Synthetic Oil

HEMIMANN · Aug 4, 2022

VI would need to be >200 to yield 15W-50.

Interweb said oils with VI up to 400 are 'available', but no mention was made of what or who in 15 minutes I searched.
Magic Mouse Milk is still in vogue.

HEMIMANN · Aug 4, 2022

Travis8352 said:
Are you talking base oils or finished lubricants?

Base oil blend. No vii additive. 15W-50. Wtaf?!

Burla · Aug 4, 2022

Wild one said:
They'll run right around 185 with a 180 t-stat.My oil temps don't really apply to most,but on a 90F day and 75mph they'll run between 190 to 195 .Even with a 160 thermostat the evic will still show engine temps of 185,but oil temps on mine will drop down to 185 to 190,and the heater output sucks,lol.I'm not so sure if the evic is actually all that acurate,when it shows the same engine temps with either a 160 / 170 or 180 thermostat,but you can tell the coolant isn't the same temp,just by putting your hand by the heater

right on, so if you can get the oil cooler, a 5w20 is like running 5w30. Guys who want to run warranty 5w20 but want the protection of a 5w30, well oil viscosity is only related to temp, change the oil temp you change it's viscosity. Get that oil to operate at 194 instead of the 100c, you gain 2 points viscosity.

HEMIMANN · Aug 4, 2022

@Wild one I like the EVIC just for the flashing lights. They're entertaining - like a fidget spinner.

Travis8352 · Aug 4, 2022

HEMIMANN said:
Base oil blend. No vii additive. 15W-50. Wtaf?!

Redlines 15w50 has a viscosity index of 162. As far as individual base oils the highest viscosity index i have seen so far are mobils 150 cst mpao and 300cst mpao.

Mobil 1 esp x3 0w40 viscosity index is 204! Thing is full of VIIs

Burla · Aug 4, 2022

You know the scary part about running 5w20, it isn't operating temp viscosity which we all have learned to love, but rather what happens when that oil is 230f? How thin is it then? The cooling system usually keeps t stat temp fairly easily, but the longer the trip the hotter the oil gets on a hot day, and the oil gets much thinner. Have a great worry fun summer everyone, ha.

Rod Knock · Aug 4, 2022

Burla said:
right on, so if you can get the oil cooler, a 5w20 is like running 5w30. Guys who want to run warranty 5w20 but want the protection of a 5w30, well oil viscosity is only related to temp, change the oil temp you change it's viscosity. Get that oil to operate at 194 instead of the 100c, you gain 2 points viscosity.

Burla said:
You know the scary part about running 5w20, it isn't operating temp viscosity which we all have learned to love, but rather what happens when that oil is 230f? How thin is it then? The cooling system usually keeps t stat temp fairly easily, but the longer the trip the hotter the oil gets on a hot day, and the oil gets much thinner. Have a great worry fun summer everyone, ha.

Wow, so repeating what I've been saying for years and presenting it as your own idea. Very original of you, or is it amnesia? Or maybe Deja Vu?

For anyone interested, just scroll through my earlier posts, especially the ones where I talk about going to a Mishimoto 180F thermostat and deleting the grille shutters. I also talk about running Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 at a lower temperature, Red Line 5W-30, and then going to 5W-20 because now I'm running the oil most of the time at 190F. But hey, since these ideas are coming from you @Burla, I guess now they're revolutionary, aren't they?

Just like you stole the "running Red Line 5W-30 to quite the HEMI down" idea from @Hemi395, and made it your own, called it the "HEMI Tick Cure," and dubbed it a "Lubrication Strategy." Funny enough, @Hemi395 moved on from using Red Line 5W-30, and his truck is still running great.

You know, imitation might be the most sincere form of flattery, but sometimes you should come up with your own ideas for a change.

The Critic · Aug 4, 2022

Burla said:
@The Critic

I agree this is irrelevant minutia, but this is Dave's response to my email asking which formulas don't have vii's. There are some advantages to use an oil w/o vii's that everyone understands, but is the juice worth the squeeze? individual choice...

Doesnt redline have a 15w40? if so I wonder why that didnt make the list. I did only ask for multigrade, of course the sae choices have none as well.

Mike,

Our Motor Oils that don’t contain VI improvers are: 5W20, 10W30, 10W40, 15W50 and 20W50.

Regards,

Dave Granquist

I guess I'll take their word for it, but I am a bit skeptical of the info....especially since they mentioned 15W50 is without VII. That is very unusual.

Rod Knock · Aug 4, 2022

The Critic said:
I guess I'll take their word for it, but I am a bit skeptical of the info....especially since they mentioned 15W50 is without VII. That is very unusual.

I agree with you. Dave @ Red Line can sometimes mix things up a little bit as he deals with tons of emails daily.

Their 5W-20 can't be VII-free either. Look at the 40C, 100C viscosities, and 8% NOACK.

Wild one · Aug 4, 2022

Rod Knock said:
Wow, so repeating what I've been saying for years and presenting it as your own idea. Very original of you, or is it amnesia? Or maybe Deja Vu?

For anyone interested, just scroll through my earlier posts, especially the ones where I talk about going to a Mishimoto 180F thermostat and deleting the grille shutters. I also talk about running Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 at a lower temperature, Red Line 5W-30, and then going to 5W-20 because now I'm running the oil most of the time at 190F. But hey, since these ideas are coming from you @Burla, I guess now they're revolutionary, aren't they?

Just like you stole the "running Red Line 5W-30 to quite the HEMI down" idea from @Hemi395, and made it your own, called it the "HEMI Tick Cure," and dubbed it a "Lubrication Strategy." Funny enough, @Hemi395 moved on from using Red Line 5W-30, and his truck is still running great.

You know, imitation might be the most sincere form of flattery, but sometimes you should come up with your own ideas for a change.

And just where did you get the idea of the cooler thermostat and deleted shutters from.Lots of us were doing that long before you were,just saying.In other words who cares who's idea it was,as long as the info gets out there.Mike has done alot for this board,and was the one who talked me into trying out Redline way back on my 13,long before you were around.

HEMIMANN · Aug 4, 2022

Travis8352 said:
Redlines 15w50 has a viscosity index of 162. As far as individual base oils the highest viscosity index i have seen so far are mobils 150 cst mpao and 300cst mpao.

Mobil 1 esp x3 0w40 viscosity index is 204! Thing is full of VIIs

Ok, something stinks with Red Line's data - how do you get a 15W-50 with NO VII additive, and a VI of only 162?

I don't want to go back to the VI calculation formula. It doesn't make intuitive sense to have such a wide viscosity range, and yet a low calculated viscosity index, and no additive.

Rod Knock · Aug 4, 2022

Wild one said:
And just where did you get the idea of the cooler thermostat and deleted shutters from.

I got the thermostat idea from you and @Hemi395, and the grille shutter delete from a specific YouTube video that I posted before in this thread.

I never claimed that these were my ideas. I did, however, talk at length about the oil-temperature relationship in the HEMI at various temperatures, and the impact viscosity has on the VVT, and the fact that the computer knows when you're not running the expected viscosity, so there is a slight delay in VVT and MDS actuation. It's not so much due to oil viscosity as it is due to programming. The EPA forces manufacturers to enforce the oil type and viscosity that they used to qualify their vehicles for the certified fuel economy numbers.

Be that as it may...

I talked about the above over a year ago, and then @Burla trashed me, talked down to me, cursed me out, and bullied me. I still have the screenshots tagged and dated for good measure. And none of you once told him publically that what he's doing is wrong on so many levels. Way to stand up.

And now I have to see him run with what I said over a year ago like he just came up with it? No way!

Burla · Aug 4, 2022

email dave hmann...

I wonder if they have a term for pour point depressant that is different then the vii they use? I don't know, like I said minutia, but if you want to take it farther, ask dave directly. the uoas I have seen of 5w20 have zero shear, none.

The Critic · Aug 4, 2022

https://www.hplubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/PC-Engine-Oil-PDS.pdf

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/high-performance-lubricants-pcmo-10w-20-voa.356676/

What do you guys think of their 10W-20? It uses a 8cst base oil and no VII, so it’s HTFS is supposedly better than most 5W30’s.

Travis8352 · Aug 4, 2022

HEMIMANN said:
Ok, something stinks with Red Line's data - how do you get a 15W-50 with NO VII additive, and a VI of only 162?

I don't want to go back to the VI calculation formula. It doesn't make intuitive sense to have such a wide viscosity range, and yet a low calculated viscosity index, and no additive.

Chevronphillips chem (cpchem) paos seem to all be higher viscosity index than mobils paos fwiw. Im thinking they may be using small doses of mPAO in some of these oils. However i obviously have no idea for sure as my knowledge on this is limited and all i have to go off of is what i can find on data sheets. I also dont know how mPAOs are used in formulations as the only company i have seen specifically mention them is Driven oils.

Burla · Aug 5, 2022

The Critic said:
View attachment 499574

https://www.hplubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/PC-Engine-Oil-PDS.pdf

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/high-performance-lubricants-pcmo-10w-20-voa.356676/

What do you guys think of their 10W-20? It uses a 8cst base oil and no VII, so it’s HTFS is supposedly better than most 5W30’s.

did they post htfs? is any oil manu using this? We can't even hardly get hths anymore. Where did that number come from? who is doing htfs? we are out of the loop.

The Critic · Aug 5, 2022

Burla said:
did they post htfs? is any oil manu using this? We can't even hardly get hths anymore. Where did that number come from? who is doing htfs? we are out of the loop.

Some guy from the other site came up with the calculations:

Estimated HTFS (base-oil + DDI-package dynamic viscosity @ 150 °C (BO DV150)) and viscosity-index improver (VII) content of selected oils

Sheet1 oil,density15.6,KV40,KV100,VI (info),HTHS,A_Harman index,VII,HTFS (BO DV150),D341 a,D341 b,KV150,DV150,BO KV40,BO KV100,BO VI,PAO,GTL,hydro,error (*) Amsoil Diesel & Marine AME 15W-40,0.8660,106.90,15.00,146,4.20,0.9008,4.96%,3.07,7.854,3.024,5.871,4.663,70.29,9.86,3.1 Amsoil Heavy-Duty A...

docs.google.com

(Some of the PDS data is dated, but it can be updated.)

HammerHead · Aug 5, 2022

I know this has been Years in the making LOL; looking forward to my first run of Redline. This being a Ram forum I know most don't know that the 4Runner has one of the noisiest engines on the market, usually a bump in viscosity will help but still a noisy 4.0. My 4R just rolled over 60k last week so she's getting a proper fluid overhaul, I'll report back with my thoughts and opinions on the 0w30.
Big thank you to Burla and H395 for all your hard work over the years!

HEMIMANN · Aug 5, 2022

The Critic said:
Some guy from the other site came up with the calculations:

Estimated HTFS (base-oil + DDI-package dynamic viscosity @ 150 °C (BO DV150)) and viscosity-index improver (VII) content of selected oils

Sheet1 oil,density15.6,KV40,KV100,VI (info),HTHS,A_Harman index,VII,HTFS (BO DV150),D341 a,D341 b,KV150,DV150,BO KV40,BO KV100,BO VI,PAO,GTL,hydro,error (*) Amsoil Diesel & Marine AME 15W-40,0.8660,106.90,15.00,146,4.20,0.9008,4.96%,3.07,7.854,3.024,5.871,4.663,70.29,9.86,3.1 Amsoil Heavy-Duty A...

docs.google.com

(Some of the PDS data is dated, but it can be updated.)

Yeah, that's Gohkan, but it's just an extrapolation from manufacturers published data, so it never did much for me. And the HTHS data is old from when more manufacturers published it. With all the API changes since, it's questionable today, at best.

The Critic · Aug 5, 2022

HEMIMANN said:
Yeah, that's Gohkan, but it's just an extrapolation from manufacturers published data, so it never did much for me. And the HTHS data is old from when more manufacturers published it. With all the API changes since, it's questionable today, at best.

Fair enough. But in an academic context, having a higher viscosity base oil with no VII (VM) can be beneficial from a film strength and shear stability standpoint.

Obviously this is probably not a good product to use if it gets below freezing in your area, but it seems like a great idea on paper for the non-hybrid applications that call for a 20wt.

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