2013 1500 V6 tick...but only when warm

[borgille]

I've recently had to do some work on my truck after it overheated in January from a massive coolant leak from the oil cooler. Prior to that it had been leaking oil on the catalytic converter, which I thought was caused from the oil cooler leak, but turns out the valve cover on the right (passenger) side of the engine was leaking. I've got 90K miles on it, so I figured with the things I was seeing online about rockers and lifters failing around 100K, that it would probably make sense to replace them since I was going to all the trouble to install a new gasket. After I got it back together with the new stuff in, next day I fired it up...sounded pretty good. Took it for a 4 mile drive and when I got back, I noticed it was ticking. Worried that I got a gimp rocker in the set, I tore it apart again that afternoon and none of the rockers seems to have any play in them except for sideways movement on the valve stem. Put it back together again, and this morning, I took it for another short drive with the same result. No noticeable ticking while the engine was cool, but quite noticeable after it got warmed up. I probed around with a stethoscope -- not sure where I really need to probe -- but I checked the front and back of the valve cover, the front and back of the aluminum on the cylinder head. When the engine was cooler, there was more ticking coming from the injectors when I put the probe on the fuel rail. Truthfully, I wasn't convinced the ticking was coming from the valve area. It seemed when listening without the stethoscope than with it touching the valve cover. Attaching a couple of recordings...one near the valve cover and one from under truck where the driver seat is. Any thoughts appreciated. I'm thinking maybe I just got a set of poor quality rockers and lifters. I'll grab a recording in the morning when it's cool for comparison. BTW, not getting any codes other than P0128 for the crappy tstat that I've got to replace.

 

[SitKneelBend]

I don't see any attachments but to maybe make you feel a little better. I believe a light ticking sound is just how these engines sound. You may be more sensitive to it now because of the problems you've had and the time you've invested in the fix. I'd be interested to here the recordings though to compare with my experience. For me, the ticking can be heard sometimes with a warm engine from outside the cab with the hood raised or while in a tight space (like the engine sound bouncing of a drive-thru wall)...

 

[borgille]

Regarding the ticking, it's not really light sounding once the truck is warm. It was actually less noisy with the aging stock rockers and lifters before I changed them out. I'm thinking of just putting the old ones back in since I really do think something isn't quite right with the new ones since I don't feel comfortable letting them go on like that too long. I'm also considering buying a different set that might be better -- at least by reputation. I've seen that Autozone carries Melling rockers and lifters. Both get very good reviews there and Amazon (where they are about 40% more expensive). RockAuto has the best price per part, but charges the additional shipping cost and delay (for using ground).

The good news is that with the practice I've been getting, it's taking me a fraction of the time to get what I need done than the first time I did it. I literally spent the better part of a day the first time I did it watching videos, looking up stuff online, trying to figure out how to get the PCV valve off, and working up the nerve to break loose some stubborn connections (e.g. the phaser oil control valves on the front of the camshafts and the bearing caps on the camshafts, which seemed to be torqued much higher than spec). Last time I tore into it to double check my work, it took me about 40 minutes to finally get the valve cover off -- way better, and my wife had less to complain about!

As for the files, I'm not seeing them either. I tried uploading them twice, but they never seems to get attached. Wonder if the forum just doesn't allow it or maybe they have to be moderated before they can be seen? I'll see if I can save them somewhere else and share them via links.

 

[borgille]

Here are the recordings:

* engine just started and warming up
* engine just started and warming up - under truck beneath driver
* engine at operating temperature (after 30+ minute drive)
* engine at operating temperature - under truck beneath driver
* engine warming; revving: idle, 2k rpm, 3k rpm

Hopefully you're able to hear them.

 

[SitKneelBend]

Here are the recordings:

* engine just started and warming up
* engine just started and warming up - under truck beneath driver
* engine at operating temperature (after 30+ minute drive)
* engine at operating temperature - under truck beneath driver
* engine warming; revving: idle, 2k rpm, 3k rpm

Hopefully you're able to hear them.

It's always harder to tell from recordings but I think I here your concern. Where was the phone at when you made these recordings?

EDIT: Also, something that could be affecting this. Are you filling back up using the dipstick to measure when its full? My 2014 and other earlier 3.6L engines left the factory with the wrong dipstick (too short) which resulted in the stick only showing full with an extra quart if oil in. I believe the TSB called it a "miscalibrated" dipstick. Too much oil might cause excessive noise when hot too (I think).

 

[borgille]

Yeah it sounds a bit different in the recordings. For the ones not under the truck, I was holding the phone just over the intake air filter. Definitely closer to where the sound seemed to be originating from. Tried to be consistent with my placement to provide a fair comparison. I really wish I could record the sound from the stethoscope probe.

I think the dipstick is probably ok. Oil starts showing up on it with about 5.5 qts. I put almost 6 in it when I changed the oil last month.

I really don't want to take it apart again, but I got my replacement tstat yesterday, so I'll probably be working on it this weekend anyway. Just not sure if I should just revert back to the old stuff or whether I should take a chance with another set of rockers and lifters for another $150.

 

[SitKneelBend]

Yeah it sounds a bit different in the recordings. For the ones not under the truck, I was holding the phone just over the intake air filter. Definitely closer to where the sound seemed to be originating from. Tried to be consistent with my placement to provide a fair comparison. I really wish I could record the sound from the stethoscope probe.

I think the dipstick is probably ok. Oil starts showing up on it with about 5.5 qts. I put almost 6 in it when I changed the oil last month.

I really don't want to take it apart again, but I got my replacement tstat yesterday, so I'll probably be working on it this weekend anyway. Just not sure if I should just revert back to the old stuff or whether I should take a chance with another set of rockers and lifters for another $150.

It's easy enough to take some measurements and confirm part numbers if you want to rule out the oil level as the culprit. Here is the post where I solved my problem (go back to page two if you want the details/comparisons made and what to look for)...

3.6l Oil change issues

Thanks for the UPDATE . I completely forgot about it lol Thanks for the part # I book Marked it in case anyone else has a issue ! I would assume since their screw up they would pay but you never assume as the saying goes never assume Ok, I finally got around to having this fixed. The...

www.ramforum.com

Edit: If I get a chance today I'll make a recording from the same location as you to compare sounds. Not perfect but it may help?

 

[SitKneelBend]

Here is a recording of mine after 1 hour of highway driving. The phone is resting on the fender, near the air filter housing with the hood open...

Sound record (2022-03-04 16_35_20).m4a

drive.google.com

 

[borgille]

A little muffled, but from what I can hear, it sounds pretty normal. Mine sounded like that before I changed the rockers and lifters. I suspect any slight ticking is just the injectors. When I put a probe on the fuel rail, they're pretty noisy.

Anyway, I'm about to start working on it again to put the old stuff back in. I took a few minutes to scrutinize all of the old parts, and I did find one lifter that had some play in it. Everything else seemed to be pretty tight. So, I'll have to run and get at least one lifter from the local store. I'm not sure if Amazon will take back the new stuff that I'm taking out, but I'm going to try to return it. I got two sets (one unopened) for each side of the engine.

 

[SitKneelBend]

A little muffled, but from what I can hear, it sounds pretty normal. Mine sounded like that before I changed the rockers and lifters. I suspect any slight ticking is just the injectors. When I put a probe on the fuel rail, they're pretty noisy.

Anyway, I'm about to start working on it again to put the old stuff back in. I took a few minutes to scrutinize all of the old parts, and I did find one lifter that had some play in it. Everything else seemed to be pretty tight. So, I'll have to run and get at least one lifter from the local store. I'm not sure if Amazon will take back the new stuff that I'm taking out, but I'm going to try to return it. I got two sets (one unopened) for each side of the engine.

Amazon takes back almost anything in my experience! Sometimes they even tell you to keep it...

 

[borgille]

So, I found one bad lifter in the new batch after I took it apart, so maybe that was the tapping sound I was hearing. Now that I have it all back together, the truck is running really rough and the exhaust is rich with gas smells. I didn't let it run long. I have a hunch it's an ignition problem, but not 100% sure about that. I pulled the coil packs out, checked them, and put them back, but got the same thing...it actually almost sounded like it was having difficulty starting after I checked the coils. I was hoping that I wouldn't be spending the night researching this stuff, but guess that's what I'll be doing now. Arrrgghhh!

 

[borgille]

For some reason, my last message didn't show up until I tapped out a new one. Guess there's no way to delete messages.

 

[SitKneelBend]

For some reason, my last message didn't show up until I tapped out a new one. Guess there's no way to delete messages.

Well since you are in there anyway, there is a company that makes aftermarket coil packs that are supposed to improve performance. RIPP coil packs for the Pentastar 3.6. In addition, they improved the OEM intake manifold in 2016 (I think) which is supposed to be freer flowing than what you currently have.

If you're interested I'll post some links...

 

[borgille]

Yeah, I'll probably have to change them out at some point, so having some good options is welcome. Have you ever heard of the plug contacts in the boot getting dirty where cleaning them might help? I checked the coil pack's spark plug boot...didn't see anything wrong with that either.

This issue is really bugging me. The truck was running ok (with the exception of the ticking) before I took it apart today. Now that it's starting rough, I'm wondering if I did something wrong when I put it back together -- just not really sure what I could have screwed up. It might be electrical -- I removed pretty much all of the connectors to get most of the electrical harness out of the way. That includes the connectors for the plugs and the injectors on that right (passenger) side. It also included the cam position sensor connector and the VVT camshaft actuator phaser solenoids on the front of the valve cover.

Some sites seem to suggest that rough start and smell of gas might be due to the camshaft position sensor on the top of the valve cover. It has to be removed to get the cover off. It's pretty easy to remove, so I guess that's something else I can check.

 

[PoMansRam]

Man.. You've been elbow deep in your pentastar more than your average Ram/Jeep tech at this point. If you pulled the cams, are you sure the cam timing is right?

I'd think you'd be getting misfire codes for the specific cylinders that had coil issues, if a coil / connection was the problem. Same with the cam position sensor.

I do know from following the innerwebs that rocker problems seem to cause the most misfire issues due to compression loss with pentastars.

I've seen guys online do relative compression tests with an amp clamp to determine which cylinder is dead.

Does the engine sound normal while cranking it in clear flood mode? You're definitely not getting the rythmic sound of a no compression cylinder?

 

[SitKneelBend]

Yeah, I'll probably have to change them out at some point, so having some good options is welcome. Have you ever heard of the plug contacts in the boot getting dirty where cleaning them might help? I checked the coil pack's spark plug boot...didn't see anything wrong with that either.

This issue is really bugging me. The truck was running ok (with the exception of the ticking) before I took it apart today. Now that it's starting rough, I'm wondering if I did something wrong when I put it back together -- just not really sure what I could have screwed up. It might be electrical -- I removed pretty much all of the connectors to get most of the electrical harness out of the way. That includes the connectors for the plugs and the injectors on that right (passenger) side. It also included the cam position sensor connector and the VVT camshaft actuator phaser solenoids on the front of the valve cover.

Some sites seem to suggest that rough start and smell of gas might be due to the camshaft position sensor on the top of the valve cover. It has to be removed to get the cover off. It's pretty easy to remove, so I guess that's something else I can check.

RIPP Coil Packs...

RIPP V6 High Performance Coil Packs

RIPP High Performance Coil Packs for the 3.6L Pentastar engines are the ultimate solution for those seeking maximum power gain without sacrificing reliability. Our coil packs generate significantly more spark energy during the combustion cycle than stock/OEM coils - adding up to 15-20 real world HP.

rippmods.com

Intake mod (part numbers in video description)...

Pentastar V6 | PUG Upgrade | Lower intake manifold

So here we go. We are installing the lower intake manifold from the 2018 and up Chrysler, Dodge, RAM, Jeep V6 Pentastar Engine with the start/stop technology...

youtu.be

As far as the fuel/rough running issue. I'm not sure myself but maybe someone else can chime in?

Edit: @PoMansRam , any ideas? You seem to be pretty knowledgeable on the 3.6L in general from my experience.

 

[borgille]

Man.. You've been elbow deep in your pentastar more than your average Ram/Jeep tech at this point. If you pulled the cams, are you sure the cam timing is right?
I'd think you'd be getting misfire codes for the specific cylinders that had coil issues, if a coil / connection was the problem. Same with the cam position sensor.
I do know from following the innerwebs that rocker problems seem to cause the most misfire issues due to compression loss with pentastars.
I've seen guys online do relative compression tests with an amp clamp to determine which cylinder is dead.
Does the engine sound normal while cranking it in clear flood mode? You're definitely not getting the rythmic sound of a no compression cylinder?

Thanks for the input! I don't think I let it run long enough for the ECU to generate any codes -- maybe 5 seconds. I haven't yet tried cranking in clear flood mode, but I'll give it a shot. TBH, I hadn't even heard of it, but google says it's basically pushing the gas pedal past 80% when starting -- I assume that's what you are talking about, right? Reminds me of when I was younger (in the 80s) when my dad would press the pedal to the floor board when trying to start a hard-starting car...can't remember if he did it when it was flooded, but I do remember doing something similar at times.

I checked all of the rockers and lifters before installing them. The ones that I installed all felt solid without any play in them. I regret now ever trying to replace them as the only reason I was even digging that far down to remove the cover was to replace the gasket and fix an oil leak. I am curious about the relative compression tests that you mentioned.

Regarding the timing, I pretty much followed the procedure from David Pike's (Motorcity Mechanic) awesome videos (part 1/part 2) for pulling the cams and replacing the rockers and lifters. I have those cheap plastic tools for locking the phasers and providing slack on the timing chain. The timing chain never came off the phasers, and the cams are keyed to the phasers, so I'm pretty sure I didn't mess that up. I removed cams one at a time. Here are some pics where you can see how I removed the intake cam (right side) by pulling the phaser forward with the locking tool in place (the detensioner tool is on the back side of the phaser):



I double checked my work on pretty much everything when I was putting it all together. I know the Pentastar cams have magnetic timing wheels that you can mess up if you get them too close to a magnetic source. The service docs warn about that:



Seems like a fragile or non-robust design, IMO. They also seem to collect a small amount of very fine (like powdery) ferrous metal bits over time. At any rate, the cams went straight from their bearing recesses, after the caps were removed, to my makeshift wooden bench (as seen in the pic above) and back to their recesses during installation.

Anything else I could be missing? I'll probably check the cam position sensor just to make sure I didn't damage it and then hang it up for the night.

Thanks again for the input!

PS. btw @SitKneelBend, you asked about the dipstick earlier, and I checked the part number on it this morning before I started doing anything. Mine is marked with 68154682AA, so I guess I have the original dispstick. Not sure if the issue was known before my warranty expired...not sure I want to know.

 

[PoMansRam]

@borgille Motor city mechanic is great. I enjoy his videos. Sounds like you've done everything right. When you say you used the plastic cam removal tools to provide slack on the timing chain, did you mean tension?

I have very little hands on experience with the pentastar other than basic maintenance. That's all I had to do with the two I owned. Assuming can can run and drive it, I think you've got to do that up to normal operating temps, see if any codes pop up, see how it runs, sounds, etc and go from there.

Yep, clear flood mode is just flooring the go pedal while you crank the engine over. The PCM won't allow fuel to be injected under those conditions, so it allows you to hear how the cranking of the engine sounds. You'll typically hear an uneven beat if there's engine mechanical issues.

 

[borgille]

@borgille Motor city mechanic is great. I enjoy his videos. Sounds like you've done everything right. When you say you used the plastic cam removal tools to provide slack on the timing chain, did you mean tension?

I have very little hands on experience with the pentastar other than basic maintenance. That's all I had to do with the two I owned. Assuming can can run and drive it, I think you've got to do that up to normal operating temps, see if any codes pop up, see how it runs, sounds, etc and go from there.

Yep, clear flood mode is just flooring the go pedal while you crank the engine over. The PCM won't allow fuel to be injected under those conditions, so it allows you to hear how the cranking of the engine sounds. You'll typically hear an uneven beat if there's engine mechanical issues.

Yeah, I was talking about the plastic tool that's used to push against the timing chain tensioner to provide enough slack to pull the phasers back. The ones I got seem to barely affect the tension, but it was obviously enough to get the job done. It also helps to use a crescent wrench on the cam's hexagonal area between the first and second bearing lobes (not sure if my terminology is right) to wiggle the cam enough to get the key on the phaser to line up.

So, today, I really didn't do much: cleaned the coil contacts in all of the boots with rubbing alcohol using a cotton swab along with their connector terminals. I also pulled the cam position sensor, inspected it and carefully inserted again, making sure that the "T" portion of it was properly seated. The cylinder head has a recessed area for the bottom of the sensor to sit in with the screw hole in the middle of it, and it doesn't look like it could go in wrong, but I swear it rotated slightly when I was torquing it the last time that I put it in. This time, it felt like it was locked into position -- I couldn't rotate it at all. I also checked all the vacuum hoses...nothing seemed to be messed up there. Got all of the electrical connectors back on and tried the clearing mode start. Cranking it sounded just fine, so I tried starting it like normal, and viola! it was running smooth again!! I let it run for about 15 minutes, and put my stethoscope probe on it both right after starting it and after letting it run the coolant up to 200 deg. Probe on the valve cover and the cylinder head in various locations sounded like a sewing machine...no ticking! I've still got to take it out for a drive so that it gets up to normal 220 operating temp, but I think it's probably looking good now.

One thing that showed up was a U0140 code right after I got it to start. Kind of a weird code, and I'm wondering if it will clear on its own after a few trips. Things that I've seen online about that code seem to indicate that it might have something to do with the battery being disconnected or not having a good connection. One thread that I saw said that dealerships just clear the code and see if it reappears right away. I could probably clear it and see what happens. I'm pretty sure that the battery terminals are well-connected.

So, now I just have to replace that crappy tstat that I got from Advance Auto last month and deal with the coolant system burping hell again...never ends.

Anyway, thanks for the assist guys! Appreciate having people to bounce ideas off of.

 

[SitKneelBend]

Yeah, I was talking about the plastic tool that's used to push against the timing chain tensioner to provide enough slack to pull the phasers back. The ones I got seem to barely affect the tension, but it was obviously enough to get the job done. It also helps to use a crescent wrench on the cam's hexagonal area between the first and second bearing lobes (not sure if my terminology is right) to wiggle the cam enough to get the key on the phaser to line up.

So, today, I really didn't do much: cleaned the coil contacts in all of the boots with rubbing alcohol using a cotton swab along with their connector terminals. I also pulled the cam position sensor, inspected it and carefully inserted again, making sure that the "T" portion of it was properly seated. The cylinder head has a recessed area for the bottom of the sensor to sit in with the screw hole in the middle of it, and it doesn't look like it could go in wrong, but I swear it rotated slightly when I was torquing it the last time that I put it in. This time, it felt like it was locked into position -- I couldn't rotate it at all. I also checked all the vacuum hoses...nothing seemed to be messed up there. Got all of the electrical connectors back on and tried the clearing mode start. Cranking it sounded just fine, so I tried starting it like normal, and viola! it was running smooth again!! I let it run for about 15 minutes, and put my stethoscope probe on it both right after starting it and after letting it run the coolant up to 200 deg. Probe on the valve cover and the cylinder head in various locations sounded like a sewing machine...no ticking! I've still got to take it out for a drive so that it gets up to normal 220 operating temp, but I think it's probably looking good now.

One thing that showed up was a U0140 code right after I got it to start. Kind of a weird code, and I'm wondering if it will clear on its own after a few trips. Things that I've seen online about that code seem to indicate that it might have something to do with the battery being disconnected or not having a good connection. One thread that I saw said that dealerships just clear the code and see if it reappears right away. I could probably clear it and see what happens. I'm pretty sure that the battery terminals are well-connected.

So, now I just have to replace that crappy tstat that I got from Advance Auto last month and deal with the coolant system burping hell again...never ends.

Anyway, thanks for the assist guys! Appreciate having people to bounce ideas off of.

I'm glad you got it squared away! Your troubleshooting experience when it comes to the engine itself is above my current level!