Synthetic Oil

The "quiet miles" for my 6.4 on RL 0W40 were much shorter than RL 5W40 before tick returned. Sadly, I didn't try 5W30.

tjfdesmo said:

The "quiet miles" for my 6.4 on RL 0W40 were much shorter than RL 5W40 before tick returned. Sadly, I didn't try 5W30.

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Seems strange - forum owner data reports lifter tick related to oil additives and flow, not viscosity. Except for cold ambient flow reduction on startup, of course.

Why would sheardown of high additive oil cause ticking? i.e - 0W-40 shears to 0W-30 or 5W-30...so what?

Are the sheared molecules oxidizing and creating deposits that restrict oil flow in the engine? Seriously wondering.

HEMIMANN said:

Can't recall who @ BITOG mentioned star polymer vii, neither do I recall any mention of proprietary to a patent. Perhaps HPL sells it? Amsoil and Castrol 0W-40 didn't shear much either on the Blackstone report from BITOG.

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I was wrong on the patent, to much information i got some mixed up. He worked with shell on the development of star polymer VII

Travis8352 said:

I was wrong on the patent, to much information i got some mixed up. He worked with shell on the development of star polymer VII

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Thanks for the update. Yah, when industry changes are underway and marketers won't reveal anything, it's tough on us to figure out with our tribal knowledge.

HEMIMANN said:

Seems strange - forum owner data reports lifter tick related to oil additives and flow, not viscosity. Except for cold ambient flow reduction on startup, of course.

Why would sheardown of high additive oil cause ticking? i.e - 0W-40 shears to 0W-30 or 5W-30...so what?

Are the sheared molecules oxidizing and creating deposits that restrict oil flow in the engine? Seriously wondering.

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You know one of the issues with the GM lifter issues was the oil galley in the lifter's would get plugged as they were too small in some batches and that would cause the lifters to get stuck due to oil not getting through the passage.

Redline 0w40 was never in "super class" 0w40's, been saying that from day one. It takes to much smoke and mirrors to make both that thick of oil plus that 0 winter rating on 40 weight oil. Now, it "might" stay in 40 weight grade longer then super class oils, the only thing it has going for it, but imo it just is not the star in redline's line up. On that formula they simply got it wrong. Syn thread has been on that dog for well over 5 years, shortly after the 6.4 came out.

Back at the time when we were recommending 5w30 for the 5.7 and 5w40 for the 6.4, then we went to 5w30 for both or maybe all rams. The 5w40 redline isnt bad, certainly not as bad as their 0w40, but it isn't as desirable as the 5w30. We have a ton of uoa's that show zero shear on that 5w30, so it stays on the line of 30/40 weight from day one to the dump of an oci in most rams. It didnt earn it's nicknames lightly.

Burn2k12Ram said:

You know one of the issues with the GM lifter issues was the oil galley in the lifter's would get plugged as they were too small in some batches and that would cause the lifters to get stuck due to oil not getting through the passage.

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Don't get.me started - my final Chevy had 5.3 V8 with AFM. Started pumping oil 1 qt.per.1,000 miles @ 70k miles when I found out AFM cylinders stuck piston rings. Cleaned the engine out, sold it, never looked back with 2 Rams to date.

Did we overthink the new redline formulation? Dave said it was to address sp-sn+, which likely means they lost a little visc weight and CA level, perhaps zinc. Does any of that matter for hemi tick? Maybe, but then again maybe not. He did say, PAO/ester content remains the same as well as moly, his words not mine. Someone probably other then corey with hemi tick in the north should try this new formula when it hits, why? Because 0w30 redline was hugely successful with hemi tick and piston slap, perhaps the best formula for cold hemi tick engines. Yes it appears we might have a new option, hpl super car 0w30, but if what Dave said remains true, 0w30 redline should still be a tick killer.

Actually I had been asking for most of this as an option, the only thing I didnt prefer was lower operating temp visc. But lower zinc, lower CA, and higher mag is what I'd prefer anyway. Plus, wouldn't this be the best di turbo oil on the shelf? Still have high moly, pao, esters, and high detergency but achieved with higher MAG, wouldnt you want that in your di turbo more then most oils out there? Note, the smallest increase in lspi event testing was the difference from group 3 to pao, it is nothing like the difference in high zinc, high moly, high mag. But, yes group 3 would be slightly better in lspi protection, but considering redline had no lspi events reported with their current formula according to dave, now having a di oil ester based with high moly, just seams like a winner in a di turbo to me. My largest criticism on redline has been their poor di formula, looks like they are changing it and in theory it wont effect it's performance in hemi tick. As long as they didnt monkey with the formula, imo it would be even great if they did the same to 5w30. As good as it is, it could even be better for hemi's and di turbo's, both engines can win. Out testing proved zinc doesnt help hemi tick, so having api zinc would be ok with me, having higher mag would be ok with me, keeping moily 450ppm is ok with me.

HEMIMANN said:

Can't recall who @ BITOG mentioned star polymer vii, neither do I recall any mention of proprietary to a patent. Perhaps HPL sells it? Amsoil and Castrol 0W-40 didn't shear much either on the Blackstone report from BITOG.

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Lubrizol calls them "asteric" modifiers:


I think Infineum calls them something else, but I cannot find their page at the moment.

@Burla - didn't you say once Dave @ Red Line talked about reducing moly for their upcoming 0W API SP formulation? Or was that only zinc? Zinc was always meant for solid tappets anyway. Hence the high zinc race formulas, along with high temp capability of polyol ester base oil blend.

I know API SP requires rebalancing oil additives to a more expensive detergent/dispersant additive (less calcium, more magnesium) to eliminate LSPI, which shouldn't really matter to any of us with Hemi's. It's the anti-wear additives that are critical to our Hemi drama queens, esp. moly for some reason. Perhaps because it acts more like a dry film lubricant than Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, which eats steel at a slow, sacrificial rate (a mild EP additive, if you will).

Yes, @Burla created another hoarder........

HEMIMANN said:

All I did was shade in green a statistically better performance data between the two brands. If I shaded both, it means they were near equal. If I could attach the excel spreadsheet instead of a screen photo into the forum, you could see it much better. But it's not capable of it.

The thing you can see with HPL Performance Plus and Super Car is the use of API Group IV PAO base oil stock instead of Group III, pushing the CCS & pour point capability down to colder temperatures. But it made no difference in shear resistance (HTHS).

I guess HPL doesn't seem to be anything special compared to Red Line - EXCEPT with Red Line 0W High Performance Series going away, being replaced by some consumer API SP recipe. In that case, the HPL would be an acceptable substitute.

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CCS/MRV are the most relevant indicators of cold temp behavior. Keep in mind that their Super Car oils are essentially a "full SAPS Euro" additive system; I believe it is VW 502.00 chemistry. So, very different than the API SP style chemistry that their other oils are using.

Burla said:

5w20, no vii's, that 0w40 has plenty.

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If you say so. Did you miss my earlier post on why I think their 5W20 still has VII?

The Critic said:

CCS/MRV are the most relevant indicators of cold temp behavior. Keep in mind that their Super Car oils are essentially a "full SAPS Euro" additive system; I believe it is VW 502.00 chemistry. So, very different than the API SP style chemistry that their other oils are using.

If you say so. Did you miss my earlier post on why I think their 5W20 still has VII?

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either way, it certainly has less vii. But that was a redline post and dave from redline says it doesnt have vii.

HEMIMANN said:

@Burla - didn't you say once Dave @ Red Line talked about reducing moly for their upcoming 0W API SP formulation? Or was that only zinc? Zinc was always meant for solid tappets anyway. Hence the high zinc race formulas, along with high temp capability of polyol ester base oil blend.

I know API SP requires rebalancing oil additives to a more expensive detergent/dispersant additive (less calcium, more magnesium) to eliminate LSPI, which shouldn't really matter to any of us with Hemi's. It's the anti-wear additives that are critical to our Hemi drama queens, esp. moly for some reason. Perhaps because it acts more like a dry film lubricant than Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, which eats steel at a slow, sacrificial rate (a mild EP additive, if you will).

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to be 100%, I just don't remember, I posted his email, that is all I got. I think we were chapped because the viscosity was lower, I still think it has potential either way based on what the email said. Like everything else, ram forum will decide when ram forum runs it.

I have emailed dave hardly at all, I will ask him again of redline and vii's. Sadly, lately is less forthcoming with formula, but I can try.

I will just ask it this way, is there any redline weight that doesnt contain viscosity index improvers, and post it.

Burla said:

I have emailed dave hardly at all, I will ask him again of redline and vii's. Sadly, lately is less forthcoming with formula, but I can try.

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Either way, a 5W20 that is PAO based will probably have a minimal quantity of VII, if any. So in the grand scheme of things, it is really a mute point.

agreed, totally mute point, but still why not ask? already sent it, asked about multi grade. we will see.

Oddly, in the battle of hemi tick as ram forum regulars know about my truck with recordings, the only redline that had some tick was 10w30, which notably didnt have vii's. So in the battle of hemi tick, maybe vii's help some. These arent "short" tests, the truck ticked throughout that interval, but doesnt tick throughout other weights entire interval. It is what it is, I report the results there are somethings left unexplained.