A can of worms.. Payload.. Why?

I one question. And then I will give one final answer.

What year(Span of years) are you interested in?

The answer is easy if 2014 and newer.

The answer is super simple if 2019 and newer.

Before 2013 it can be very complicated, but the numbers are much further apart, and easier to go, oh yeah I get it.

All of them involve not reading on the internet.

But you have already answered your own question and have already had it answered by others.

Then you asked sub questions that you got answers too that somehow made you decide to change all the questions.

But I am glad you narrowed it down. And once you answer mine...I may come back and explain in the simplest and purest of terms.

392DevilDog said:

I one question. And then I will give one final answer.

What year(Span of years) are you interested in?

The answer is easy if 2014 and newer.

The answer is super simple if 2019 and newer.

Before 2013 it can be very complicated, but the numbers are much further apart, and easier to go, oh yeah I get it.

All of them involve not reading on the internet.

But you have already answered your own question and have already had it answered by others.

Then you asked sub questions that you got answers too that somehow made you decide to change all the questions.

But I am glad you narrowed it down. And once you answer mine...I may come back and explain in the simplest and purest of terms.

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Some of my writing is repeating due to some people not reading the whole thread and asking already discussed questions.

What sub questions are you referring to? And where did I change my questions?

You "may" come back, with a final answer.. If I'm taking that the wrong way and you're not being sarcastic, I'm sorry. But if you're offended about this topic, and need to assert your opinions in a sarcastic manner, please don't. I don't know you, you have no qualifications to me. I did not start this thread to ruffle any feathers, hence why I titled it "can of worms", I knew it was a debated topic and and had a strongly opinionated following. Everywhere I have read had opinions not based with sources. I originally requested what the physical difference between the two trucks is, if there were any physical differences between them that justify the extra 1000+ lb payload in a 3500 based off what I originally described. Don't claim I changed my questioning when I have not. I was hoping this forum was mature enough to have a discussion without people getting so moody. This is a forum, a place to ask questions, regardless of they are repeated. Get used to it, people will always be asking the same questions even after using search features. If you can't accept this, you shouldn't respond to posts.

If you have sources I'm more then willing to learn. If these are your opinions, please do not respond with more sarcasm. As for years, I'm referring to the newest model years.

Like I said previously in a post on this thread, the frames are NOT the same. The coil sprung truck is carrying its rear axle capacity load at one location, the upper coil mount. The leaf sprung frame is splitting the axle weight capacity load between 2 points, leading spring eye and rear shackle.
That along with other chassis design differences are enough to justify the larger capacity.

18CrewDually said:

Like I said previously in a post on this thread, the frames are NOT the same. The coil sprung truck is carrying its rear axle capacity load at one location, the upper coil mount. The leaf sprung frame is splitting the axle weight capacity load between 2 points, leading spring eye and rear shackle.
That along with other chassis design differences are enough to justify the larger capacity.

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Sure, where they mount on the frame, but there is still ONLY ONE mounting point on the axle, same a coils. One extra mounting point on each side of the frame will not provide that extra support. Shackles break. Coils have the frame cross member above them.

The mounting points have nothing to do with the weight the truck can hold. It's the spring tension of the leafs that will keep the truck level under more weight then the coils. Ram added the coils for rider comfort.

What OTHER design difference are there? Don't just tell me there are differences without telling me them please. Sources preferred.

You answered your own question, again.
If you can't accept that the coil sprung frame and suspension is not engineer rated to hold the same weight as the leaf sprung design then you will never find the answer you're looking for.
Good luck in your pursuit.

Going back to the very

18CrewDually said:

You answered your own question, again.
If you can't accept that the coil sprung frame and suspension is not engineer rated to hold the same weight as the leaf sprung design then you will never find the answer you're looking for.
Good luck in your pursuit.

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Going back to the very beginning, I asked WHY the 3500 is rated to hold more weight... I asked what the differences are in the truck BESIDES THE SPRINGS that enable it to hold more weight. I provided examples in best case scenarios between the 35 and 25, showing same model, engine, trans, 4x4 and rear, adding screenshots.

I ALSO said, Ram changed to coils to provide a smoother ride. (see the post DIRECTLY above yours).

I wanted to know if there are any differences besides the springs, so if I were to add supplemental support I.E. airbags, would the truck be just as capable as a leaf spring truck due to the extra load support.

I asked for sources, I was provided ONE source in this entire thread, which showed an extra cross member on the 35. However I found this diagram to be inaccurate because it clearly did not show the extra bars on my 25. (Scroll back, pictures attached).

From every forum and thread I've read through, this has been an unsolved question besides people referring to the door sticker. It has been proven the door sticker is arbitrary UP TO A POINT. I say this because you can register your truck with a higher GVWR in different states. I also stated that if the truck can safely have GAWR of 6000+rear and front is 5500+, the truck is clearly rated to hold more then 10000. Some say well if you have that much in the rear you have to take the weight off the front. I asked why, if each axle is rated to hold that much it can. I was replied with "the sticker said no more then 10000". Well here we are looping around again. "The brakes can't handle it".. so the brakes can't handle just a truck weighing 1000 lbs over GVWR, but are totally fine with a truck that weighs GVWR but is towing 15000 extras lbs? Ok.

I have no idea why most of you seem to be offended because I am asking for sources and not your "factual opinion". I am trying to get a mature group that can handle differences without getting their under wear in a bunch just because they can't back their opinions.

I never stated I was right, I just asked why... However you all behave like I'm arguing with you when I'm not..

Here is an example of a SOURCE which fueled my questioning. Here are screenshots with a highlighted section from said source. I'm hoping someone is able to find something that can prove different then this. It's not about being right or wrong, is about finding an answer.. if I'm on the wrong forum for that, I'll leave.

Load it up and send it. Manufactures have no idea what they are doing and the numbers they produce was just random guesses.

I’m planning on buying a ridgeline to move a D9 dozer. When it fails it will be the manufacture problem because they make junk. Not my problem because I can not think and apply common sense.

06 Dodge said:

IIRC the frames and rear suspension were the same up to the time they went to using coil springs in the 2500 IIRC 2019.

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They went to coils in 14 on the 2500s.

Rafke77 said:

I also stated that if the truck can safely have GAWR of 6000+rear and front is 5500+, the truck is clearly rated to hold more then 10000.

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@dhay13 already answered this for you and if you can't comprehend the concept then obviously you have never loaded up a pickup truck or you are just like a lot of original posters in the towing sections where they ask questions even though they already have a predetermined answer in their head and won't listen to anybody unless they agree with said predetermined answer.

I know I'm just a dumb construction worker but if I really wanted to know the answer to something like you do with the frame differences I would contact the engineer who designs the frames. There are alot of smart people here but it's pretty obvious nobody here is going to have the proof you require for any points they make.

Springs & the spring mounting locations that distribute the load. This is the best logical answer and to me is obvious. If you want to utilize your time, look up spring rates but you have to remember the leaf spring is "splitting" the load between 2 points on the frame where the coil spring is concentrated in 1 area so the load is not spanned across the frame rail the same on both designs.
This video below proves the trucks are NOT the same by any means. You'll see adding a given payload there is a huge difference in the effect.
Another point, talk to guys in the camper forums that made the mistake of going to a 2500 coil sprung truck. With a slip in camper in the bed the truck is a sloshy handfull on the road due to the softer coil spring and the inboard mounting. The 3500 leaf spring truck handles the same load without issues.
So your answer is springs and mounting design . And at the end of the day the sticker or manufacturer's rating is really what matters unfortunately, not what you can add to or modify a coil sprung truck to get it closer to what a 3500 can do because you could do the same to a 3500 and make it that much more capable. It all just becomes a game of finding the weakest link at that point until something fails.

2020PW said:

Load it up and send it. Manufactures have no idea what they are doing and the numbers they produce was just random guesses.

I’m planning on buying a ridgeline to move a D9 dozer. When it fails it will be the manufacture problem because they make junk. Not my problem because I can not think and apply common sense.

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Sarcasm, thank you
Did you read anything I wrote? You realize I'm not arguing with any of you? I'm not claiming to be correct about anything. But hey if this gets you through life, you do you and good luck with it.

White six four said:

They went to coils in 14 on the 2500s.

@dhay13 already answered this for you and if you can't comprehend the concept then obviously you have never loaded up a pickup truck or you are just like a lot of original posters in the towing sections where they ask questions even though they already have a predetermined answer in their head and won't listen to anybody unless they agree with said predetermined answer.

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No it was not answered because it never was really a question. I was originally making an observation based on the door sticker weight ratings. They stated it could hold that amount as long as the total did not go over the 10000. My comment is, if the front axle and rear axle are separately rated to hold that weight, they each can hold that weight. That led me into trying to understand why there was a 10000 GVWR when the truck could hold more weight.

White six four said:

I know I'm just a dumb construction worker but if I really wanted to know the answer to something like you do with the frame differences I would contact the engineer who designs the frames. There are alot of smart people here but it's pretty obvious nobody here is going to have the proof you require for any points they make.

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Why would you refer to yourself as a "dumb construction worker"?

Like I've said many times, no one has provided actual proof, hence me constantly asking for sources. I do not want to rely on everyone's "professional opinion" especially if they are referring to themselves as "dumb".

It sounds like for the "proof" you're looking for you need to contact RAM and try to obtain their months of testing results and engineered figures. Good luck since its probably proprietary.
Based on your responses no one here will ever tell you what you want to hear.

18CrewDually said:

Springs & the spring mounting locations that distribute the load. This is the best logical answer and to me is obvious. If you want to utilize your time, look up spring rates but you have to remember the leaf spring is "splitting" the load between 2 points on the frame where the coil spring is concentrated in 1 area so the load is not spanned across the frame rail the same on both designs.

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First, thank you very much for the video, I found that very Interesting and was surprised how much the coils squatted with that amount. I assumed they would given the compression rate is lower, but that was a lot.

The load is split between the two points, which is only one extra point on each side then the coils. I don't think it's that which provides the added payload, I believe it's because leafs themselves will support the weight better, just like shown in the video. I like that the coils are actually under the frame and not tied into the side of the frame with a rod, seems like a weak point. I wonder why they did not have the shackle mounted under the frame. I added a pic of 2022 3500 so you can see the leafs are mounted on the outside of the frame, no under it.

18CrewDually said:

This video below proves the trucks are NOT the same by any means. You'll see adding a given payload there is a huge difference in the effect.

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The video doesn't show anything besides how much the trucks sag because of one truck having coils vs leaves. Which we already know, because coils have a lower compression then leaves. This is why I wondered if the 2500 in the video, had air bags, would it be able to safely hold the weight like the 3500 did after the bags inflated.

18CrewDually said:

Another point, talk to guys in the camper forums that made the mistake of going to a 2500 coil sprung truck. With a slip in camper in the bed the truck is a sloshy handfull on the road due to the softer coil spring and the inboard mounting. The 3500 leaf spring truck handles the same load without issues.

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Ironically my neighbor is an old school farmer. He has a 2017 1500 (I'm not agreeing with his decisions or claiming they are safe). The other day I watched him load a massive gooseneck into his truck and loaded it with 6 of those large round bails of hay. I was told they weight several hundred pounds each. His truck was perfectly level. I decided to go talk to him about it, I know there is no way that truck should handle it. He also had one of those slide in bed campers he used for years. He had air bags installed years ago he showed me, I took a picture of the rear underside, along with his door stickers. You can see his load capacity is just over 1100lbs! The truck has a GVWR of 6900lbs, with a rear GAWR of only 3900lbs. I know that trailer and hay and his camper add up WELL over those numbers. He has been doing this for years. I'm not saying it's safe by any means. The airbags sure help level that thing and probably do make it a little safer balancing that load on that poor 1500.

18CrewDually said:

So your answer is springs and mounting design . And at the end of the day the sticker or manufacturer's rating is really what matters unfortunately, not what you can add to or modify a coil sprung truck to get it closer to what a 3500 can do because you could do the same to a 3500 and make it that much more capable. It all just becomes a game of finding the weakest link at that point until something fails.

HD Truck Comparison: Coil Spring vs. Leaf Spring + Air Assist

#5thGenRam #Cummins #TruckReviewTesting out each suspension of the Ram HD trucks with a pallet of wheel/tires estimated to be roughly 1500# give or take... T...

youtu.be

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Thank you for your response and being able to discuss it without sarcasm. I wish I could find a engineer at Ram that could speak off the records and openly about this.

I mentioned it in one of the other posts but the coils being mounted inward in comparison to the leaf springs make it less stable side to side hence why the slip in camper guys regret getting a 2500 if they do any kind of long distance traveling.
For your farmer friend, his trailer is handling majority of the hay bale weight.

Dumb as in I have no clue how they go about engineering the frame to meet certain specs while having a safety factor built in but still making it as cost effective as possible.

Best bet is to contact Ram like was said. I'm sure it won't be easy if even possible but who knows. I doubt anyone or very many people have tried and that's why you can't find your proof.

I wish you the best of luck finding your answer

18CrewDually said:

View attachment 509706

It sounds like for the "proof" you're looking for you need to contact RAM and try to obtain their months of testing results and engineered figures. Good luck since its probably proprietary.
Based on your responses no one here will ever tell you what you want to hear.

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Lol love the gif, thanks for adding humor.

I'm not looking for someone to agree with me or just tell me what I want to hear. I thought I made that clear many times. I'm just looking for sources to back up everyone's opinion. You have an opinion clearly, I'm not looking for door figures. Again, why could I register a truck in other states heavier then what the sticker says? Do you have any sources you could share? I'm coming to the table with an age old debate that has a strong following either way and no real answers, besides with "the stickers say so". I agree with warnings, but what are the real differences. There are plenty of people who decide to drive without seatbelts which is also against what the sticker says.

Trust me, I have no plans going over any legal limits and would upgrade if I had to.
My biggest fear would be if I went over the 10000 GVWR because of believing my OPINION that these trucks are the same, and the only difference is coils vs leaves, and if I add airbags I would be perfectly fine. I go down the highway with my family and 5er loaded up and my payload is 500lbs over, but with my opinion that the truck is plenty capable to handle it. I get involved in a crash, people go to the hospital, trucks totaled, camper is fubard. Now, the other driver gets a good attorney and an investigation is done, they find I was over my trucks GVWR. They sue me, now my insurance company won't cover me because I loaded up over the weight limit. Now I'm personally liable, out a truck, a camper, hospital bills out of pocket and "pain and suffering" for the other people.

You think I want that?? Absolutely not. I'm just curious, which apparently is a sin around here if asking for any proof anyone has that shows the 2500 could not hold the same as the 3500 if equipped correctly. People have a hard time saying, "I have no proof, I just feel safe with what the sticker says". Ok good, that's good you want to do that, I wouldn't think less of anyone. I'm just wondering if anyone has done any research or looked into it. But this forum takes it as an argument, when it's not.

Here is an interesting video, most of the video can be skipped, but at 22 minutes they discuss the weight.

18CrewDually said:

I mentioned it in one of the other posts but the coils being mounted inward in comparison to the leaf springs make it less stable side to side hence why the slip in camper guys regret getting a 2500 if they do any kind of long distance traveling.
For your farmer friend, his trailer is handling majority of the hay bale weight.

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I'm sure the trailer is, but I'm also very certain it's way over payload.

I noticed that on his 1500 the springs were mounted far out, you can see in the picture. Literally where the bump stop is on a 2500. Which is why I posted the picture several posts back about the air bags replacing the bump stops on a 2500 creating better side to side balance with heavy loads.

White six four said:

Dumb as in I have no clue how they go about engineering the frame to meet certain specs while having a safety factor built in but still making it as cost effective as possible.

Best bet is to contact Ram like was said. I'm sure it won't be easy if even possible but who knows. I doubt anyone or very many people have tried and that's why you can't find your proof.

I wish you the best of luck finding your answer

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Thank you very much. I agree it will be very tough. If I'm able to get an answer from Ram I will be certain to post it here. Thanks again!!

Rafke77 said:

The load is split between the two points, which is only one extra point on each side then the coils.

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You act like one less point is nothing. There are only 2 points of attachment. The weight on the frame where the leaves attach is half of that of a coil.

Wire4money said:

You act like one less point is nothing. There are only 2 points of attachment. The weight on the frame where the leaves attach is half of that of a coil.

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There is still one mounting point on the axle, it is still a weak point, the weight transfer goes from two to one. Just because there are two points on top doesn't mean it will hold more with all only one contact point on the bottom. You know the saying a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link? You could have a hundred mounting points on top, but with only one on the bottom it won't matter. The frame is not going to break before a coil, or leaf spring, or the leaf spring shackle. But before any of those happen you'll probably blow out a tire.

Anyways, I defer back to saying a leaf spring will hold more weight then a coil because of it's compression, not amount of mounting points.