Thinking of upgrading to a 2500 should I get Gas or Diesel?"

ramffml · Apr 25, 2023

nlambert182 said:
I mentioned this in another thread (I did the math in a spreadsheet over the long haul before ever buying one), but the cost of maintenance on the Cummins isn't really much different over the long haul than the gas burner equivalent. I don't let that factor into my decision as to whether or not I go diesel over gas. After owning 2, I can say for certain in my case that my math worked out.

Oil changes cost more but are half as frequent. My 16 3500 cost me $94.50 changed at 15k miles. My 18 Hemi cost me $58.40 changed at 5k miles. So it cost me an additional $80.70 to go 15k miles.

Fuel filters are about $100 every other oil change. But diesels have no coil packs or spark plugs.

Trans fluid changes are roughly the same cost. The 68RFE intervals are 60k severe duty or 120k miles normal duty. The 8 speeds are 60k miles.

The Cummins doesn't suffer from potential lifter/cam issues nor header bolt issues.

The only real cost adder is the DEF system, but you have to pay to play on that one. Delete it or fix it and roll on. I think you'd be hard pressed to find nearly as many Hemis on the road at 400k+ miles as a Cummins (still on stock everything in the engine) so if longevity is a real concern it makes a lot of sense to go with the Cummins.

Good points, but when something brakes on a diesel (and it's only a matter of time), you can swap in a used hemi for that cost and carry on for another 150k miles. Injectors are huge money, DEF problems are very frequent too.

No doubt the cummins itself will last longer. But the rest of the truck could rot around it so are you any better off?

If I bought diesel it would be either because I need it (towing heavy often), or because I want it (diesels tow very nice). But I'd never make a decision based on the money because it's very hard to predict which engine is on top for which person based on their driving needs and desired time of ownership etc.

nlambert182 · Apr 25, 2023

ramffml said:
Good points, but when something brakes on a diesel (and it's only a matter of time), you can swap in a used hemi for that cost and carry on for another 150k miles. Injectors are huge money, DEF problems are very frequent too.

No doubt the cummins itself will last longer. But the rest of the truck could rot around it so are you any better off?

If I bought diesel it would be either because I need it (towing heavy often), or because I want it (diesels tow very nice). But I'd never make a decision based on the money because it's very hard to predict which engine is on top for which person based on their driving needs and desired time of ownership etc.

Realistically, if maintained properly you shouldn't anticipate injectors or any other major failure within a few hundred thousand miles. Injector failures are not common on a Cummins. Really... there are no other common failures aside from emissions equipment.

DEF failures? At some point, absolutely. Usually around the 100-150k mile mark depending on how the truck is used.

But to your point, you're correct. If you don't tow, you really don't need a diesel. That's why I sold my last one.... as much as I despised the idea. It was no longer practical. If you do tow anything larger than a bumper pull, a diesel will pay for itself in spades. Not to mention resale value is much better on a diesel truck.

Riccochet · Apr 25, 2023

nlambert182 said:
Not to mention resale value is much better on a diesel truck.

Not exactly true any longer. At least in the world of heavy duty trucks (3/4 and 1 ton). Both gas and diesel trucks are holding their value equally in terms of annual % of depreciation. You'll just pay about $10k more for a used diesel over a used gas truck, all other factors being equal (trim/options/etc). That's because the diesel was $10k more to begin with.

I keep looking at used Laramie Longhorn diesels, with similar mileage to mine, and they're all about $8-10k more than I could get selling my 6.4.

Choupique · Apr 25, 2023

A diesel is a nearly $12k premium in some configurations. You'll be lucky to recoup that adder on resale at any mileage.

It's financially impossible to justify a diesel unless your towing needs require it. Most of us drive one because we want one and do mental gymnastics for financial justification to our wives.

jejb · Apr 26, 2023

ramffml said:
Good points, but when something brakes on a diesel (and it's only a matter of time), you can swap in a used hemi for that cost and carry on for another 150k miles. Injectors are huge money,

I don't think it's fair to assume every Cummins is going to have expensive issues, just as it's not fair to assume every Hemi will be junk at 100K. Also, I'd never put a used motor in a truck to fix it. Just asking for trouble, IMO. So your comparison would have to be a new hemi to diesel repair costs, in your scenario.

ramffml said:
DEF problems are very frequent too.

No doubt the cummins itself will last longer. But the rest of the truck could rot around it so are you any better off?

You must live in the rust belt. No rusty trucks around here, and DEF issues only seem to be an issue up north. I got a card from Ram the other day about some software fix for the DEF issue. Not sure if I'll have it done.

Riccochet · Apr 26, 2023

It's not that one engine is going to break more frequent than the other. There are literally hundreds of thousands of 5.7 and 6.4 hemi's in use as patrol vehicles with hundreds of thousands of miles on them. Same goes for 6.7 ******'s being used commercially.

You're just gambling that you got a good one either way. OOW repairs on a cummins are considerably higher than a hemi.

ramffml · Apr 26, 2023

jejb said:
I don't think it's fair to assume every Cummins is going to have expensive issues, just as it's not fair to assume every Hemi will be junk at 100K. Also, I'd never put a used motor in a truck to fix it. Just asking for trouble, IMO. So your comparison would have to be a new hemi to diesel repair costs, in your scenario.

That's your preference, but most people would buy used and not even blink. Also a new hemi is like $7000 directly from mopar, which is still cheaper than doing injectors.

jejb said:
You must live in the rust belt. No rusty trucks around here, and DEF issues only seem to be an issue up north. I got a card from Ram the other day about some software fix for the DEF issue. Not sure if I'll have it done.

I live in Canada, but many in the USA have rusty trucks as well. DEF issues are not related to "up north" in any way.

Slightly bigger truck, my brother drives a peter built (small box truck) and recently his company had to spend $32,000+ (CAD) within a few months; turbo, DEF issues, something else I'm forgetting.

Another guy on this forum was also quoted $30,000 to fix his cummins. I don't remember the thread but I can try and find it back. I can buy 3 new hemis for that price.

A diesel mechanic on YT (Alex from The Getty Adventures) drives a power wagon but absolutely loves Cummins. He fixes a ton of them and other diesels, mainly in busses and trucks like that but it's the same 6.7 cummins in Ram vs a bus. If you watch his videos he'll tell you the truth about diesels, you need very deep pockets.

I think the point is: there are only 2 real problems with the hemi, broken manifolds and lifter tick. Manifolds are cheap to fix (permanently) and lifters happen to < 3% IMHO. Beyond that it will run pretty much guaranteed without repairs for $250,000+ with standard maintenance. It's definitely the cheaper option. No turbos, no DEF, no injectors, no gelling diesel in the tank (for those who experience winter) etc etc.

Riccochet · Apr 26, 2023

ramffml said:
That's your preference, but most people would buy used and not even blink. Also a new hemi is like $7000 directly from mopar, which is still cheaper than doing injectors.

I live in Canada, but many in the USA have rusty trucks as well. DEF issues are not related to "up north" in any way.

Slightly bigger truck, my brother drives a peter built (small box truck) and recently his company had to spend $32,000+ (CAD) within a few months; turbo, DEF issues, something else I'm forgetting.

Another guy on this forum was also quoted $30,000 to fix his cummins. I don't remember the thread but I can try and find it back. I can buy 3 new hemis for that price.

A diesel mechanic on YT (Alex from The Getty Adventures) drives a power wagon but absolutely loves Cummins. He fixes a ton of them and other diesels, mainly in busses and trucks like that but it's the same 6.7 cummins in Ram vs a bus. If you watch his videos he'll tell you the truth about diesels, you need very deep pockets.

I think the point is: there are only 2 real problems with the hemi, broken manifolds and lifter tick. Manifolds are cheap to fix (permanently) and lifters happen to < 3% IMHO. Beyond that it will run pretty much guaranteed without repairs for $250,000+ with standard maintenance. It's definitely the cheaper option. No turbos, no DEF, no injectors, no gelling diesel in the tank (for those who experience winter) etc etc.

Another guy on YT PD Diesel Power that runs a hot shot business. Every one of his 2-22 built cummins has EGR issues, and another had to have the engine rebuilt at 108k miles. All of his vehicles are pretty well maintained.

ramffml · Apr 26, 2023

Riccochet said:
Another guy on YT PD Diesel Power that runs a hot shot business. Every one of his 2-22 built cummins has EGR issues, and another had to have the engine rebuilt at 108k miles. All of his vehicles are pretty well maintained.

Yep I think I saw a few of his videos, he's pretty miffed with Cummins at this point.

HEMIMANN · Apr 26, 2023

ramffml said:
That's your preference, but most people would buy used and not even blink. Also a new hemi is like $7000 directly from mopar, which is still cheaper than doing injectors.

I live in Canada, but many in the USA have rusty trucks as well. DEF issues are not related to "up north" in any way.

Slightly bigger truck, my brother drives a peter built (small box truck) and recently his company had to spend $32,000+ (CAD) within a few months; turbo, DEF issues, something else I'm forgetting.

Another guy on this forum was also quoted $30,000 to fix his cummins. I don't remember the thread but I can try and find it back. I can buy 3 new hemis for that price.

A diesel mechanic on YT (Alex from The Getty Adventures) drives a power wagon but absolutely loves Cummins. He fixes a ton of them and other diesels, mainly in busses and trucks like that but it's the same 6.7 cummins in Ram vs a bus. If you watch his videos he'll tell you the truth about diesels, you need very deep pockets.

I think the point is: there are only 2 real problems with the hemi, broken manifolds and lifter tick. Manifolds are cheap to fix (permanently) and lifters happen to < 3% IMHO. Beyond that it will run pretty much guaranteed without repairs for $250,000+ with standard maintenance. It's definitely the cheaper option. No turbos, no DEF, no injectors, no gelling diesel in the tank (for those who experience winter) etc etc.

Sheeeeit - here in central Minnesota, they throw enough salt on the roads during the long winter to refill the underground salt mines in Louisiana. In fact, they're looking for alternatives because it's gone on long enough where the salinity is rising in the watersheds! Minnesota is a huge pickup truck state, btw, because 55% of the populace lives in the metropolitan cities, most can't stand it and drive trucks to their lake cabins. The rest of the state is farms and forests, they all got pickup trucks. Yeah, we only 5.5 million souls, but point is pickups are a huge deal here.

I'm with you - I'm pissed at the poor cam lubing, but don't want any other engine I see, so I live with it and use you guys to mitigate the risks.

ppine · Apr 26, 2023

Not a wash. Diesels save money.

dhay13 · Apr 26, 2023

Salt is pretty bad here in western PA too. 5-6 years cars start seeing rust bubbles, at least in my experience with our Jeep Commander, Dodge Durango, 2007 Ram, and 2013 Ram. So far my 2018 Ram and 2017 Subaru are still holding up

nlambert182 · Apr 26, 2023

ramffml said:
That's your preference, but most people would buy used and not even blink. Also a new hemi is like $7000 directly from mopar, which is still cheaper than doing injectors.

I live in Canada, but many in the USA have rusty trucks as well. DEF issues are not related to "up north" in any way.

Slightly bigger truck, my brother drives a peter built (small box truck) and recently his company had to spend $32,000+ (CAD) within a few months; turbo, DEF issues, something else I'm forgetting.

Another guy on this forum was also quoted $30,000 to fix his cummins. I don't remember the thread but I can try and find it back. I can buy 3 new hemis for that price.

A diesel mechanic on YT (Alex from The Getty Adventures) drives a power wagon but absolutely loves Cummins. He fixes a ton of them and other diesels, mainly in busses and trucks like that but it's the same 6.7 cummins in Ram vs a bus. If you watch his videos he'll tell you the truth about diesels, you need very deep pockets.

I think the point is: there are only 2 real problems with the hemi, broken manifolds and lifter tick. Manifolds are cheap to fix (permanently) and lifters happen to < 3% IMHO. Beyond that it will run pretty much guaranteed without repairs for $250,000+ with standard maintenance. It's definitely the cheaper option. No turbos, no DEF, no injectors, no gelling diesel in the tank (for those who experience winter) etc etc.

If memory serves, the dealer was trying to replace the entire fuel system on that truck. I've heard of that one time in that thread. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen but a repair like that is about a .001% chance given the number of Cummins engines on the road. I would call that an outlier and not the norm and wouldn't personally consider it in my decision making. There's always an outlier somewhere.

I worked for a dealership that did all of Cummins warranty work for a long time. I'm well versed in them, and can tell you that you don't need very deep pockets to own a diesel unless you own one that was not maintained properly and is nearing the 250k mile mark. But.... this does get said a lot and it steers a lot of folks away from a diesel. I don't think it's always warranted.

But again... location could definitely play a factor in the decision making. Where we live there's zero rust and no diesel gelling to be concerned with. Keep up on the maintenance and the likelihood of running into an issue with a turbo, injectors, etc.. are about as high as a chance of cam/lifter failure on the Hemi. But... if someone drives these like a Honda Civic (short/empty trips) then you will likely deal with DEF issues sooner than later.

People have to pick their poison. If you're going to tow a lot and tow heavy that engine will be happy as a lark for many trouble-free miles/years to come.

HEMIMANN · Apr 26, 2023

Really, the debate was fundamentally changed by EPA emissions regulations of diesels.

Perhaps it was long overdue, but owing to their inherent efficiency, diesels were far more expensive to cut emissions, principally NOx. First came higher injection pressure, to cut PM. This required inline injection pumps, more expensive than single cam rotary pumps.

Then came low sulfur fuel for the same reason, resulting in more expensive fuel that also had less energy and lubrication as a byproduct.

As EPA kept ratcheting down NOx & PM to near zero, diesel engines became unreliable, expensive science fairs - multiple injection piezo injectors and supporting super ECM, variable vane turbocharger, EGR, and last but not least, exhaust aftertreatment despite all that other stuff.

Diesel exhaust aftertreatment is far more expensive than spark-ignited, and far less durable. It consists of a DOC, DPF, and an active NOx catalyst with consumable DEF. Cars have a passive 3 way oxidation catalyst. That's it.

Don't tell me diesel is a good deal for consumer use. I was at Cummins when all of these were developed. We had to apply and control all that crap in generator sets.

jejb · Apr 26, 2023

ramffml said:
DEF issues are not related to "up north" in any way.

I read the forums too. Folks up north have a lot more issues with DEF since it can freeze and cause problems.

HEMIMANN · Apr 26, 2023

jejb said:
I read the forums too. Folks up north have a lot more issues with DEF since it can freeze and cause problems.

As can biodiesel, which is mandated by many states due to agribusiness lobbyists. High gel temp and short storage life make all but daily use, high load applications untenable for diesel engines anymore. Here in Minnesota, biodiesel is mandatory. Their is no pure No. 2 diesel to be found. Anywhere.

farout75 · Apr 26, 2023

VernB said:
Help Please, I bought a 2022 1500 BH with the 3.6 eTorque and am hauling a fiberglass boat and trailer (approx weight 3000lbs). I fear I should have bought a HD truck and am considering doing so. I'll be taking 1 or 2, 1000 mile trips per year hauling the boat/trailer. The remainder of the time I'll be using the truck as my primary vehicle and usually do 10,000 to 12,000 miles per year running here and there. If I do buy the 2500 what kind of fuel mileage can I realistically expect with the 6.4 Hemi or the 6.7 diesel? Any input or lessons learned will be greatly appreciated.

The 3.6 is a light duty truck, I had two and never again, 269 pounds of torque is very poor. You would have been more pleased with just the 5.7 no E-torque.

jejb · Apr 26, 2023

HEMIMANN said:
As can biodiesel, which is mandated by many states due to agribusiness lobbyists. High gel temp and short storage life make all but daily use, high load applications untenable for diesel engines anymore. Here in Minnesota, biodiesel is mandatory. Their is no pure No. 2 diesel to be found. Anywhere.

So glad I don't live there anymore, for so many reasons. I am headed up that way soon though. I'll have to watch for biodiesel.

JNelson · Apr 26, 2023

I pay $220 for an oil change at the dealer for my 2022 2500 Cummins.

I replace my own fuel filters. It’s too easy not to. I got one of each 2500 for work and 3500 for the future fith wheel

06 Dodge · Apr 26, 2023

JNelson said:
I pay $220 for an oil change at the dealer for my 2022 2500 Cummins.

I replace my own fuel filters. It’s too easy not to. I got one of each 2500 for work and 3500 for the future fith wheel View attachment 520054

$220 wowzers here in high price Portland Oregon area local dealer offers Rotella T-6 15w40 or 5w40 oil changes for $179.00 including tire rotation...

Thinking of upgrading to a 2500 should I get Gas or Diesel?"

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