P0172 will just not go away

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Woob

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I've been fighting these codes for months. I've got it whittled down to only throwing a P0172. I've changed O2 sensors. I've changed MAP sensor. I've got a new air filter and oil change. Changed the power steering pressure sensor. As I said, I am now, finally only getting the P0172 code. But I can't figure out why. Wouldn't bad injectors throw their own code? Can't find a vacuum leak. How can I check the fuel pump/filter/pressure? Any and all suggestions, comments, criticisms and opinions are welcome. And thanks.
 

LoneWolf3574

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P0172 DODGE Code - Fuel System 1/1 Lean Fuel System Rich

Bad injectors may throw a P03** code (cylinder misfire) associated with the bad injector; P0301 for cylinder 1, etc. Most modern fuel systems have a Schrader on one of the rails, you just need a fuel pressure gauge to check it. As far as fuel filters go, I'm not sure when Dodge started using a sock instead of a canister, but it is likely you have a sock on your pump pickup.

Because you are running rich, it is possible you have a stuck injector. I would pull them and take them to a shop that can service them. A good one will test, clean, balance them, AND give you new o-rings; at least the one I go to does/did.

The basics - Check your fuel pressure and check your driver-side exhaust manifold, you may have multiple broken header studs.

EDIT - I should have asked, is it hard to start? An injector stuck open will rapidly bleed down fuel system pressure.

 
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Woob

Woob

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Thank you, LoneWolf3574. It is not hard to start but, it does have a quirk. It almost never starts the first time you crank the engine. The weird part is that it always seems to start on the second try. After I changed the PCV valve, it started on the first crank for a couple weeks. Now it's back to starting on the second crank. Once in a while I do get lucky and it fires right up. But that is the exception to the rule. Thanks, again. I'll check some things this week. Oh, I forgot to mention that I have only been getting between 11-12 MPG. I sure would like to get back to the days of 17+ MPG.
 
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BossHogg

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I would think if you could find a way to acquire the equipment to monitor live data like the O2 sensors, fuel trims, crank/cam sensors, it would lead you to the discovery of the root cause.
 
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Woob

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The basics - Check your fuel pressure and check your driver-side exhaust manifold, you may have multiple broken header studs.
Fuel pressure is at 57. I forgot to check for broken studs. I'll try to remember to do that tomorrow.
 
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Woob

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I would think if you could find a way to acquire the equipment to monitor live data like the O2 sensors, fuel trims, crank/cam sensors, it would lead you to the discovery of the root cause.
I have access to an OBD reader. What exactly should I be looking for in the live data? Thanks.
 

Mister Luck

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A Cold engine wastes more fuel the sensors that start the fuel trims are the intake air and the coolant temperature sensor

After the engine warms the coolant and the upper hose thermostat located on top of the water pump starts to open (OE stock) 193 F fully open at 203 F

This also allows warm coolant to flow to the heater hose and circulate the engine block and cylinder heads. After the engine achieves this temperature a change in the fuel system gives in to a mode called closed loop where the fuel is moderated mainly by the O2 sensors and throttle position sensor

The O2s do not control startup or “open loop” fuel trims that is the coolant temp and air intake temp sensors.

A System too rich is either too much fuel or not enough air which is opposite of a lean fuel condition where too much air is present and too little fuel which can be caused by a faulty injector nozzle, pinched fuel line or unmetered air entering the combustion mix and the computer has not calculated the additional air and delivering too little fuel.

In the same, a rich condition components fault can be from poor computer calculations or faulty fuel delivery system , injectors clogged from debris holding them open and dripping fuel or an affected spray pattern not atomizing the fuel efficiently.
If a air intake temp sensor is unjustly reporting the incorrect air temperature or the coolant temperature sensor is reporting a colder than normal coolant temperature this theoretically can cause adjustment issues in the computer’s calculations.

From my past understanding the fuel maps in Chryslers are not retained and adapt with every 50 mile trip.
*(after 2003)

A Leaking injector can sometimes flood a cylinder and wash the cylinder wall of oil by seeping past the piston rings.
If this as you say a consistent issue the oil will start to smell like fuel.

Fuel trims can be monitored by a diagnostic reader that capable of capturing live data they are more expensive than regular OBD2 code readers but you purchase a decent one for under $200 US

A list of fuel banks are listed in the diagnostic software of the reader and it is usually self explanatory after becoming familiar with the systems and their functions most diagnostic software is proprietary but the standards are similar as **all internal combustion vehicles are homogenized by the OBD2 protocols .

practice test information
rich condition ASE

** after 1996
 
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Woob

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I have a high reading on the LTFT. -33.6. Causes? I am at a loss. I have been chasing this issue way too long. I can find no vacuum leaks. HELP!
 
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Woob

Woob

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A Cold engine wastes more fuel the sensors that start the fuel trims are the intake air and the coolant temperature sensor

After the engine warms the coolant and the upper hose thermostat located on top of the water pump starts to open (OE stock) 193 F fully open at 203 F

This also allows warm coolant to flow to the heater hose and circulate the engine block and cylinder heads. After the engine achieves this temperature a change in the fuel system gives in to a mode called closed loop where the fuel is moderated mainly by the O2 sensors and throttle position sensor

The O2s do not control startup or “open loop” fuel trims that is the coolant temp and air intake temp sensors.

A System too rich is either too much fuel or not enough air which is opposite of a lean fuel condition where too much air is present and too little fuel which can be caused by a faulty injector nozzle, pinched fuel line or unmetered air entering the combustion mix and the computer has not calculated the additional air and delivering too little fuel.

In the same, a rich condition components fault can be from poor computer calculations or faulty fuel delivery system , injectors clogged from debris holding them open and dripping fuel or an affected spray pattern not atomizing the fuel efficiently.
If a air intake temp sensor is unjustly reporting the incorrect air temperature or the coolant temperature sensor is reporting a colder than normal coolant temperature this theoretically can cause adjustment issues in the computer’s calculations.

From my past understanding the fuel maps in Chryslers are not retained and adapt with every 50 mile trip.
*(after 2003)

A Leaking injector can sometimes flood a cylinder and wash the cylinder wall of oil by seeping past the piston rings.
If this as you say a consistent issue the oil will start to smell like fuel.

Fuel trims can be monitored by a diagnostic reader that capable of capturing live data they are more expensive than regular OBD2 code readers but you purchase a decent one for under $200 US

A list of fuel banks are listed in the diagnostic software of the reader and it is usually self explanatory after becoming familiar with the systems and their functions most diagnostic software is proprietary but the standards are similar as **all internal combustion vehicles are homogenized by the OBD2 protocols .

practice test information
rich condition ASE

** after 1996
LTFT is at -33.6. I can find no vacuum leaks. I'm beyond frustrated. STFT are within range. :banghead:
 

Mister Luck

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Engine coolant pressure test to check for a coolant leak.
What does # 8 plug look like ?
Have you run a compression test on that cylinder yet ?
Maybe try using a “tool air hold adapter” to pressurize the cylinder and listen for hissing perhaps the spring seat is damaged or the valve stem seal leaks. You may want to duplicate the test on other cylinders, to further investigate you may need to remove the valve cover.
 
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Rlaf75

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Any luck with the cure yet? What's the vehicle information? Year make model engine size?
 

Ron Boggio

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air filter or some other restrictions in the intake system e.g., a mouse in the house
electrical issues, lose or damaged connectors wiring etc.
exhaust leak, check manifold bolts
fuel pressure to high e.g., pressure regulator
leaky fuel injector(s)
PCM, update needed
verify operation of other sensors e.g., coolant temperature, MAP or ECT
restricted exhaust e.g., catalytic converter, exhaust pipe, muffler etc.
**saturated carbon canister
 
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