A Lot of Weird Service Suggestions?

62Blazer · Jul 1, 2022

Docwagon1776 said:
I'm curious who said it would explode or whatever other hyperbole you've got going on there?

As far as manuals, well:

Camaro service manual:

Note the Camaro is a bit different in that the brake fluid is also hydraulic clutch fluid, at least in my generation.

RAM manual doesn't have a service interval, but does acknowledge "wet" brake fluid in a manner very similar to what I said:

Would you like to argue brake fluid doesn't draw moisture over the years while inside the car's braking system? Or is the OEM also just being hyperbolic figuring 'wet' brake fluid will turn the truck into a nun seeking missile?

A lot of people neglect a lot of basic maintenance and see no problem. You think Joe and Sally AverageDude are changing their air filters on schedule? That a dirty air filter reduces performance and fuel economy small amounts is beyond intelligent debate, but they won't 'see a problem' because it's so minor over time they don't notice. Seriously, not that deep. Change your brake fluid.

You are making stuff up now.......and you still didn't post anything about scheduled maintenance requirements for brake fluid. All of the above statements basically say IF the fluid gets contaminants from an unique situation you should flush the system out. No different if you get a bunch of water in your engine.....guess what, the engine oil gets contaminated and looks weird, and you should flush out the system to get the water out. However you don't do regular scheduled maintenance for it. The air filter is also a very poor example as by definition a "filter" collects contaminants, and those contaminants come from what is in the air that is constantly being cycled through an air filter. Brake fluid is not exposed to air or any normal sources of contaminants (and also why there is no filter in a brake system........).
As I stated several times:
Yes, it is a good idea to replace the brake fluid at some point in the vehicle's life because it's cheap and easy. However it's not something that needs done every year, and it's pretty rare for "bad" brake fluid to cause issues, or be the only issue going on. If the brake fluid is really bad than likely something else in the brake system is in even worse shape.
A little common sense goes a long way in this. Sure, if the normally clear brake fluid looks like used gear oil with chunks floating around in it then change it!
Yes, brake fluid absorbs moisture....but to absorb any significant amount of moisture it has to be exposed to significant amounts of moisture. On a properly sealed brake system where is all of this moisture coming from? Even if the master cylinder cap is not 100% sealed you are still only exposing the brake fluid to a very small amount of moisture....a very small amount of air that contains some percentage of moisture. Not like the reservoir is under water with a constant drip of pure water going into it. By the way, don't say condensation from temperature.........condensation and moisture doesn't magically form inside a sealed vessel. If there is zero moisture inside a completely sealed vessel, there simply can be no condensation or moisture develop inside that sealed vessel regardless of how you change the temperature of it. Even if you get condensation inside the vessel it is only equal to the amount of moisture already in it, with it just changing form (suspended in the air versus water droplets).
In regards to my comment about exploding and such, ummm who made the comments about all of these wrecks caused by bad brake fluid? Sure, I was trying to get my point across but isn't scare tactics about how you will wreck your vehicle because of bad brake fluid pretty much equivalent to saying something will explode if you don't do it?

Docwagon1776 · Jul 2, 2022

62Blazer said:
You are making stuff up now.......and you still didn't post anything about scheduled maintenance requirements for brake fluid. All of the above statements basically say IF the fluid gets contaminants from an unique situation you should flush the system out.

Didn't read your wall of text. Nothing is going to convince a boomer he's wrong, got it. I didn't intend to change your mind, just give reasonable people good information. Giving you further evidence is a waste.

Brake fluid systems are not vapor tight.

Wet brake fluid is acidic.

Wet brake fluid boils at a lower temperature.

None of this is controversial and 15 seconds of research will prove it beyond any reasonable person's doubt.

Go buy a test strip and shove in your 'just fine' old brake fluid and see the Ph and the boiling point. Report back. Probably can't afford test strips if $20 of brake fluid every 2 years is expensive, though, right? Persist in your ignorance.

Dean2 · Jul 2, 2022

Docwagon1776 said:
Didn't read your wall of text. Nothing is going to convince a boomer he's wrong, got it. I didn't intend to change your mind, just give reasonable people good information. Giving you further evidence is a waste.

Brake fluid systems are not vapor tight.

Wet brake fluid is acidic.

Wet brake fluid boils at a lower temperature.

None of this is controversial and 15 seconds of research will prove it beyond any reasonable person's doubt.

Go buy a test strip and shove in your 'just fine' old brake fluid and see the Ph and the boiling point. Report back. Probably can't afford test strips if $20 of brake fluid every 2 years is expensive, though, right? Persist in your ignorance.

Talk about not caring about the facts, this from Firestone. Moisture is no longer the problem, you can't judge fluid by color etc anymore, it is all about the additive package breaking down. Of course Firestone has no jested interest in peddling this to consumers.

Thought point - manufacturers say unopened brake fluid has a shelf life of 2 years, but recommend fluid changes every 4 to 5 years. How in the heck does sealed brake fluid deteriorate. What is causing the additive package to consume itself sitting unopened but it is fine in service for 4 or 5 years.

Can any of you smell rat **** when it is being fed to you. Everything now has a shelf life, whether it makes sense or not. Food now has expiration dates, even Honey. They have found 3-5000 year old jugs of honey in various dig sites that are just as good as the day it was buried.

What is brake fluid?

Brake fluid is a type of hydraulic fluid that is used in brake systems to aid in the movement of the brake pedal to actuate the brake pads at the wheels—thus stopping your vehicle. Brake fluid is also a lubricant and anti-corrosion fluid that helps to make sure that your vehicles brake system works optimally.

What are the most common brake fluid problems?

Traditionally, brake fluid problems occurred when moisture seeped into the brake fluid, but the service issues with fluid today are different than 20-30 years ago. In fact, moisture in brake fluid today isn't much of a service issue because modern construction techniques of flexible brake hoses have eliminated most brake fluid moisture intrusion issues.

Today, brake fluid can be accurately tested to determine replacement needs. This is because the most common issues stem from the levels of dissolved copper and depleted additive package in modern brake fluids. The level of dissolved copper in brake fluid is an indicator of the health of the brake fluid's additive package. When the additive package of brake fluid is depleted one of the negative results may be internal brake system component corrosion and or sludge build up.

What is brake fluid corrosion?

Brake fluid itself doesn't corrode but when the additive package, which is part of the brake fluid, is depleted or breaks down, the brake fluid no longer has adequate anticorrosive inhibitors so corrosion of internal brake hydraulic components may occur.

What is brake fluid additive package?

Brake fluid additive packages are additives that are blended into brake fluid stocks by manufacturers. Typically, a combination of anticorrosion inhibitors, anti-wear additives, anti-rust additives, acid neutralizing or pH balancer additives, anti-foaming additives, and viscosity stabilizers are blended into brake fluids.

With usage of the vehicle, the additive package blended into brake fluid when manufactured will not last forever. Depletion of additive packages is the main cause of brake fluid issues; resulting in the need for brake fluid service in vehicles.

Some common reasons the additive package will be depleted or break down over time from vehicle usage is:

Heat or overheating generated by the usage of the vehicle's brakes.

Overuse or maximum use of a vehicle's brakes on smaller or undersized brake systems while hauling heavy loads can easily exceed “normal” brake operating temperature ranges.

Stop and go driving which can cause heat sinking and the passing off of the heat into the hydraulic system by the constant heat present in such driving conditions.

Low-cost brake fluids may have low-quality additive packages, therefore, the additive package will be depleted or break down sooner under the above conditions.

Thermal cycling or thermal shock caused by the temperature extremes of the vehicle's brakes under all driving conditions.

Common Brake Fluid Myths

Myth #1: Moisture is the primary problem with old brake fluid.

Today the breakdown of the additive package is the primary problem.

Before the application of modern flexible brake hose manufacturing techniques moisture was an issue. It would permeate through the hoses and into the fluid when the fluid cooled down. Modern hose manufacturing has eliminated this issue.

Myth #2: Brake fluid never needs to be changed.

In modern vehicles brake fluid needs service when the copper content is 200 PPM (parts per million) or more. This will renew the additive package of the brake fluid and the protection it offers.

Myth #3: Just changing the fluid in the master cylinder is all the service ever needed to assure fresh fluid is in the system.

Just changing out the fluid in the master cylinder will not remove enough fluid to enable the new fluid to offer the necessary protection enabled by the correct additive package.

Myth #4: It's almost impossible to remove/change over half of the brake fluid in a system.

The brake fluid exchange service at Firestone Complete Auto Care includes removing the old fluid in the master cylinder, refilling it, and then removing the fluid at all four wheels (performed as specified by the manufacturer), which removes most of the old fluid. The fluid is then tested again using the test strip to assure that there is no or almost no copper remaining in the system.

Myth #5: ABS systems usually don't work well after a brake fluid exchange.

If the ABS system doesn't allow free flow of fluid through the HCU (hydraulic control assembly) the FCAC technician may have to use a scan tool to actuate the HCU valves while flowing clean fluid through the system (performed as specified by the manufacturer).

Myth #6: The same type of brake fluid can be used in all types of vehicles.

Different vehicles with different types of brakes require different types of fluid. Our technicians will ensure the correct type of fluid is put in your vehicle, per the manufacturer's specifications.

Myth #7: There are no copper parts in a brake system so there can't be dissolved copper in the brake fluid?

The steel lines on a vehicles brake system start off as a flat piece of metal. It is then rolled into a hollow line and brazed with copper from the inside out making a seamless line. The copper alloy used to coat the inside of brake lines is where the copper content of brake fluid comes from. The brake fluid dissolves it from the interior of the brake lines and suspends it in the fluid.

18CrewDually · Jul 2, 2022

Honey tastes better than Brake Fluid.

Who wants to argue?

Dean2 · Jul 2, 2022

The beatings will continue until moral improves.
:cheers:

Docwagon1776 · Jul 2, 2022

I just checked my manual. No recommended service intervals for tires, brake pads, windshield wiper blades, shocks, or batteries. Obviously those must last forever as well.

Frontbutz · Dec 10, 2022

62Blazer said:
Show me factory recommend maintenance schedules for replacing brake fluid.....point being is that not all manufacturers and/or models even have recommend brake fluid service intervals in the manuals.

In the 2008 Honda Odyssey manual it says to replace the brake fluid every 3 years.

Docwagon1776 · Dec 10, 2022

Tominator223 said:
Brakes ! I’ve seen bad vinyl lines or caliper seal cause a caliper to lock up . However not old fluid . But negligents of service. Also water does Not compress . Put some in the cylinders of a engine & see what compress’ . It won’t be the water.

Liquids don't compress, that's one of the properties of being a liquid, but water doesn't always exist as a liquid. Once it's past it's boiling point it becomes a vapor. Vapor is compressible like a gas (the differences between a vapor and a gas are not of interest in this context), and why heated liquids in pipes cause issues like vapor lock in fuel lines and reduced function in hydraulic lines.

Brakes work by turning motion in to heat. Once they are heat soaked you get brake fade, and brake fade suuuucks. The heat from the pads/rotors migrates to the calipers and then into the fluid, heating it. Once it's past it's boiling point, vapor forms in the line. Vapor is compressible. Now you have both brake fade (which, again, suuuuucks) and reduced movement of the pads as compression occurs in the brake line instead of moving the pistons that move the pads. Brakes are only air cooled, some vehicles do a better job than others of directing air flow to the brakes, but it takes awhile for calipers and fluid to cool back down. While most people aren't driving EVOC style or racing, brakes still get hot in mundane situations. Ever have your window down and smell hot brakes near certain tricky merging areas on interstate on-ramps?

Water has a lower boiling point than brake fluid.

2020PW · Dec 10, 2022

Frontbutz said:
In the 2008 Honda Odyssey manual it says to replace the brake fluid every 3 years.

Really, mini van comparison.

LMAO, confirms these trucks are nothing more than soccer mom vehicles.

Jerrybob · Dec 10, 2022

A mechanic was drinking brake fluid at work

Every now and then he would drink a pint of it!

When the boss confronted him he said

"It won't become a problem now I can stop at any time!"

Jeepwalker · Dec 10, 2022

How in the heck does sealed brake fluid deteriorate....

On a couple occasions (over the yrs), I've ended up a brand new brake fluid container which was quite dark (bad) ..out of several containers purchased at the same time. Probably one container not sealed particularly well.

That said, in yer dealer brake bleed machines, the fluid sits in a larger container which holds a few gallons of brake fluid. I would expect it would absorb moisture out of the air and become discolored rather quick, but what I've noticed is it stays clear longer than I would expect. And we're not in a low-humidity climate either. Strange... (shoulders shrugged)..

Socalramfan · Dec 11, 2022

Docwagon1776 said:
Liquids don't compress, that's one of the properties of being a liquid, but water doesn't always exist as a liquid. Once it's past it's boiling point it becomes a vapor. Vapor is compressible like a gas (the differences between a vapor and a gas are not of interest in this context), and why heated liquids in pipes cause issues like vapor lock in fuel lines and reduced function in hydraulic lines.

Brakes work by turning motion in to heat. Once they are heat soaked you get brake fade, and brake fade suuuucks. The heat from the pads/rotors migrates to the calipers and then into the fluid, heating it. Once it's past it's boiling point, vapor forms in the line. Vapor is compressible. Now you have both brake fade (which, again, suuuuucks) and reduced movement of the pads as compression occurs in the brake line instead of moving the pistons that move the pads. Brakes are only air cooled, some vehicles do a better job than others of directing air flow to the brakes, but it takes awhile for calipers and fluid to cool back down. While most people aren't driving EVOC style or racing, brakes still get hot in mundane situations. Ever have your window down and smell hot brakes near certain tricky merging areas on interstate on-ramps?

Water has a lower boiling point than brake fluid.

Well said…… and correct t :waytogo:

Mister Luck · Dec 11, 2022

This is an ancient thread on second thought maybe only classic rating..

I’ve asked dealerships to write me up for a brake fluid change …for troubleshooting an issue that they can’t figure out if it’s warranty related at the time of service.

That being said I’ve never heard of a service garage or dealership just doing only a brake fluid change.

You might get a trainee to use a turkey baster to remove just the reservoir fluid without breaking the air seal of the master cylinder and just replace what you can see in the reservoir.

Other that that if you’re not replacing components on all 4 corners or the master , that is to say any major repair or heavy neglect flood damage or lengthy storage.

Brake fluid has the limited ability to remove moisture from the system on it’s own, because contrary to popular belief brake fluid systems are not “airtight”.

Flushing a brake system entails removing all the fluid and disconnecting all major components and using an alcohol base cleaner to flush the lines,.
It is really in many instances a “confidence” service to give the vehicle owner the satisfaction that the brake system was thoroughly inspected.

The time given to the dealership technician is never sufficient enough to satisfy a complete overhaul and more than likely if that extensive a service was warranted, replacement if the entire system would be an alternative.

If your vehicle ever sat in storage for a period of time exceeding 10 months to one year You would only possibly need to bleed the brake fluid in system at the wheels.

If your vehicle sat for a perceivably longer period of time for example 4 years in storage you would want to inspect the entire system and replace the brake fluid.

This would also depend on the location and if the storage facility had environmental controls.

Dean2 · Dec 11, 2022

Docwagon1776 said:
Liquids don't compress, that's one of the properties of being a liquid, but water doesn't always exist as a liquid. Once it's past it's boiling point it becomes a vapor. Vapor is compressible like a gas (the differences between a vapor and a gas are not of interest in this context), and why heated liquids in pipes cause issues like vapor lock in fuel lines and reduced function in hydraulic lines.

Brakes work by turning motion in to heat. Once they are heat soaked you get brake fade, and brake fade suuuucks. The heat from the pads/rotors migrates to the calipers and then into the fluid, heating it. Once it's past it's boiling point, vapor forms in the line. Vapor is compressible. Now you have both brake fade (which, again, suuuuucks) and reduced movement of the pads as compression occurs in the brake line instead of moving the pistons that move the pads. Brakes are only air cooled, some vehicles do a better job than others of directing air flow to the brakes, but it takes awhile for calipers and fluid to cool back down. While most people aren't driving EVOC style or racing, brakes still get hot in mundane situations. Ever have your window down and smell hot brakes near certain tricky merging areas on interstate on-ramps?

Water has a lower boiling point than brake fluid.

Your understanding of thermodynamics is VERY weak. Yes water becomes vapour above its boiling point, but since it evaporates at temperatures far below that, clearly it becomes vapour far below 212F.

Water does boil at a far lower temperature than brake fluid, most good brake fluid is designed to not boil till at least 600 F. No one said having water in your brake fluid is a good thing, we all know it isn't. The question is, how do you tell, why is it getting into the fluid, and how often do you need to change it.

Easiest way to know for sure, for 10 bucks you can buy a tester off Amazon. No more guessing and no more need to change fluid, just in case.

Different Drummer · Dec 11, 2022

OK, All this brake talk brings up a question from an old fart that has only worked on pre ABS braking systems.
After several dealers including the one where I purchased my RAM did all they could to dissuade me from my requested brake service at fours years of age on the truck I decided to go old school and experiment.
I do not have anyone to help so this is a one man procedure that I use on a 1988 one ton truck that I have rebuilt.
I removed enough brake fluid from the master cylinder to get it very low but not low enough to allow air into the system. New fluid was added. I then did an old school gravity brake fluid drain by simply opening the wheel bleeders on each wheel one at a time using the proper sequence of which wheel to do first etc. I did put a tube on the bleeders and submerged in a bottle of brake fluid.
I was surprised at how quickly the fluid flowed at each wheel. Of course I kept the master cylinder full and capped from ambient air ( humidity ) during the procedure.
Everything went smoothly and I did not get any dreaded codes etc. Good solid pedal etc. Truck has been over 10, 000 miles since and there are no problems.
Here is what I am curious about.
What part of the brake system if any did I NOT get new fluid to?
On my BMW motorcycle a precise and sequenced procedure was required to activate various valve in the servo unit for the ABS brakes. Specialized equipment was involved. I could do a wheel circuit exchange both front and rear by doing a simple gravity procedure. However, that would not get new fluid into the servo unit.
How does this compare to my RAM?
I informed my dealer about what I did and asked the same question. He consulted his factory trained Tech. and came back with the answer that fluid did flow through the ENTIRE system and a 100% exchange did in fact occur.
I am a bit dubious as the whether or not that is accurate.

Rado · Dec 11, 2022

Dean2 said:
Your understanding of thermodynamics is VERY weak. Yes water becomes vapour above its boiling point, but since it evaporates at temperatures far below that, clearly it becomes vapour far below 212F.

Water does boil at a far lower temperature than brake fluid, most good brake fluid is designed to not boil till at least 600 F. No one said having water in your brake fluid is a good thing, we all know it isn't. The question is, how do you tell, why is it getting into the fluid, and how often do you need to change it.

Easiest way to know for sure, for 10 bucks you can buy a tester off Amazon. No more guessing and no more need to change fluid, just in case.

View attachment 508592

What does that tester test for ? Water /moisture ?

Socalramfan · Dec 11, 2022

Rado said:
What does that tester test for ? Water /moisture ?

Covid

Socalramfan · Dec 11, 2022

Dean2 said:
Your understanding of thermodynamics is VERY weak. Yes water becomes vapour above its boiling point, but since it evaporates at temperatures far below that, clearly it becomes vapour far below 212F.

Water does boil at a far lower temperature than brake fluid, most good brake fluid is designed to not boil till at least 600 F. No one said having water in your brake fluid is a good thing, we all know it isn't. The question is, how do you tell, why is it getting into the fluid, and how often do you need to change it.

Easiest way to know for sure, for 10 bucks you can buy a tester off Amazon. No more guessing and no more need to change fluid, just in case.

View attachment 508592

Ouch……..

we’re here to help each other, not to make personally douche comments

Dean2 · Dec 11, 2022

Socalramfan said:
Ouch……..

we’re here to help each other, not to make personally douche comments

That wasn't very supportive. :33:

Dean2 · Dec 11, 2022

Telling someone that posts nonsense that it is nonsense is not being a douche in my books. There is way more misinformation and stuff that is just wrong already and increases exponentially as the result of people repeating wrong info they read on the net already. We dont need to add to it.

A Lot of Weird Service Suggestions?

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What is brake fluid corrosion?​

What is brake fluid additive package?​

Common Brake Fluid Myths​

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A mechanic was drinking brake fluid at work​

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What is brake fluid?

What are the most common brake fluid problems?

What is brake fluid corrosion?

What is brake fluid additive package?

Common Brake Fluid Myths

A mechanic was drinking brake fluid at work