high voltage DC systems.

There are plenty more.

Don't forget the rare earth elements needed for conducting and corrosion. From our best buds Russia and China.

BossHogg said:

The current administration hates oil and I'm not sure why albeit you can bet there is money for someone tied to it. One hand of the administration is calling for electric-powered transportation while the other hand has either closed or placed strangling limits on US-based mining operations that harvest the minerals needed for batteries so that a better understanding of how these mines affect indigenous people.

One of the most obvious screw-ups from the folks that are pushing electric is where does the power come from on the other side of the outlet. I'm sure we have all seen our VP plugging in an EV. The video clearly shows they really do not understand the technology nor are they even aware of thinking about the source of electricity. I truly believe the folks pushing the "green deal" never thought about electrical generation. They think all of our power can come from renewable sources when the hard fact is about 5% of our needs can come from renewable.

I am all for electric vehicles and clean energy but it isn't going to happen by happy feel-good talk, it is something we will have to evolve into. Until then, we still need oil. The article the OP posted is more word-salad than saying anything. It simply says "we are going to throw money at a problem that really isn't a problem and it doesn't have a workable solution". And the money they are going to throw at it is money we don't have and will have to borrow.

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When the power goes off, I still have power in my home. In fact the local electric company who has a maintenance yard next door has been dark a few times while my lights all work and my AC is still keeping the house cool. No generator running!

I can make my own fuel if I had to for my truck. I haven't heard anyone even trying or thinking about what to do if power goes down. At 117 degrees you better be prepared at home to deal with it. It gets hotter every year here in Arizona. I haven't done something no one else can do.
The question should be stop worrying about who is doing what and do for yourself. Prepare for disaster and hope it never shows up.
Diesel is over 5 bucks a gallon. Can't afford it? Do something about it. Doesn't matter who is in charge of government. They don't control it. Nor is it a unlimited source either. Oil companies claim 50 year known supply left to use. You gonna wait till it runs out? I like hydrogen myself. Some like other fuels. No sense in complaining if that's all one does is complain. They said I could not get better than 17mpg out of a diesel. I get 27.3 out of one with very little in changes.
There are 1.65 trillion barrels of proven oil reserves in the world as of 2016.
The world has proven reserves equivalent to 46.6 times its annual consumption levels. This means it has about 47 years of oil left (at current consumption levels and excluding unproven reserves).

I see they hit all their topics (disproportionately impact people of color, low-income households, environmental injustices, disproportionately impact low-income communities and communities of color, these communities will continue to bear the brunt of these emissions.) The 2500 and up are called Heavy Duty.....maybe RAM should reclassify those quick.

BossHogg said:

The current administration hates oil and I'm not sure why albeit you can bet there is money for someone tied to it. One hand of the administration is calling for electric-powered transportation while the other hand has either closed or placed strangling limits on US-based mining operations that harvest the minerals needed for batteries so that a better understanding of how these mines affect indigenous people.

One of the most obvious screw-ups from the folks that are pushing electric is where does the power come from on the other side of the outlet. I'm sure we have all seen our VP plugging in an EV. The video clearly shows they really do not understand the technology nor are they even aware of thinking about the source of electricity. I truly believe the folks pushing the "green deal" never thought about electrical generation. They think all of our power can come from renewable sources when the hard fact is about 5% of our needs can come from renewable.

I am all for electric vehicles and clean energy but it isn't going to happen by happy feel-good talk, it is something we will have to evolve into. Until then, we still need oil. The article the OP posted is more word-salad than saying anything. It simply says "we are going to throw money at a problem that really isn't a problem and it doesn't have a workable solution". And the money they are going to throw at it is money we don't have and will have to borrow.

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Yeah, I hated giving up the horse and buggy too. Your rationale for defending continued oil consumption is to suggest that scientists haven't given any thought to where or how to plug in for energy is really, well, rather embarrassing (or should be). To imply there is no money interest tied to oil is ludicrous. And to suggest scientists have given no thought as to how to charge an e-vehicle is to suggest NASA never thought about how to bring astronauts home from the moon.

tjfdesmo said:

You may be referring to their ill fated idea to meet the standard without DEF for the pickups, while C&C trucks went DEF right out of the gate. This meant heavy EGR, oil dilution, etc. that gave the 6.7 a black eye right out of the gate, and drove the price of used 5.9s to the moon. Powdered rods, and head gasket issues didn't help either. The 6.7 definitely does not have the overbuilt nature of the 5.9.

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I read something recently where they are conducting studies on the use of DEF. Preliminary data suggests that DEF is more harmful to our environment than the exhaust emissions from the diesel engine without it.

tjfdesmo said:

There are many things getting brushed aside in this headlong rush towards faux EV utopia.

1.Disposal of batteries full of nasty elements that are apparently not easily recycled at this time.
2.Cost of replacement. The pat answer is, "Don't worry, prices are dropping". OK...
3.For the low single digit percentage of the fleet that is BEV, I have read numerous reports of wrecks resulting in battery fires that can take an extraordinary time to extinguish.
4.The threat to first responders by battery fires.
5.The threat to first responders, and technicians alike posed by high voltage DC systems.

There are plenty more.

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Well it seems to have changed. Its now 92% of those batteries are recycled. And getting lower every day. So the times have changed. Of course right now there isnt that many car batteries being recycled, and they are not the only lion batteries. This phone has one. Life span is over 10 years. Ever see a lead acid battery blow up? Ever been burned by the acid? For me dozen of times. Ever deal with a runaway diesel? Or going down the road and a engine or transmission disintegrates? Oil every where? Buy a battery for your truck lately? I remember when a new one was 18 bucks and lasted 2 years. Show me a 18 dollar battery for 18 bucks that's any good.
Every see a diesel motor home on fire? Usually starts in the engine compartment you risk the propane tank blowing up and gobs of toxic smoke. In fact going up most the hills here in Arizona you can the burn spots from cars and pickups that never made it to the top. You better believe that smoke is pretty toxic. Keep thinking about that gas tank. It can kill ya if it goes off. Thinking one car is safer than another car on fire can get anyone killed. There is no safe fire, there is no safe non toxic fire.
So let's look at real things. NHTSA concluded that the likelihood of passenger injuries in crashes involving electric vehicles is actually slightly lower, meaning that they are safer to passengers, than those involving vehicles with gasoline and diesel engines.
the overall cost of collision repairs and replacements of electric vehicles averaged far higher than their petroleum-powered counterparts.
Research by another firm, AutoinsuranceEZ, says battery electric vehicles have just a . 03% chance of igniting, compared to internal combustion engine vehicle's 1.5% chance. But nothing about how dangerous E85 fuel vehicles? Or complaints? If your a firefighter you've already had classes on how to deal with alternative fueled vehicles. And it did not cost them one cent to get the program. Its a 1 hour class. But let's look at E85. If it starts fire you might not see it as a fireman because of the smoke. But walking into a e85 fueled fire will burn you quick. It's alcohol type fuel, so barely no visible flame at all. I'm surprised nascar hasn't went to it yet. More horse power all around.. but it would mean more restricter plate races for sure. Dragsters prefer it. 20-30% more horse power. But like electric hard to find a source. As fossil fuel fades away plant based fuels will be more plentiful.

So yes we can all complain. But if that's all you do. Well everyone that pays attention will drive by ya. Like the guy saying he needs it for hauling. They have electric semi's that last a long time on electric. Coast to coast, so let's see what we the consumer can come up with to be different with a cheap alternative fuel and use it. Don't forget some diesels are running on natural gas. It will be around longer than oil it seems.

StNick said:

There is one thing about electric vehicles no one seems to talk about. All batteries have a service life. What will happen to all these batteries when they start failing?

Click to expand...

HEMIMANN said:

Well, if they're gonna switch to electric trucks, they'd better start getting the electric charge infrastructure in place. I don't know how far these vehicles can go before recharge, being much larger and heavier than commuter vehicles.

I use my truck for getting supplies and hauling contractor equipment. Can't do that with a Tesla.

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We'll need mini nukes to electrify the nation along with the accompanying infrastructure. I can't see wind and solar providing power to 330 million people here. My '07 5.9's my last. I carry a 2200# popup around. It'll go in about a year along with the truck.

mtwofeathers said:

Well it seems to have changed. Its now 92% of those batteries are recycled. And getting lower every day. So the times have changed. Of course right now there isnt that many car batteries being recycled, and they are not the only lion batteries. This phone has one. Life span is over 10 years. Ever see a lead acid battery blow up? Ever been burned by the acid? For me dozen of times. Ever deal with a runaway diesel? Or going down the road and a engine or transmission disintegrates? Oil every where? Buy a battery for your truck lately? I remember when a new one was 18 bucks and lasted 2 years. Show me a 18 dollar battery for 18 bucks that's any good.
Every see a diesel motor home on fire? Usually starts in the engine compartment you risk the propane tank blowing up and gobs of toxic smoke. In fact going up most the hills here in Arizona you can the burn spots from cars and pickups that never made it to the top. You better believe that smoke is pretty toxic. Keep thinking about that gas tank. It can kill ya if it goes off. Thinking one car is safer than another car on fire can get anyone killed. There is no safe fire, there is no safe non toxic fire.
So let's look at real things. NHTSA concluded that the likelihood of passenger injuries in crashes involving electric vehicles is actually slightly lower, meaning that they are safer to passengers, than those involving vehicles with gasoline and diesel engines.
the overall cost of collision repairs and replacements of electric vehicles averaged far higher than their petroleum-powered counterparts.
Research by another firm, AutoinsuranceEZ, says battery electric vehicles have just a . 03% chance of igniting, compared to internal combustion engine vehicle's 1.5% chance. But nothing about how dangerous E85 fuel vehicles? Or complaints? If your a firefighter you've already had classes on how to deal with alternative fueled vehicles. And it did not cost them one cent to get the program. Its a 1 hour class. But let's look at E85. If it starts fire you might not see it as a fireman because of the smoke. But walking into a e85 fueled fire will burn you quick. It's alcohol type fuel, so barely no visible flame at all. I'm surprised nascar hasn't went to it yet. More horse power all around.. but it would mean more restricter plate races for sure. Dragsters prefer it. 20-30% more horse power. But like electric hard to find a source. As fossil fuel fades away plant based fuels will be more plentiful.

So yes we can all complain. But if that's all you do. Well everyone that pays attention will drive by ya. Like the guy saying he needs it for hauling. They have electric semi's that last a long time on electric. Coast to coast, so let's see what we the consumer can come up with to be different with a cheap alternative fuel and use it. Don't forget some diesels are running on natural gas. It will be around longer than oil it seems.

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I think five minute recharges are around the corner. That'll be the clincher for most consumers. Existing stations will reserve a couple of aisles for the electric crowd with the balance being gas/diesel. I'm a homeowner in San Diego which has the most expensive power in the nation. Add $15-$20K for solar so it'll be awhile to even break even adding in the high purchase price.

StNick said:

There is one thing about electric vehicles no one seems to talk about. All batteries have a service life. What will happen to all these batteries when they start failing?

Click to expand...

mtwofeathers said:

Well it seems to have changed. Its now 92% of those batteries are recycled. And getting lower every day. So the times have changed. Of course right now there isnt that many car batteries being recycled, and they are not the only lion batteries. This phone has one. Life span is over 10 years. Ever see a lead acid battery blow up? Ever been burned by the acid? For me dozen of times. Ever deal with a runaway diesel? Or going down the road and a engine or transmission disintegrates? Oil every where? Buy a battery for your truck lately? I remember when a new one was 18 bucks and lasted 2 years. Show me a 18 dollar battery for 18 bucks that's any good.
Every see a diesel motor home on fire? Usually starts in the engine compartment you risk the propane tank blowing up and gobs of toxic smoke. In fact going up most the hills here in Arizona you can the burn spots from cars and pickups that never made it to the top. You better believe that smoke is pretty toxic. Keep thinking about that gas tank. It can kill ya if it goes off. Thinking one car is safer than another car on fire can get anyone killed. There is no safe fire, there is no safe non toxic fire.
So let's look at real things. NHTSA concluded that the likelihood of passenger injuries in crashes involving electric vehicles is actually slightly lower, meaning that they are safer to passengers, than those involving vehicles with gasoline and diesel engines.
the overall cost of collision repairs and replacements of electric vehicles averaged far higher than their petroleum-powered counterparts.
Research by another firm, AutoinsuranceEZ, says battery electric vehicles have just a . 03% chance of igniting, compared to internal combustion engine vehicle's 1.5% chance. But nothing about how dangerous E85 fuel vehicles? Or complaints? If your a firefighter you've already had classes on how to deal with alternative fueled vehicles. And it did not cost them one cent to get the program. Its a 1 hour class. But let's look at E85. If it starts fire you might not see it as a fireman because of the smoke. But walking into a e85 fueled fire will burn you quick. It's alcohol type fuel, so barely no visible flame at all. I'm surprised nascar hasn't went to it yet. More horse power all around.. but it would mean more restricter plate races for sure. Dragsters prefer it. 20-30% more horse power. But like electric hard to find a source. As fossil fuel fades away plant based fuels will be more plentiful.

So yes we can all complain. But if that's all you do. Well everyone that pays attention will drive by ya. Like the guy saying he needs it for hauling. They have electric semi's that last a long time on electric. Coast to coast, so let's see what we the consumer can come up with to be different with a cheap alternative fuel and use it. Don't forget some diesels are running on natural gas. It will be around longer than oil it seems.

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Recycling EV batteries is still in its infancy, and presents a whole host of problems.

A BEV semi grossing 80K and with equal payload to diesel that can go cross country in equal time. Baloney, no time soon. Short-haul drayage work, maybe.

Scott Sanders said:

Your rationale for defending continued oil consumption is to suggest that scientists haven't given any thought to where or how to plug in for energy is really, well, rather embarrassing (or should be). To imply there is no money interest tied to oil is ludicrous. And to suggest scientists have given no thought as to how to charge an e-vehicle is to suggest NASA never thought about how to bring astronauts home from the moon.

Click to expand...

I guess you missed your physics classes. Energy can neither be created or destroyed, recall that? To make electricity energy has to be used, for example, natural gas to heat water to make steam to spin a turbine. Electricity is neither clean nor green despite emotional pleas from our current president. Charging EV batteries is only 85% efficient, the rest is lost to heat.

Let's talk about the carbon footprint made by mining the raw materials to create an EV battery, and then the difficulties in recycling those batteries. Let's talk about solar cells, stuffed to the max with heavy metals, impossible to recycle, and start to diminish their output on the first day of use with a life span of 10 years if you are lucky. Wind turbines aren't any better.

We are better off continuing burning hydrocarbon to move us around.

Regcabguy said:

We'll need mini nukes to electrify the nation along with the accompanying infrastructure. I can't see wind and solar providing power to 330 million people here. My '07 5.9's my last. I carry a 2200# popup around. It'll go in about a year along with the truck.

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But it could if people paid attention. Here we rarely have a day the wind doesn't blow. It's enough for my wind gunny. I only needs 7 hours of wind to charge my one 10k battery. That doesn't include solar I have. 1800 watts up there. I wish I can say cloudy days are bad. But they are not. One way or the other I make power and never raise a finger to do it. If you say it can't work. It's you giving up, or listening to the wrong people. Only one other place like me has power when the lines go dead near me but they do not have the battery bank I have.
Learning something new won't kill ya. I'm stupid as they come. But I can do many things because I've learned how. I'm a prepper with a bunker to run to if it ever comes to it. Never has happened but no reason not to know how to live off your own labor. I sure won't wait for government to do it for me. By myself I could live comfortably for 4 years without stores, gas stations, electric over wires and running water. I know how to hunt and dress my own meat and how to preserve it. Seems the newer generations want it given to them.

Oh my gas is high, too high, everyone complains. Its bla bla's fault or some other guy. In US dollars this has happened many times since 1945. I've lived through all of them so far. Just seems more division in the states make it sound really bad. Buts the same thing as before. I remember when vehicle speedo only went up to 55mph. They gave big tickets to those going above it. Foreign cars were scarce. After that oil crisis they became plentiful. Same now same situation every one wants electric.

Stop complaing on the cause and solve it.

BossHogg said:

I guess you missed your physics classes. Energy can neither be created or destroyed, recall that? To make electricity energy has to be used, for example, natural gas to heat water to make steam to spin a turbine. Electricity is neither clean nor green despite emotional pleas from our current president. Charging EV batteries is only 85% efficient, the rest is lost to heat.

Let's talk about the carbon footprint made by mining the raw materials to create an EV battery, and then the difficulties in recycling those batteries. Let's talk about solar cells, stuffed to the max with heavy metals, impossible to recycle, and start to diminish their output on the first day of use with a life span of 10 years if you are lucky. Wind turbines aren't any better.

We are better off continuing burning hydrocarbon to move us around.

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So the sun costs money now? Ever grab a tool that sat in the sun? Now knowing that tell me how you make water into steam to turn a turbine? If you don't know then your wrong across the board and just naming excuses.

On a ev it's known it takes carbon to make it. But only 66% per compared to 69% for a fossil fueled vehicle. That's assuming no solar or wind power and a dirty fuel as in a coal fired electric plant. That's already a proven fact. Now dump most of the coal add solar and a wind generator to stop creating carbon and that percentage goes way down. Another proven fact. Generation of carbon is the issue. Stop using carbon as a fuel, less is used for fuel. Those ev batteries go for 10 years and the initial carbon use to make them combined with more green energy lowers the over all carbon generated for the life of the vehicle. Not so for carbon based fuel which is generated every day. Unlike sun and air. Fossil fuel is a finite use. When it's gone it's gone. But the real bright orb in the sky will keep burning and helping to create wind as well.

mtwofeathers said:

So the sun costs money now? Ever grab a tool that sat in the sun? Now knowing that tell me how you make water into steam to turn a turbine? If you don't know then your wrong across the board and just naming excuses.

On a ev it's known it takes carbon to make it. But only 66% per compared to 69% for a fossil fueled vehicle. That's assuming no solar or wind power and a dirty fuel as in a coal fired electric plant. That's already a proven fact. Now dump most of the coal add solar and a wind generator to stop creating carbon and that percentage goes way down. Another proven fact. Generation of carbon is the issue. Stop using carbon as a fuel, less is used for fuel. Those ev batteries go for 10 years and the initial carbon use to make them combined with more green energy lowers the over all carbon generated for the life of the vehicle. Not so for carbon based fuel which is generated every day. Unlike sun and air. Fossil fuel is a finite use. When it's gone it's gone. But the real bright orb in the sky will keep burning and helping to create wind as well.

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mtwofeathers said:

So the sun costs money now? Ever grab a tool that sat in the sun? Now knowing that tell me how you make water into steam to turn a turbine? If you don't know then your wrong across the board and just naming excuses.

On a ev it's known it takes carbon to make it. But only 66% per compared to 69% for a fossil fueled vehicle. That's assuming no solar or wind power and a dirty fuel as in a coal fired electric plant. That's already a proven fact. Now dump most of the coal add solar and a wind generator to stop creating carbon and that percentage goes way down. Another proven fact. Generation of carbon is the issue. Stop using carbon as a fuel, less is used for fuel. Those ev batteries go for 10 years and the initial carbon use to make them combined with more green energy lowers the over all carbon generated for the life of the vehicle. Not so for carbon based fuel which is generated every day. Unlike sun and air. Fossil fuel is a finite use. When it's gone it's gone. But the real bright orb in the sky will keep burning and helping to create wind as well.

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I'm willing to have a discussion but let's not make this an attack on any one person. Let us discuss technologies based on facts and not emotions or perceived facts.

Perhaps Arizona is a fantastic place to concentrate the sun to create steam. I'm in Michigan, we do not get enough sun to make use of solar energy. Also keep in mind the devices that are used to make energy from solar, are all very environmentally unfriendly, difficult if not impossible to recycle, and their outputs begin to diminish on first use.

Solar/wind energy creation may, even with advancing technologies, may provide around 5% of the energy needs. We will need to use natural gas and coal to make the quantity of electricity needed. Germany is a good study, they have thrown in the towel on renewable energy, it just doesn't meet the needs.

There is technology on the horizon, there has been good progress with fission reactors albeit, fusion and fusion doesn't fit any current political agendas.

EV battery life is measured by the number of recharge cycles they can tolerate, not by years. Current battery technologies are also inefficient, have a 5-year carbon footprint to extract raw material to make them, and are difficult to recycle and reclaim the metals in them.

Mohican69 said:

I read something recently where they are conducting studies on the use of DEF. Preliminary data suggests that DEF is more harmful to our environment than the exhaust emissions from the diesel engine without it.

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DEF is so harmful to the environment that farmers intentionally spray the the same components on their crops.
DEF is compromised of purified water and urea which when used in the SCR neutralizes/breaks down the nitric oxides in the exhaust to nitrogen and water vapor. If you remember from grade school science class the earth's atmosphere is 79% nitrogen.
The hazards of the batteries in BEV are over 100 times worse than anything DEF could create. If you want to get a real eye opener, look up the nasty gasses that come out of a EV battery pack while it's being charged. Not to mention when those battery packs go excessively thermal(catch fire), some of those fumes can kill you slowly from just a single exposure during an auto accident.

Sometimes the cure is worst than the issue it is trying to correct. I'll say again, I am 100% for clean energy, forget the green part because that will never happen, but clean yes. I have grandkids and I want them breathing the cleanest air possible. But we are only one country on the earth, we can bring ourselves to our financial knees trying to clean the air while countries like China, India, and others recklessly burn fossil fuels. This is why the Paris accords are so laughable, has anyone actually read into them?

I don't know but I would sure like to find out just how polluting a modern diesel engine is without the DEF and SCR on the exhaust systems. With computers, very high-pressure fuel rails, sophisticated injectors, and the ability to often have up to 10 injector events per compression stroke, that gives a lot of opportunity for a very clean burn.

How many know that under our feet in the U.S. lies the greatest concentration of very clean fossil energy on earth? More than any other country and experts tell us the reserves can supply us and our allies for at least 400 years and more likely close to 500 years.

HEMIMANN said:

Don't forget the rare earth elements needed for conducting and corrosion. From our best buds Russia and China.

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I think Afghanistan is rich in minerals for battery production. As soon as we left , China bought the rights for mining the minerals. Follow the money.

crash68 said:

DEF is so harmful to the environment that farmers intentionally spray the the same components on their crops.
DEF is compromised of purified water and urea which when used in the SCR neutralizes/breaks down the nitric oxides in the exhaust to nitrogen and water vapor. If you remember from grade school science class the earth's atmosphere is 79% nitrogen.
The hazards of the batteries in BEV are over 100 times worse than anything DEF could create. If you want to get a real eye opener, look up the nasty gasses that come out of a EV battery pack while it's being charged. Not to mention when those battery packs go excessively thermal(catch fire), some of those fumes can kill you slowly from just a single exposure during an auto accident.

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I read a blurb awhile ago in the news, for whatever it’s worth anymore., that def used in diesels kills plants and grass along hwys. The tree huggers were complaining. I can tell you the urea in dog **** leaves dead spots on lawns.