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HK1837 · Jun 21, 2022

tidefan1967 said:
Decent? That was spectacular! The highest horsepower any Corvette made from the smog area was like 195 HP in 1979. I bet that truck won a lot of drag races especially if it had some decent gears in it!

Different Horsepower rating though. SAE Gross versus SAE Net. Using a GM example as I know the figures off the top of my head, the 1971 L48 was rated 270hp SAE Gross and 210hp SAE Net (manual) or 175hp (auto). Torque for the same things was 360, 300 and 290 Lb-ft. It only lost 30hp over the 1969-70 L48 as they dished the pistons and changed the combustion chambers from 64cc to 76cc (10.25:1 down to 8.5

, rest of the engine was the same. After 1971 all engines were rated as SAE Net (1971 they gave both).

tidefan1967 · Jun 22, 2022

HK1837 said:
Different Horsepower rating though. SAE Gross versus SAE Net. Using a GM example as I know the figures off the top of my head, the 1971 L48 was rated 270hp SAE Gross and 210hp SAE Net (manual) or 175hp (auto). Torque for the same things was 360, 300 and 290 Lb-ft. It only lost 30hp over the 1969-70 L48 as they dished the pistons and changed the combustion chambers from 64cc to 76cc (10.25:1 down to 8.5, rest of the engine was the same. After 1971 all engines were rated as SAE Net (1971 they gave both).

This truck was only available from 78-79 so that 225HP was SAE net. My first car was a 74 Nova with 8.5:1 compression 350 that only made 145 HP so trust me when I say that I know the difference!

Badger 13 · Jun 22, 2022

Yes the stacks were functional. The 78 did not have cats, the 79 did, and it only came with the 360, 4bbl.

HEMIMANN · Jun 22, 2022

tidefan1967 said:
This truck was only available from 78-79 so that 225HP was SAE net. My first car was a 74 Nova with 8.5:1 compression 350 that only made 145 HP so trust me when I say that I know the difference!

Nova was a great-looking car.

HK1837 · Jun 22, 2022

tidefan1967 said:
This truck was only available from 78-79 so that 225HP was SAE net. My first car was a 74 Nova with 8.5:1 compression 350 that only made 145 HP so trust me when I say that I know the difference!

Yes you are right, I missed the '78-'79, read it as '68 to '69. It was 225hp SAE net, but being in a truck rather than a car made a massive difference to the power figure. If it'd been in a car it'd have been closer to 190hp as in a car it'd have had cats and restrictive exhaust plus timing to suit - just like the base 195hp L48 Corvette engine (there was an L82 option 350 in 1979, it had 225hp SAE Net with cats in Corvette, it was 350hp SAE Gross in 1970 with higher compression).
If that 360 lil red truck was a manual it may well have seen 250hp (maybe more due to its heads and cam). That is the problem with SAE Net or DIN ratings, although they give you real world info it makes it impossible to compare engines that are really identical except for exhaust and manual vs auto - you see it with those 1971 L48 figures I quoted in the manual and auto ratings. Plus in the auto, peak power is rated at 4000rpm (manual 4400rpm), peak torque at 2400rpm (manual 2800rpm) most likely due to the converter. That Express Truck would have had a modified converter too which would have allowed it to rev harder on the SAE net test rig. After 7-8 years of pollution choked engines it must have been a welcome thing!

Wild one · Jun 22, 2022

HK1837 said:
Yes you are right, I missed the '78-'79, read it as '68 to '69. It was 225hp SAE net, but being in a truck rather than a car made a massive difference to the power figure. If it'd been in a car it'd have been closer to 190hp as in a car it'd have had cats and restrictive exhaust plus timing to suit - just like the base 195hp L48 Corvette engine (there was an L82 option 350 in 1979, it had 225hp SAE Net with cats in Corvette, it was 350hp SAE Gross in 1970 with higher compression).
If that 360 lil red truck was a manual it may well have seen 250hp (maybe more due to its heads and cam). That is the problem with SAE Net or DIN ratings, although they give you real world info it makes it impossible to compare engines that are really identical except for exhaust and manual vs auto - you see it with those 1971 L48 figures I quoted in the manual and auto ratings. Plus in the auto, peak power is rated at 4000rpm (manual 4400rpm), peak torque at 2400rpm (manual 2800rpm) most likely due to the converter. That Express Truck would have had a modified converter too which would have allowed it to rev harder on the SAE net test rig. After 7-8 years of pollution choked engines it must have been a welcome thing!

The Lil Reds never had a manual,they were all 727 automatics. They were basically the 360 motor used in the cop cars of the day.They had better heads/intake and cam then the passenger car 360's had.The 78's were supposedly quicker then the 79's.

HK1837 · Jun 22, 2022

I saw that they were all autos, and my reply was based upon it - SAE net tests (GM call it a GM1 test) usually show up less power & torque for auto cars and a lower rpm for peak values. That is why I said it'd probably have been rated closer to 250hp or maybe more if it had been in front of a flywheel rather than a converter. The 2500rpm stall in the converter would have allowed for a better driving experience too than a standard converter. They would have been a good thing in the late 70's compared to any other offerings, possibly you'd have to go back to the 325hp 396 C10 from the late 60's or 1970 to get a truck with as much go. I did read that there were 2 x 440 powered versions of these red trucks built as Canadian show vehicles. I wonder if either survived?

Wild one · Jun 22, 2022

HK1837 said:
I saw that they were all autos, and my reply was based upon it - SAE net tests (GM call it a GM1 test) usually show up less power & torque for auto cars and a lower rpm for peak values. That is why I said it'd probably have been rated closer to 250hp or maybe more if it had been in front of a flywheel rather than a converter. The 2500rpm stall in the converter would have allowed for a better driving experience too than a standard converter. They would have been a good thing in the late 70's compared to any other offerings, possibly you'd have to go back to the 325hp 396 C10 from the late 60's or 1970 to get a truck with as much go. I did read that there were 2 x 440 powered versions of these red trucks built as Canadian show vehicles. I wonder if either survived?

They never put a 396 in a 60's or 70's C10,they were 402's,same engine they put in the early 70's Monte Carlo's etc.GM actually called them 400's,they were a .030 over 396,but they weren't called 396's when they were in a C10 or Monte Carlo.BTW they don't dyno the engine with a torque convertor on it,not sure where you've seen an engine dyno with the capability of hyd filling a torque convertor so it'd work.The Warlocks could be had with a 400 and i think they did make a 440 powered Warlock,but i've never heard of a factory built 440 Little Red Express,supposedly they made 200 Midnight Express's with a 440,but i don't think they made any 440 powered Little Red Express's,and i'm from that era,and payed attention to the trucks,and i'm a Canuck on top of it,lol. They might have as Chryslers record keeping left alot to be desired back then,but if they did,i would think the hotrod mags of the day would of picked up on them and done an article on them.

Somebody on one of these pages would know though.For ***** and giggles i decided to ask the guys on the Little Red page to see if they've ever heard of a factory 440 built Lil Red. I'll update with their answers if they answer the question.

Answer:Sounds like they never made a factory 440 powered Lil Red,even for Canada

Got another answer and you might be right,as they supposedly made 2 440 powered ones for display in Canada,but they were never for sale.

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Burla · Jun 22, 2022

pretty darn cool rick...

Wild one · Jun 23, 2022

Burla said:
pretty darn cool rick...

View attachment 495988

Everybody knows about the Lil Red's,but not many people know about it's brother the Midnight Express Mike.I've heard that Mr Norms actually built the majority of the Midnight Express's.

The Midnight Express was painted black and featured a "Midnight Express Truck" decal on the door. Most Midnight Express trucks were powered by the 440 engine, instead of the 360 like the Li'l Red Express. All of these trucks were considered "lifestyle" pickups and were marketed to that audience.

Wild one · Jun 23, 2022

Well it looks like i started something,as now there's a post or 2 saying,there is no actual proof that 2 440 powered Li'l Reds were made whether for display or not. Looks like it's a bit of a controversial subject ,lol

HK1837 · Jun 23, 2022

Wild one said:
They never put a 396 in a 60's or 70's C10,they were 402's,same engine they put in the early 70's Monte Carlo's etc.GM actually called them 400's,they were a .030 over 396,but they weren't called 396's when they were in a C10 or Monte Carlo.BTW they don't dyno the engine with a torque convertor on it,not sure where you've seen an engine dyno with the capability of hyd filling a torque convertor so it'd work.The Warlocks could be had with a 400 and i think they did make a 440 powered Warlock,but i've never heard of a factory built 440 Little Red Express,supposedly they made 200 Midnight Express's with a 440,but i don't think they made any 440 powered Little Red Express's,and i'm from that era,and payed attention to the trucks,and i'm a Canuck on top of it,lol. They might have as Chryslers record keeping left alot to be desired back then,but if they did,i would think the hotrod mags of the day would of picked up on them and done an article on them.

Somebody on one of these pages would know though.For ***** and giggles i decided to ask the guys on the Little Red page to see if they've ever heard of a factory 440 built Lil Red. I'll update with their answers if they answer the question.

Answer:Sounds like they never made a factory 440 powered Lil Red,even for Canada

Got another answer and you might be right,as they supposedly made 2 440 powered ones for display in Canada,but they were never for sale.

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No, 1969 was a 396. Not the Turbo-Jet 325hp which I mentioned, it and the 350hp versions were El-Camino only in Chevrolet commercials. The C10-C30 were optional with a high torque 396 in 1969. 1968 it was also available in two specs 275hp and 310hp. Option codes were L66 and L47 respectively.
Here is a copy and paste from the 1969 Chevrolet Engineering Technical Specs, shows it clearly is a 396 (4.094" bore by 3.76" stroke).

1970 the pages are there for the 396 but were revised and made blank during the model year (August 25 1969 so just before 1970 model release a week later), only the high torque 400 remains which I believe is a 402 BBC as it quotes the stroke at 3.76" where the 400 SBC is always quoted at 3.75" stroke. Plus it is shown as a 4BBL and all 400 SBC were 2BBL from what I recall until 1973. As far as I know Chevrolet revised the 396 to a 402 in 1970 so it was bigger than the 400 small block. It was referred to as you say as both a 396 and a 400 depending upon what vehicle platform and range it was installed in.

Hemi395 · Jun 23, 2022

tidefan1967 said:
This truck was only available from 78-79 so that 225HP was SAE net. My first car was a 74 Nova with 8.5:1 compression 350 that only made 145 HP so trust me when I say that I know the difference!

My first car was a 1987 Monte Carlo LS with the LG4 305 with the QJet. 150hp of face stretching power with a 2.41 rear. However I could get 28mpg on the highway if I kept it in OD.

After a while my dad and I dropped in a 350, I had the 2004R built to GN specs, and had the rear end changed to 3.73s. Man I miss that car.

tidefan1967 · Jun 24, 2022

Hemi395 said:
My first car was a 1987 Monte Carlo LS with the LG4 305 with the QJet. 150hp of face stretching power with a 2.41 rear. However I could get 28mpg on the highway if I kept it in OD.

After a while my dad and I dropped in a 350, I had the 2004R built to GN specs, and had the rear end changed to 3.73s. Man I miss that car.

Those are still somewhat affordable down here if you can find one, 67-73 Camaro’s, 66-74 Nova’s and 64-72 Chevelle’s are totally unattainable for the little guy. Mopar muscle cars are gold every where, can’t remember the last time I saw one in person.

runamuck · Jun 25, 2022

Travis8352 said:
Towing in the summer i wouldnt want anything less than a 5w30 in these trucks at the temps they run. Is it redline 5w20?

no I have never used that stuff. all my vehicles have only got Mobil1 for many years. my two harleys too. I went with the 5w-20 and oil pressure stayed at 53-55 for the 1761 miles of towing from DFW to woodland park co. and back. oil temp got to 226* going up Raton pass at 3500 rpm. I pulled a 6000# 28' travel trailer mostly at 66-67 mph. on the Texas portion of the trip OAT was 100* or more.

EdGs · Jun 25, 2022

Chevy 402 was the rat motor, wasn't it?

Wild one · Jun 25, 2022

EdGs said:
Chevy 402 was the rat motor, wasn't it?

Basically it was a 396 big block,or as you call it a "rat motor" with a 0.032" overbore. Smallblocks were called "mouse motors",big blocks from 396 to 454 were commonly known as rat motors ,the 426 hemi was known as the "elephant motor" ,but not many guys still use those names to describe the engines anymore,lol

HK1837 · Jun 25, 2022

EdGs said:
Chevy 402 was the rat motor, wasn't it?

Correct. Folklore says small block Chevys were called Mouse motors as they scared the Elephants (the big Chrysler engines). Thus the big blocks became the Rats.

Big blocks were always larger than small blocks with one production exception. When Chevrolet built the Mark1 BBC (348) they did it as the small block was only 283ci. Later on the small block became 327ci but before it did the Mark1 became 409ci. The MarkIV BBC was released as a 396 in 1965 two years before the small block went to 350ci. The BBC also became 427ci in some applications in 1966. In the same model year the 400ci small block was produced the 396 was turned into a 402 and the 454 replaced the 427 at the same time.

The odd one out that was made prior to and after the 400ci SBC was the 366 big block truck engine. It was never a passenger engine though, only a tall deck multi-ring truck application engine although it did appear (or so some say) in certain Police spec sedans. Yes there were two specials built in very low volume in 1963 (the 3.75" stroke 327 which was 377ci and the stroked 409 which was 427ci) but these were for racing purposes only, never used as a production engine. The aftermarket industry copied the 377 idea many years later by putting the 400's crank into a large journal 302/327/350 block.

Wild one · Jun 25, 2022

HK1837 said:
Correct. Folklore says small block Chevys were called Mouse motors as they scared the Elephants (the big Chrysler engines). Thus the big blocks became the Rats.

Big blocks were always larger than small blocks with one production exception. When Chevrolet built the Mark1 BBC (348) they did it as the small block was only 283ci. Later on the small block became 327ci but before it did the Mark1 became 409ci. The MarkIV BBC was released as a 396 in 1965 two years before the small block went to 350ci. The BBC also became 427ci in some applications in 1966. In the same model year the 400ci small block was produced the 396 was turned into a 402 and the 454 replaced the 427 at the same time.

The odd one out that was made prior to and after the 400ci SBC was the 366 big block truck engine. It was never a passenger engine though, only a tall deck multi-ring truck application engine although it did appear (or so some say) in certain Police spec sedans. Yes there were two specials built in very low volume in 1963 (the 3.75" stroke 327 which was 377ci and the stroked 409 which was 427ci) but these were for racing purposes only, never used as a production engine. The aftermarket industry copied the 377 idea many years later by putting the 400's crank into a large journal 302/327/350 block.

There was also a tall deck big block 427 but it was only used in 3 ton and bigger trucks,but was often used to build 496 or bigger big block engines by the hotrod community,there's also the Mark V's that are 454 and 502 cubes and now GM is also building 572 and 632 big blocks,but not much is used from the earlier mark 4 big blocks. The 1,000 horse 632 was repotedly built to counteract Dodges 1,000horse 426 billet aluminium block Helephant.

HK1837 · Jun 25, 2022

Yes those 427 truck tall blocks have been used for some hipo engines! They are called GenV (and GenVI), they couldn't use MarkV as it was a Ford thing. I have a GenV 454HO engine in my shed, they used to be unwanted as the heads were unique but today's aftermarket heads fit them so they make real nice performance blocks, just need an electric fuel pump as there is no pump boss on them.

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