Ram Updates: What we know so far

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huntergreen

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Has anyone else seen the "uh-oh, we didn't think of that" circumstances in California? More an more people are buying EV's and now guess what? There's pretty serious concerns on how much longer the electric grid can support it! As summer approaches (and a heat wave now), between increased demand from air conditioners and now more people plugging their electric sh*tboxes in at night, they're stating there will be an increase in rolling black-outs.
Great job.....Make it more difficult and costly to use oil and force people to switch energy sources before the infrastructure can support it!

Who didn’t see this coming ?
 

huntergreen

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if the greenies want all electric, and you don’t use oil, coal, or nukes, what the hell are they planning to use to generate this magic fuel. One other thing, where will they choose to dispose of these lithium wonders.
My guess would be India.
 

GTyankee

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The gas taxes paved the road that you now drive on
gas taxes repair that same road as it needs it
gas taxes plow that road in the winter

Guess what my friends, those roads still have to paid for some how
Even if you have a Hovercraft

Anything Transportation related is paid by fuel taxes,
That includes any people carrier, including the runways at the airport, passenger trains, trollies, buses, etc.
 
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tron67j

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It is only a matter of time before EVs start getting more taxes in other ways to make up for what isn't collected now. Too much money there to be left untouched. In Maryland, it is about time the HOV lane use allowance finally expires. It is just as ridiculous as tax credits to buy a EV. If it is such a good thing and so much cheaper, why allow single passenger cars to clog lanes that otherwise require 3 people to use? And if you think about it, rewarding people to buy individual conveyances instead of giving free mass transit paid for by taxes on vehicles is just crazy. Yes, I have two single conveyances and would be adversely impacted by my own idea, but it is crazy we subsidize billionaires getting richer and companies making record profits with our tax dollars (how do you think tax credits are paid for). Either you buy and fully pay for your own dang EV like we buy our ICE vehicles, or you don't get one. Rant done. :33:
 

huntergreen

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I believe congress was doing a study on taxing by mileage for EV transportation.
 

Stavinksi

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Many states already have EV taxes to make up for lost fuel tax. My state it’s a large flat fee at registration renewal, regardless of miles, which some may perceive as less “fair”. we all benefit from others use of roads as well. From Amazon deliveries to emergency room staff getting to work to firefighters, we need roads and we all need to pay, whether we are personally driving on it or not, and no matter what fuel we are using to do so. It’s an imperfect taxation system in many ways but EV drivers are not getting something for nothing.
 

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It is only a matter of time before EVs start getting more taxes in other ways to make up for what isn't collected now. Too much money there to be left untouched. In Maryland, it is about time the HOV lane use allowance finally expires. It is just as ridiculous as tax credits to buy a EV. If it is such a good thing and so much cheaper, why allow single passenger cars to clog lanes that otherwise require 3 people to use? And if you think about it, rewarding people to buy individual conveyances instead of giving free mass transit paid for by taxes on vehicles is just crazy. Yes, I have two single conveyances and would be adversely impacted by my own idea, but it is crazy we subsidize billionaires getting richer and companies making record profits with our tax dollars (how do you think tax credits are paid for). Either you buy and fully pay for your own dang EV like we buy our ICE vehicles, or you don't get one. Rant done.

Well said - I fear the solution to this is what some states have discussed; pay as you go fees for road usage Vs. license fees and gas taxes. Since everything is converting to a monthly fee (Apps, Netflix etc) I can see a computer guy/gal out there coming out with an app that will make you pay as we have with toll roads that already exist. And with the accuracy of GPS nowadays, ugh. Just open your wallet and start dishing out money. If we know anything about this current financial climate is that anything is possible.
 

mikeru

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At least the horse is in front of the cart (car) instead of the cart before the horse like we're trying to do! While I'm thinking about it, the one's comparing going from ICE cars to EV's to back when they were going from horseback to a car with an engine doesn't make sense. First off, we have no one to ask how they looked at that change. Not even an apples to apples comparison so come up with something else! Pretty sure the majority would rather have a car! We'll never know!
Not only that, but the vast majority of the population weren't making trips across the country on a horse, or a horse drawn wagon. Those that did had an expectation that it would take weeks to complete. Back then a long trip might have been a 30 mile ride to the next town.
 

tron67j

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Not only that, but the vast majority of the population weren't making trips across the country on a horse, or a horse drawn wagon. Those that did had an expectation that it would take weeks to complete. Back then a long trip might have been a 30 mile ride to the next town.
Exactly.

I understand the point they are trying to make, that change happens all the time. But one could also point to electric had it's turn in the early 20th century and lost to a better ICE vehicle. Perhaps we are again at the point where innovation of new ICE technology kills the EV in the coming years.

But back to the horse analogy: Sure, we switched from horses to horseless carriages but range wasn't an issue because people were used to traveling short distances over great periods of time as stated above, and roads were nonexistent. Today, we go anywhere at anytime and can expect to come across a gas station that we can zip in and out. EVs, not an option as the only vehicle for many people because you can't do that.

Also, many studies (you can find independent ones in a search) point to similar conclusions, that about the same percentage of EV buyers earn over $100k a year and have garages to ensure access to charging (in the range of 80 percent give or take a few points). And one has to be earning near that amount to reasonably expect to take advantage of the full tax credit (that is how tax credits work). So we are subsidizing the top 30% of wage earners. If we are going to subsidize someone other than a Ram buyer, the goal should be to truly take an action that will reduce emissions (sorry, evs aren't the panacea for this), not help people buy cars, and mass transit would be a better place to spend those limited dollars.

Finally, people can argue with the thrown around statistic that Y number people drive X miles a day. But that is of diminishing value to people driving more above the mean, and at $57k for a long range Tesla 3, it is a no-brainer to buy a new Camry for $26k to tool around and use the rest of the money towards a new Ram that gets babied or muddied!
 

GTyankee

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There are communities that have free Public Transportation

Salt Lake City being one of them, in the City Limits, you can ride the bus or take the TRAX

Is Salt Lake City TRAX free?



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UTA TRAX and bus does have a “free fare zone” in downtown Salt Lake City where you can ride for free. If you start or end your trip outside the Free Fare Zone, you'll need valid fare.

.............................................................
San Diego is just about to allow school age people to ride for free
They completely forgot about Senior Citizens

Another thing about San Diego Transit, Public Transportation Buses don't even start running until about 40% of the work force is already at work.
If you live on the outskirts, the buses start at 7 AM
I don't know about most other people, but i was expected to be at work at 7 AM. Work was 25 miles from home.
If i took the bus, i would have to Transfer 3 or 4 times to get close to there
 

runamuck

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americans are more spread out than europeans. we tend to live where we want and commute while historically in other parts of the word towns grow up around factories and the folks live near where they work. also those places are more compact and the folks are used to paying a large portion of their income for public services so they expect them to be better.
 

mikeru

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Another thing about San Diego Transit, Public Transportation Buses don't even start running until about 40% of the work force is already at work.
If you live on the outskirts, the buses start at 7 AM
I don't know about most other people, but i was expected to be at work at 7 AM. Work was 25 miles from home.
If i took the bus, i would have to Transfer 3 or 4 times to get close to there
I had similar issues when I lived in Phoenix. I was able to adapt to their schedule, but it was more than inconvenient. Now I live in a rural town, and work in a town that's 16 miles away, separated by nothing but farm land. There is no public transportation between these two towns. Sure, I could move to the town I work in, but houses there cost almost twice as much as the town I live in. Public transportation is even less of an option than EV for me.
 

tjfdesmo

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Horse vs Automobile.
Did the government outlaw horses?
Did the government outlaw and/or restrict hay and feed production?
The free market chose. It was not by governement mandate. The Amish still use horses, by choice.

When EVs make sense, I will take a look. Until then, they can jam their c-o-m-m-i-e mandates.
 

Docwagon1776

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Horse vs Automobile.
Did the government outlaw horses?
Did the government outlaw and/or restrict hay and feed production?
The free market chose. It was not by governement mandate. The Amish still use horses, by choice.

When EVs make sense, I will take a look. Until then, they can jam their c-o-m-m-i-e mandates.

Did the gov't outlaw horses? No, but many did implement restrictions on horses in cities, as well as 'anti-cruelty' laws that mandated greater care (and reduced hours) for the animals since a working horse's life in the city was often pretty short. The free market often doesn't take into consideration hidden costs and costs past on to society at large, such as removing large amounts of horse **** in the roads, the drawing of insects and the cost of the public health, or the general unpleasantness of the smell of ***** and feces in the street.

Do some research on early NYC laws during the early transition to automobiles, as it's one of the best documented, if you are actually interested.

(side note: apparently '****' does not trigger the naughty word filter here, but f e c e s does. Odd, that.)
 

GTyankee

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When Automobiles & horses were on the village, town, etc. street.
Something like a 1/2 mile outside of town, some with a Red Flag or Red Lantern, had to walk a certain distance ahead of that automobile. If a horse drawn conveyance was about to be passed, the automobile had to stop.

After the area got more automobiles, they had to drag boards behind horses, to smooth out the street. Now automobiles could have smoother rides & ruts were removed from the roads, which also made it easier for pedestrians to cross the road.
Back in that time period, cars & trucks were always backfiring, scaring the animals & people were always hurt.

The people that were able to own a Steam or Kerosene powered vehicle were rich, & all these rules were a real pain in the backside, so guess where the horses had to go.
Horses were not allowed on the Main Street any more, they had to use the back streets.
Businesses had to have a delivery entrance in the rear.

When the horses were no longer on Main Street, the pedestrians were much happier
 

GTyankee

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In England ... Steam Powered Locomotive
( Delivery Truck & trailers )

Firstly, at least three persons shall be employed to drive or conduct such locomotive, and if more than two wagons or carriages he attached thereto, an additional person shall be employed, who shall take charge of such wagons or carriages :Secondly, one of such persons, while any locomotive is in motion, shall precede such locomotive on foot by not less than sixty yards, and shall carry a red flag constantly displayed, and shall warn the riders and drivers of horses of the approach of such locomotives, and shall signal the driver thereof when it shall be necessary to stop, and shall assist horses, and carriages drawn by horses, passing the same.
 

GTyankee

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2017 NHTSA Rule

Last month the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration proposed a new rule that would require all electric and gas-electric hybrid vehicles to make a noise when they're traveling under 18 miles per hour. This noise would alert pedestrians and cyclists to the presence of a car, since most of us have grown up conditioned to the noise of the automobile on the street -- that relatively loud, gas-powered car that has dominated the roadways of the 20th century. The proposal is currently open for public input but the final rule will be set by next month.
 

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So to put out another thought, I have been doing some research into the mining of lithium. I don't have all the details of every operation to mine it, but overall it appears to be yet another area to understand if the world is to move towards more EVs. It can be disruptive to the environment and release a good deal of carbon into the atmosphere. I just wonder how impactful this will be moving forward and what kind of controls will be in place in areas where most lithium comes from.
I spent 47 years in the mining industry and understand very well what it takes to mine base metals, precious metals, coal, and oil. I have read about Lithium mining and it is not pretty. The best grades of lithium are in Chile and China. These operations must mine 25,000 tonnes of material to extract 1 tonne of lithium. The rest is waste and must be dumped somewhere. The operation in China in particular is an environmental disgrace, the likes of which we would never see in North America or Europe.
 

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I am NOT on the train of everything needs to be EV now, but lets be realistic here rather than tout non-fact based talking points.

They aren't telling the truth about how dangerous the batteries are, how many vehicles have caught fire. -EVs are not a conspiracy theory, but it is certainly more fun to look at it that way
Not to mention, there won't be enough charging stations to actually service all the proposed vehicles. -Most EV owners are using home charging, so this is not a real issue, just one touted by those against EVs. Plus most households who own an EV also have an ICE vehicle that they use on longer trips. One day there will be enough infrastructure to easily road trip in an EV without planning out stops, but it can be done today relatively easily with some prior planning.
Next , has anyone seen how environmentally destructive lithium mines are? -As opposed to drilling for oil? Pretty sure every few years there is a major spill in an ocean somewhere.
Next, where are they supposed to dispose of all the old batteries? -They recycle them, already. The companies that do this are sure to be the next big thing on Wall St.
Also, how are average people supposed to afford to buy new vehicles? -How do avg. people afford to buy any new vehicle, whether it be EV or ICE? When a 1/2 pickup truck now starts around $50k when you actually add a few options? Not sure, but somehow they do because EVERY manufacturer has a wait list if you order a new vehicle, and they all sell for over MSRP. Even a Kia with a sticker price of $40k is selling for closer to $50k right now, so somehow people are affording it.
Where is the power coming from to create enough electricity to charge all these vehicles? -Whether or not all of these EVs were coming on line now or later, we have seen plenty of issues in Cali and Texas with their power grids (and the issue is NOT EV charging at the moment), so the grid needs work. EVs becoming more popular just might make people realize sooner how much needs to be done.

I beg to differ on some of your points:
"One day there will be enough infrastructure..." One day is subjective. That undertaking would require charging stations every 250 miles minimum, covering a huge portion of the continental US. Think about the feat of installing charging stations every 250 miles as your driving I-70 through Kansas & Colorado, I-40 through the Arizona dessert, I-80 through Nevada and Utah. Power lines don't even exist on or near long stretches of those highways. And how many charging stations will you install...2, 10, 20? Assume even 50% of the population will have EVs. Now imagine 2 charging stations that take at least an hour. We can barely keep roads paved and lines painted in many parts of the country, let alone stringing tens of thousands of miles of power lines and installing thousands of charging stations. Will all of these charging stations be the more expensive fast-charge units? Or will you have to wait an hour or so? It's monumental in material, labor & cost. It takes 8, 10 months even close to a year to re-route a road and build an overpass. It took years for most states to change out highway lights to LEDs - and they came with an immediate savings. The undertaking is mind-boggling.

"They recycle them, already" They do, but allow me to plagiarize...."another challenge is the many shapes that the batteries come in. Unlike ordinary batteries, EV batteries do not come in uniform sizes and shapes. Rather, individual battery cells are arranged in modules that are themselves organized in a pack sealed with nearly unbreakable glues. With so many different form factors, disassembling and recycling each one can take hours, raising the cost of the materials to the point where it's currently cheaper for manufacturers to buy new materials than recycled ones."

"How do avg. people afford to buy any new vehicle, whether it be EV or ICE?" Many people drive cars until they die, sometimes by choice many times by no choice. When regulations are making oil less attainable and less affordable and eventual penalties almost forcing the use of EV's, you will now force people to buy EV's. How do those that would normally drive a ****** till it dies accomplish that? EV's come with a price tag and maintenance that some cannot afford. That's why only an upper portion of society drives them at this point in time.

EV's are good for relatively local driving, period.
 
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