Synthetic Oil

Oil of Choice

  • Castrol Syntec/Edge

    Votes: 233 8.4%
  • Royal Purple

    Votes: 325 11.7%
  • AMSOil

    Votes: 396 14.3%
  • Valvoline Synpower

    Votes: 160 5.8%
  • Mobil 1

    Votes: 992 35.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 660 23.9%

  • Total voters
    2,766

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

Rod Knock

Senior Member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Posts
1,059
Reaction score
1,140
Location
NC, USA
Too many added gizmos = too many added potential failure points.
I know an engine builder who rebuilds HEMIs, amongst other engines. He also owns a machine shop. We've become friends, and of course, I discussed the HEMI more than once with him. He said that the biggest failure point are the lifters.

His opinion was that from the moment you start up a new HEMI it's on a countdown timer until you experience lifter failure.

MDS lifters wear out faster than non-MDS lifters due to their internal mechanism. So how you take care of your HEMI is very important.

That would be the short and dumbed-down version of it.

Good oil and a big filter, along with frequent oil changes is a good way to keep a HEMI happy and running for a long time.
 

huntergreen

Senior Member
Military
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Posts
12,187
Reaction score
25,933
Ram Year
2016
Engine
hemi 5.7
I know an engine builder who rebuilds HEMIs, amongst other engines. He also owns a machine shop. We've become friends, and of course, I discussed the HEMI more than once with him. He said that the biggest failure point are the lifters.

His opinion was that from the moment you start up a new HEMI it's on a countdown timer until you experience lifter failure.

MDS lifters wear out faster than non-MDS lifters due to their internal mechanism. So how you take care of your HEMI is very important.

That would be the short and dumbed-down version of it.

Good oil and a big filter, along with frequent oil changes is a good way to keep a HEMI happy and running for a long time.
Would have to disagree, I’ve seen 0 evidence that mds lifters fail more often than non mds lifters.
 

Rod Knock

Senior Member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Posts
1,059
Reaction score
1,140
Location
NC, USA
Would have to disagree, I’ve seen 0 evidence that mds lifters fail more often than non mds lifters.
This is what I said above:
MDS lifters wear out faster than non-MDS lifters due to their internal mechanism.
The internal mechanism wears out due to engaging and disengaging. It causes them to rattle/tick. I did not say the failure rate is higher, but clearly, there are more components involved that wear out.
 

RacerRon

Junior Member
Joined
May 11, 2021
Posts
29
Reaction score
29
Location
Missouri
Ram Year
2021
Engine
6.4 Hemi
The only way to get an audible tick is if the hydrologic section of the lifter fails to adjust the valve train to zero clearance. When this happens, the lifter will loose contact with the cam over the nose and hammer the roller segment when contact is made. This is what kills roller lifters. The whole idea behind needle bearing roller lifters is that the lubrication required is much less than a flat tappet design.

I personally suspect that the initial tapping is being caused by a varnish in the hydrologic section of the lifter that may make them sticky (for lack of a better term). I also suspect the redline is so successful because of it's cleaning ability moreso than the higher molly.
 

HEMIMANN

Senior Member
Supporting Member
Military
Joined
Dec 7, 2020
Posts
6,807
Reaction score
17,098
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Ram Year
2017 2500 Laramie Crew Cab
Engine
6.4L HEMI
No it is not. The 'whole idea' behind any rolling element bearing is reduction in friction compared to sliding surfaces, whether journal bearings or cams.

The lubrication of rolling element bearings is far more critical, because they are never subject to full oil film lubrication. They operate in the boundary lubrication regime of elastohydrodynamic lubrication.

I can send a screen shot for textbooks you can read if you'd like.
 

Rod Knock

Senior Member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Posts
1,059
Reaction score
1,140
Location
NC, USA
The only way to get an audible tick is if the hydrologic section of the lifter fails to adjust the valve train to zero clearance. When this happens, the lifter will loose contact with the cam over the nose and hammer the roller segment when contact is made. This is what kills roller lifters. The whole idea behind needle bearing roller lifters is that the lubrication required is much less than a flat tappet design.

I personally suspect that the initial tapping is being caused by a varnish in the hydrologic section of the lifter that may make them sticky (for lack of a better term). I also suspect the redline is so successful because of it's cleaning ability moreso than the higher molly.
I think you nailed it!
 

RacerRon

Junior Member
Joined
May 11, 2021
Posts
29
Reaction score
29
Location
Missouri
Ram Year
2021
Engine
6.4 Hemi
No it is not. The 'whole idea' behind any rolling element bearing is reduction in friction compared to sliding surfaces, whether journal bearings or cams.

The lubrication of rolling element bearings is far more critical, because they are never subject to full oil film lubrication. They operate in the boundary lubrication regime of elastohydrodynamic lubrication.

I can send a screen shot for textbooks you can read if you'd like.
I did not say no lubrication is required. The ep required is much less than a flat tappet. The metal based ep additives we're removed for emission system longevity as they will kill catalytic converters. This is the reason for roller cams. The additional mass in a roller lifter requires more spring to maintain valve train control. The savings in frictional changes in the valve train is not enough to matter vs flat tappet. Journal bearing is different in that it requires a constant fluid film to prevent contact. An air bubble in the film is very detrimental to the films ability to carry a load. This is not the case with roller bearings. If the failures were oil supply or construction materials related , they would all be failing at very similar intervals.

One constant I have noticed in all tear down videos and photos I have seen is varnish build up on non contact surfaces. This is another reason for my suspicion of the hydrologic section getting sticky. I also know that if the "tick" is happening due to slack in the roller bearing segment, no oil will ever solve the problem as it's too late.
 

Rod Knock

Senior Member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Posts
1,059
Reaction score
1,140
Location
NC, USA
I did not say no lubrication is required. The ep required is much less than a flat tappet. The metal based ep additives we're removed for emission system longevity as they will kill catalytic converters. This is the reason for roller cams. The additional mass in a roller lifter requires more spring to maintain valve train control. The savings in frictional changes in the valve train is not enough to matter vs flat tappet. Journal bearing is different in that it requires a constant fluid film to prevent contact. An air bubble in the film is very detrimental to the films ability to carry a load. This is not the case with roller bearings. If the failures were oil supply or construction materials related , they would all be failing at very similar intervals.

One constant I have noticed in all tear down videos and photos I have seen is varnish build up on non contact surfaces. This is another reason for my suspicion of the hydrologic section getting sticky. I also know that if the "tick" is happening due to slack in the roller bearing segment, no oil will ever solve the problem as it's too late.
Be careful. You might start making too much sense.

Seriously though, it's not just varnish. It's polymerization. Crappy run-off-the-mill lubes that run in a hot engine (the HEMI is set way too hot from the factory) will polymerize and turn into sticky gunk. That's cheap base oils and cheap VII for you. Out-of-tolerance lifters that came from the supplier are also a problem. Quality control is something they never actually fixed.

@Wild one ran his HEMI on Red Line 5W-30 for 100K miles before he tore it down to upgrade it. It was like new inside. But he also ran a 160F thermostat. When I had my RAM 1500, I put a 180F racing thermostat in it and performed a grille shutter delete. That took care of all the overheating issues. That engine is spotless inside. It ran mostly Mobil 1 FS 0W-40, and some Red Line 5W-30. Next oil change it will get some expensive flavor of 5W-20: Red Line, AMSOIL, or possibly HPL. My dad has the truck now.
 

Travis8352

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Posts
1,500
Reaction score
3,330
Location
Houghton michigan
Ram Year
2018
Engine
5.7 hemi
Be careful. You might start making too much sense.

Seriously though, it's not just varnish. It's polymerization. Crappy run-off-the-mill lubes that run in a hot engine (the HEMI is set way too hot from the factory) will polymerize and turn into sticky gunk. That's cheap base oils and cheap VII for you. Out-of-tolerance lifters that came from the supplier are also a problem. Quality control is something they never actually fixed.

@Wild one ran his HEMI on Red Line 5W-30 for 100K miles before he tore it down to upgrade it. It was like new inside. But he also ran a 160F thermostat. When I had my RAM 1500, I put a 180F racing thermostat in it and performed a grille shutter delete. That took care of all the overheating issues. That engine is spotless inside. It ran mostly Mobil 1 FS 0W-40, and some Red Line 5W-30. Next oil change it will get some expensive flavor of 5W-20: Red Line, AMSOIL, or possibly HPL. My dad has the truck now.
Im again debating hpl as my mobil 1 stash is dwindling
 

Rod Knock

Senior Member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Posts
1,059
Reaction score
1,140
Location
NC, USA

Travis8352

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Posts
1,500
Reaction score
3,330
Location
Houghton michigan
Ram Year
2018
Engine
5.7 hemi

HEMIMANN

Senior Member
Supporting Member
Military
Joined
Dec 7, 2020
Posts
6,807
Reaction score
17,098
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Ram Year
2017 2500 Laramie Crew Cab
Engine
6.4L HEMI
I did not say no lubrication is required. The ep required is much less than a flat tappet. The metal based ep additives we're removed for emission system longevity as they will kill catalytic converters. This is the reason for roller cams. The additional mass in a roller lifter requires more spring to maintain valve train control. The savings in frictional changes in the valve train is not enough to matter vs flat tappet. Journal bearing is different in that it requires a constant fluid film to prevent contact. An air bubble in the film is very detrimental to the films ability to carry a load. This is not the case with roller bearings. If the failures were oil supply or construction materials related , they would all be failing at very similar intervals.

One constant I have noticed in all tear down videos and photos I have seen is varnish build up on non contact surfaces. This is another reason for my suspicion of the hydrologic section getting sticky. I also know that if the "tick" is happening due to slack in the roller bearing segment, no oil will ever solve the problem as it's too late.

And I didn't say you said 'no lubrication is required'. Why would you say I did? The ep required on the HEMI DESIGN is more than required for a flat tappet. Focus on what we are discussing here.
 

06 Dodge

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2022
Posts
1,900
Reaction score
1,781
Location
Forest Grove, Oregon
Ram Year
2022
Engine
6.7L CTD
Low viscosity GTL and a boatload of cheap VII? Thanks, but no, thanks. They can keep it.
I had better luck PUP 0w20 and 5w20 in my wife Journey's with 3.3 V6 then I did with Mobil One, Mobile One would trip oil change indicator at around 5000 miles, then local dealer in IA suggested I switch to PUP, I did and it never did trip oil change indicator again even the one time it got changed out at just over 8K, most of the time it averaged 7K per 6 months of usage...
 

Burla

Senior Member
Military
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Posts
23,115
Reaction score
44,461
Ram Year
2010 Hemi Reg Cab 4x4
Engine
Hemi
I had better luck PUP 0w20 and 5w20 in my wife Journey's with 3.3 V6 then I did with Mobil One, Mobile One would trip oil change indicator at around 5000 miles, then local dealer in IA suggested I switch to PUP, I did and it never did trip oil change indicator again even the one time it got changed out at just over 8K, most of the time it averaged 7K per 6 months of usage...
PUP seems to have the best uoa's around historically. They must be doing something right. I have used it in the wife's car most of it's life, way better then everything else I tried.
 

Rod Knock

Senior Member
Joined
May 23, 2020
Posts
1,059
Reaction score
1,140
Location
NC, USA
I had better luck PUP 0w20 and 5w20 in my wife Journey's with 3.3 V6 then I did with Mobil One, Mobile One would trip oil change indicator at around 5000 miles, then local dealer in IA suggested I switch to PUP, I did and it never did trip oil change indicator again even the one time it got changed out at just over 8K, most of the time it averaged 7K per 6 months of usage...
The oil change indicator/computer has no way of knowing what motor oil you have in the crankcase. All it does is measure miles and idle time. For all Chrysler vehicles we had in the past or currently own, it's been 1% / 100 miles. For example, at 1000 miles on new oil, the OLM was at 90%. If idle time was higher, it might have been at 89%~88% at the same mileage. It didn't matter if the engine was running on Castrol EDGE EP 5W-20, Mobil 1 EP 5W-20 / FS 0W-40, PUP 5W-20, or Red Line 5W-30.

PUP uses 100% GTL for base oil, and PP uses a mix of GTL and Group III. Group III base oils have the best additive response out of all base oils, when compared to PAO, ANs, and even POE. Esters can and are used with Group III base oils. However, Shell does not use Esters in PUP or PP products.

Shell has improved their GTL manufacturing process a lot, to the point where 0W-20 and 5W-20 use very little to no VII, neither do they need a lot of PPDs to meet their winter rating. For an API licensed oil, it's decent, just about as good as everything else that's competing against. Comparing PUP with Mobil 1 or Castrol is pointless. They will all perform the same, within the margin of error. Amusingly enough, even AMSOIL Signature Series performs similarly to the upper-tier API licensed oils like PUP. That's because AMSOIL designed it that way. The only "premium" thing about AMSOIL Signature Series motor oil is that it might last a bit longer in service. However, the TBN numbers that I've seen in UOAs at 10K, 15K miles for AMSOIL SS didn't look any better or worse than Mobil 1 or PUP. Conclusively it's a motor oil like any other. Suppose you want something that performs better than these oils as far as high-temperature protection and drain interval length is concerned. In that case, you have to move away from API licensed oils and look the boutique and racing/industrial lube manufacturers.

As to PUP 0W-40: this is an oil that covers a long viscosity stretch. Shell is stubborn about keeping this one all GTL, and the result is something that shears easily, has a high NOACK value, and doesn't flow very well at below zero temperatures. They might have improved GTL, but it's still not good enough to use only by itself in an oil such as this. When it comes to off-the-shelf 0W-40 lubes, nothing beats Mobil 1 FS 0W-40. Performance and value for money are amazing for this one. To get to such a performance level, Mobil 1 uses PAO, GTL, POE, and an esterized additive package. Then again, they came out with it in 1994, and had plenty of time since then to refine it, to the point where it's become inexpensive for them to blend.


My username history is publically visible. I thought this one was funnier, I liked it better. Since I no longer own a HEMI, it wouldn't be right to keep using the "Hemi" name in my username:

1653136337349.png
 

Forum statistics

Threads
194,925
Posts
2,864,170
Members
155,295
Latest member
atomota
Top