2015 ram 1500 Lifter failure… dreaded

[Wild one]

This pretty well says it all about that article,as there's really nothing new in that article that isn't already common knowledge.

Chrysler Built Hemi Engines With A Major Engineering Defect And I May Try To Profit From It​

 

[Wild one]

Poor quality parts /weak valve springs / moving the cam tunnel up farther to accomadate the VVT tunnel / oils with not enough additives /using an engineer (Tom Hoover) to basically design a race engine,and then not following his reconmendations to use a billet cam ,probably are the root causes of the issues.
When they recast the blocks in 09 one of the mistakes they made was putting the VVT tunnel under the cam,which restricts oil from the crank making it onto the cam lobes,if the VVT oil passage was located above the cam,there'd probably be alot less issues with the cams,but then Hoover wouldn't of been able to design a valvetrain thats good for 9,000 rpm.Biggest mistake was using a race engineer to design a passenger car/truck engine,and then ignoring his reconmendations due to cost factors

 

[Ken226]

Poor quality parts /weak valve springs / moving the cam tunnel up farther to accomadate the VVT tunnel / and oils with not enough additives /using an engineer (Tom Hoover) to basically design a race engine,and then not following his reconmendations to use a billet cam ,probably are the root causes of the issues

Yea, I was hoping for a redesign to a Gen4 Hemi.

It looks like what we actually got was a 3 liter twin turbo strait 6. Time will tell how that idea works out.

 

[JHoward]

There isn't an complete and never will, be documentation about the countless HEMI lifter/cam failures from~(2009-end of the HEMI engine run~2023)that have occurred, only in posts such as this one that gets added to the seemingly endless possibility of the such dreaded lifters/cam failures.

Yep, the oil and filter debate has been beaten down to the ground here in the RAMforum and it comes down to the "individual owners" that that matters of which oils are good for the HEMI engine even after miles long debates over in the synthetic oil threads.

Btw, good post and hopefully many more miles from your HEMI.

... I'm anticipating and dreading if or when my HEMI implodes.

 

[Wild one]

Yea, I was hoping for a redesign to a Gen4 Hemi.

It looks like what we actually got was a 3 liter twin turbo strait 6. Time will tell how that idea works out.

If i was building a big cube 426 that is using a cam with the VVT locked out,i'd probably use the earlier 6.1 block with the later 6.4 truck heads.The 6.1 block doesn't have the VVT tunnel,and the cam is closer to the crank,so more crank splash makes it onto the cam lobe and lifter roller.
The earlier pre-09 engines don't have the same amount of lifter failures as the later engines have

 

[Burla]

I noticed in that Dr. guys article above, he specified "under certain operating conditions". I wonder if perhaps the viscocity @ 212 isn't the temp where the lash issue may occur, but under some other condition.

Since the 6.4 uses 0w40, but it "must" be ms-12633 certified, and the one feature of ms-12633 that effects the Cam/lifters seams to be it's "low temperature pumpability",

i was looking up the spec sheets of the oils mentioned, just to see under what specific condition does 0w40 more closely match 5w20, and deviate most from 5w30.

The below spec sheets are from Schaeffer Oil.

So, here is 0w40 ms-12633. The Cold Crank Viscosity is 4347:

https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/316-9040-td.pdf

View attachment 550489





I'll compare that 0w40 ms-12633 that the 6.4 Hemi uses to spec sheets from the common 5.7 oils, 5w20 and 5w30.


Here is Shaefer's 5w20 spec sheet. The Cold Cranking Viscosity is 4582. The number is a little higher than the 0w40 ms-12633. Anyone know if higher means thicker or thinner? Either way, it's so close that it probably doesn't matter:

https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/254-9004-td.pdf

View attachment 550490





Now comparing the 0w40 ms-12633 to 5w30 for the same Cold Cranking Viscosity. So, if 5w30 has a Cold Cranking Viscosity of 5104, it seems to more significantly diverge from the 0w40 ms12622's CCV of 4347. So, does 5104 mean that 5w30s CCV is significantly thicker than the 0w40 and 5w20? If so, does that mean that it would effect the lifters lash more at low temps, and maybe flow more slowly down to the needle bearings? At low temps, until it warms up.

https://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/247-9003D-td.pdf

View attachment 550491

Since the 5w30 has a higher cold cranking viscosity number than the other two, i'm assuming that higher is thicker. Still not sure though.


Or, maybe I'm reading that backwards and it means the opposite. Or nothing at all.

It is hard to compare CCS since they test the oils at two different cold temps due to different winter ratings, but to answer your question you can see what is thinner in the cold, and trust me when I say it gets way more worse for 0w40 when it is cold. Manu's went to 0w40 as a group due to relaxed regulations for HD oil compared to strenuous rules facing 20 and 30 weights at the time, and now even 15 weights that are heavily regulated to have low additives. Plus a side benefit, that 40 weight is gonna give good protection especially for 100k miles, but as trucks come out of warranty all of those vii's that sheared and the varnish they have created may tank that engine right at the proper time for it to pay off for ram.

 

[Burla]

To get cold flow numbers all they do it punch in the value at 40c and 100c, plug in any oil you get the results with those viscosity calculators. Bottom line 0w40 is thicker then 5w30 in the cold, probably even 10w30 depending on those values. All winter ratings means is the best cold flow you can make a 40 weight oil, not that it will flow better then a 5 winter rating on a thinner oil. Not sure if this helps op, sorry bout that.

 

[ramffml]

To get cold flow numbers all they do it punch in the value at 40c and 100c, plug in any oil you get the results with those viscosity calculators. Bottom line 0w40 is thicker then 5w30 in the cold, probably even 10w30 depending on those values. All winter ratings means is the best cold flow you can make a 40 weight oil, not that it will flow better then a 5 winter rating on a thinner oil. Not sure if this helps op, sorry bout that.

So I've been trying to wrap my mind around all this, I believe we discussed this last month as well, and I don't think that is accurate. SAE 300 has very specific tests that determine the winter rating, and they have nothing to do with the summer grade aspect, they are independent tests.

The winter rating test is a measurement of how much twisting force (pumpability), measured in centaPoise, it takes at a given temperature.

A 10w winter rating has to measure < 7000 cP @ -25C
A 5w winter rating has to measure < 6000 cP @ -30C
A 0w winter rating has to measure < 6200 cP @ -35C

An oil is certified at the lowest test it passes. So if an oil fails to meet 0w, but passes 5w and 10w then it is rated as a 5w.

This means that every 0w-XX oil will pump easier than every 5w-XX oil in the cold.

The summer grade is measured independently, and measures how well it flows at 100C, as well as the HT/HS @ 150C.
A 40 grade oil has to be between 12.5 - 16.3 cSt @ 100C, with an HT/HS > 2.9 cP @ 150C.
A 30 grade oil has to be between 9.3 - 12.5 cSt @ 100C, with an HT/HS > 2.9 cP @ 150C.
A 20 grade oil has to be between 5.6 - 9.3 cSt @ 100C, with an HT/HS > 2.6 cP @ 150C.

So every 0w oil should perform better in your engine in the cold, than any 5w will. The 0w is not relative to the -XX, its a measurement of how well it pumps in the cold independently of the -XX summer grade.

I watched this video from LakespeedJr and the wikipedia link below to get these values and try to understand how it works. If I got it wrong, please let me know!

The "W" DOESN'T Stand For WEIGHT! A Certified Lubrication Specialist Explains SAE Viscosity Grades.

20W-50, 5W-30, 0W-20... These viscosity grades are all available at the local auto parts store, but a 0W-20 is not a Zero Weight oil. The "W" in 0W-20 actual...

www.youtube.com

Wikipedia:

SAE J300 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Burla]

So this was my point thanks...

A 10w winter rating has to measure < 7000 cP @ -25C
A 5w winter rating has to measure < 6000 cP @ -30C
A 0w winter rating has to measure < 6200 cP @ -35C

As you see they test 10 winter ratings at -25, 5w at -30, and 0 at -35. You don't even have the values of each oil at each temp. So knowing how a 5 winter would measure at -35 is an unknown or an assumption? BTW, I have always had an issue with this, they should have values for all of these at every cold temps.

So what you are saying is 5w30 redline if it was tested at -35 and was under 6200 cp then it would be a 0w30. Not sure about that either way, but going back to 0w40 it is gonna be thicker colder and it will be a large number. What I want you to think about, you said any 0 winter rated with perform better in the cold then any 5, well the easy way to solve that is compare 5w20 versus 0w40, it isn't particularly close.

It is very easy, if you graph 0w20 versus 5w20, they are always very close all the way down to freezing? Similar to 0w30 and 5w30, only even more close. Answer yes, they are very close cold flow, if you look at the pic I posted, if what you say is true a 5w20 oil with be thicker then the green line even though 0w20 is radically different yes? I promise you a 5w20 would be in-between 0w20 and 0w30. What you are saying at -30 the 5w20 would jump the graph and flow slower then 0w40, because that is what CCS numbers say at that temp. So at that temp the blue line would jump over the green line. Not the exact blue line, but a 5w20 that had values lets call is a light blue like that closely followed that blue line, that light blue would jump the green line. Also, that at -35 the green line and blue line as posted, would actually meet exactly at -35, because they are both 0 winter rated despite weight shouldn't matter?

And it isn't related to a specific warm measurement of viscosity, but rather how it compares to other viscosity measurement "room temp" and a hot temperature reading.

 

[ramffml]

So this was my point thanks...

A 10w winter rating has to measure < 7000 cP @ -25C
A 5w winter rating has to measure < 6000 cP @ -30C
A 0w winter rating has to measure < 6200 cP @ -35C

As you see they test 10 winter ratings at -25, 5w at -30, and 0 at -35. You don't even have the values of each oil at each temp. So knowing how a 5 winter would measure at -35 is an unknown or an assumption? BTW, I have always had an issue with this, they should have values for all of these at every cold temps.

So what you are saying is 5w30 redline if it was tested at -35 and was under 6200 cp then it would be a 0w30. Not sure about that either way, but going back to 0w40 it is gonna be thicker colder and it will be a large number. What I want you to think about, you said any 0 winter rated with perform better in the cold then any 5, well the easy way to solve that is compare 5w20 versus 0w40, it isn't particularly close.

It is very easy, if you graph 0w20 versus 5w20, they are always very close all the way down to freezing? Similar to 0w30 and 5w30, only even more close. Answer yes, they are very close cold flow, if you look at the pic I posted, if what you say is true a 5w20 oil with be thicker then the green line even though 0w20 is radically different yes? I promise you a 5w20 would be in-between 0w20 and 0w30. What you are saying at -30 the 5w20 would jump the graph and flow slower then 0w40, because that is what CCS numbers say at that temp. So at that temp the blue line would jump over the green line. Not the exact blue line, but a 5w20 that had values lets call is a light blue like that closely followed that blue line, that light blue would jump the green line. Also, that at -35 the green line and blue line as posted, would actually meet exactly at -35, because they are both 0 winter rated despite weight shouldn't matter?

And it isn't related to a specific warm measurement of viscosity, but rather how it compares to other viscosity measurement "room temp" and a hot temperature reading.


View attachment 550532

Agreed that it'd be nice to see the values at all the temps.

I can see how the viscosity is higher on the 0w-40, but I think there are different things going on here; pumpability, viscosity, flow, these are not the same things right? Viscosity alone isn't the indicator of how well an oil can lubricate your engine in the winter?

I read a comment from TomNJ on bitog a while back which compared oil to jello; when it's cold out, an oil can be almost gel like, so one test measures how easy it is to suck/pump that oil through the pickup tube and into the engine, another test is used to determine how quickly the rest of the oil fills that void left by the suction; jelly doesn't flow, you suck through a straw and you get a "hole" and the jello/oil doesn't fill in that blank spot; there is a test for that in the J300 as well.

I can't go any further on this without reading more unfortunately so I will keep looking, I'm now more confused than ever though, so thanks for that lol.

 

[ramffml]

So this was my point thanks...

A 10w winter rating has to measure < 7000 cP @ -25C
A 5w winter rating has to measure < 6000 cP @ -30C
A 0w winter rating has to measure < 6200 cP @ -35C

As you see they test 10 winter ratings at -25, 5w at -30, and 0 at -35. You don't even have the values of each oil at each temp. So knowing how a 5 winter would measure at -35 is an unknown or an assumption? BTW, I have always had an issue with this, they should have values for all of these at every cold temps.

So what you are saying is 5w30 redline if it was tested at -35 and was under 6200 cp then it would be a 0w30. Not sure about that either way, but going back to 0w40 it is gonna be thicker colder and it will be a large number. What I want you to think about, you said any 0 winter rated with perform better in the cold then any 5, well the easy way to solve that is compare 5w20 versus 0w40, it isn't particularly close.

It is very easy, if you graph 0w20 versus 5w20, they are always very close all the way down to freezing? Similar to 0w30 and 5w30, only even more close. Answer yes, they are very close cold flow, if you look at the pic I posted, if what you say is true a 5w20 oil with be thicker then the green line even though 0w20 is radically different yes? I promise you a 5w20 would be in-between 0w20 and 0w30. What you are saying at -30 the 5w20 would jump the graph and flow slower then 0w40, because that is what CCS numbers say at that temp. So at that temp the blue line would jump over the green line. Not the exact blue line, but a 5w20 that had values lets call is a light blue like that closely followed that blue line, that light blue would jump the green line. Also, that at -35 the green line and blue line as posted, would actually meet exactly at -35, because they are both 0 winter rated despite weight shouldn't matter?

And it isn't related to a specific warm measurement of viscosity, but rather how it compares to other viscosity measurement "room temp" and a hot temperature reading.


View attachment 550532

So this is interesting, I used HPL Premium Plus at 4 different grades and plotted the results, I wanted the same formula on all 4 oils to make it as apples to apples as possible and I have the PDS for that oil already so it was quick/easy to do.

Anyway, this graph goes out to -35C whereas yours stops at 30C, and there is an important detail in my graph that doesn't appear in yours, a little crossover of 0w-40 and 5w-20? Right around -20C the viscosity becomes lower on the 0w-40 as you get colder and colder past that point.

I wonder if this is just a thing due to curve fitting on two points and this not being 100% accurate, or maybe it's just a fluke of this formula... or if this detail holds true for more oils as well? Any chance you could rerun your oils but down to -35C instead?

 

[Barr2255]

Dang guys, you love talking about oil lol.

I didn’t get around to pulling the timing cover off today but I did get everything ordered today. Wen’t with Felpro gaskets pretty much all the way around. ARP head bolts that are not TTY, pricy little things. Mopar OEM can and lifters. The cam was $395 from mopar the lifters I got off EBay for $500. Made sure they were actually Mopar brand part numbers ending in 86AD and 85AD. I went ahead and bought all new springs and push rods, they are cheap and I’ve already had to replace a couple springs so if I was gambling man I would say I’m over due for another one to break.

I talked to a local machine shop, they are going to jet wash the heads, surface them and vacuum test to ensure valves and seats are good. $300 to do the pair, $40 for the pair of them to take off the old springs install the new ones and valve seals. Pretty stoked about that because it’s a bit of a tedious task especially changing 16 springs. They are also table sanding the other exhaust manifold that I hadn’t taken off prior to this tear down but they are doing that for free.

Just need to get the timing cover off and which shouldn’t take me more than a half hour and clean the block mating surface. Everything should be here by the end of next week and the machine shop said they would turn the heads over the same day.

Instead of the oil topic let’s hear your guys thoughts on brands, or things that should be done while the motors apart that are easier to replace, like the MDS solenoids, replace now or when they take a crap? They are pretty darn pricy!

 

[Burla]

Dang guys, you love talking about oil lol.

I didn’t get around to pulling the timing cover off today but I did get everything ordered today. Wen’t with Felpro gaskets pretty much all the way around. ARP head bolts that are not TTY, pricy little things. Mopar OEM can and lifters. The cam was $395 from mopar the lifters I got off EBay for $500. Made sure they were actually Mopar brand part numbers ending in 86AD and 85AD. I went ahead and bought all new springs and push rods, they are cheap and I’ve already had to replace a couple springs so if I was gambling man I would say I’m over due for another one to break.

I talked to a local machine shop, they are going to jet wash the heads, surface them and vacuum test to ensure valves and seats are good. $300 to do the pair, $40 for the pair of them to take off the old springs install the new ones and valve seals. Pretty stoked about that because it’s a bit of a tedious task especially changing 16 springs. They are also table sanding the other exhaust manifold that I hadn’t taken off prior to this tear down but they are doing that for free.

Just need to get the timing cover off and which shouldn’t take me more than a half hour and clean the block mating surface. Everything should be here by the end of next week and the machine shop said they would turn the heads over the same day.

Instead of the oil topic let’s hear your guys thoughts on brands, or things that should be done while the motors apart that are easier to replace, like the MDS solenoids, replace now or when they take a crap? They are pretty darn pricy!

lol sorry number 2. Most the time Mopar OEM is good for parts.

 

[Burla]

So this is interesting, I used HPL Premium Plus at 4 different grades and plotted the results, I wanted the same formula on all 4 oils to make it as apples to apples as possible and I have the PDS for that oil already so it was quick/easy to do.

Anyway, this graph goes out to -35C whereas yours stops at 30C, and there is an important detail in my graph that doesn't appear in yours, a little crossover of 0w-40 and 5w-20? Right around -20C the viscosity becomes lower on the 0w-40 as you get colder and colder past that point.

I wonder if this is just a thing due to curve fitting on two points and this not being 100% accurate, or maybe it's just a fluke of this formula... or if this detail holds true for more oils as well? Any chance you could rerun your oils but down to -35C instead?


View attachment 550541

I don't want to cramp this guys thread anymore, but like you see 0w20 and 0w40 doesn't have the same cold properties anyhow, case is closed. We can do more in syn thread, interesting disc.

 

[JHoward]

Dang guys, you love talking about oil lol.

I didn’t get around to pulling the timing cover off today but I did get everything ordered today. Wen’t with Felpro gaskets pretty much all the way around. ARP head bolts that are not TTY, pricy little things. Mopar OEM can and lifters. The cam was $395 from mopar the lifters I got off EBay for $500. Made sure they were actually Mopar brand part numbers ending in 86AD and 85AD. I went ahead and bought all new springs and push rods, they are cheap and I’ve already had to replace a couple springs so if I was gambling man I would say I’m over due for another one to break.

I talked to a local machine shop, they are going to jet wash the heads, surface them and vacuum test to ensure valves and seats are good. $300 to do the pair, $40 for the pair of them to take off the old springs install the new ones and valve seals. Pretty stoked about that because it’s a bit of a tedious task especially changing 16 springs. They are also table sanding the other exhaust manifold that I hadn’t taken off prior to this tear down but they are doing that for free.

Just need to get the timing cover off and which shouldn’t take me more than a half hour and clean the block mating surface. Everything should be here by the end of next week and the machine shop said they would turn the heads over the same day.

Instead of the oil topic let’s hear your guys thoughts on brands, or things that should be done while the motors apart that are easier to replace, like the MDS solenoids, replace now or when they take a crap? They are pretty darn pricy!

Did you consider doing just an MDS delete prior to just replacing cam/lifters?

 

[Barr2255]

I did, but I don’t think the lifters are solely the issue. The MDS delete is more difficult on my truck as well being a 2015. I’d have to send the PCM in to get unlocked or do the Pulsar modluar in order to have tuning capability to disable the MDS. I think the cam being elevated in the tunnel is more of an issue than anything, as far as the failures go and lubrication. I decided this after talking to AMS racing, Texas speed, and surfing this forum. Also after pulling the lifters and the ones that had weird scoring marks were the ones towards the front and had a light film of oil, the ones towards the back were drenched in oil and looked perfect.

I don’t really care about fuel mileage honestly so MDS is irrelevant to me but the headache of doing all the other stuff wasn’t worth it to me.

I “might” own this truck another 3 years but my wife and I live on property, we have horses, hogs, cows and other livestock I tow a stock trailer often and the amount of people these days wanting to buy hogs, lambs, and cows is getting to the point where I will need to buy a newer diesel and bigger trailer to be able to haul what I need in order to supply the demand. It’s a side gig but non the less it’s important to us.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I’m fixing this truck because I have the capacity to do it. Don’t want to pawn it off on someone else via a trade in.

I’m all ears on your opinion and everyone else’s though. Lets hear it, makes everyone grow in one way the other

 

[Barr2255]

@Burla
I’m relatively new to the forum but have surfed it for years. Have you ever done these repairs?

 

[Burla]

@Burla
I’m relatively new to the forum but have surfed it for years. Have you ever done these repairs?

This is my first gas dodge and I have avoided these repairs or any major work on my now 15 year old ram. I have seen metalurgy on OEM cam and lifters, it isn't the metal, it is not "soft". The issue sadly is bad design most likely in lubrication galleys. As far as recommending oem years on this forum has proven this is the safe choice, not necessarily the performance choice, but we have seen many after market parts, counterfeit parts and sensors fail, and I would bet that is the last thing you would want. Wild one is a great resource for been in that hemi and knowing it hands dirty.

 

[Barr2255]

Interesting, I was curious because you talk like a seasoned vet and I see you posting all the time regarding the lifter issues. What is your experiance wrenching on engines?

I have an 04 Dodge 2500 with the hemi with 170k miles (it’s my farm truck) besides the brittle dash and a broken valve spring it’s been a great truck since I bought it with 10k miles. Mobil one and a knn oil filter every 5k. Its certainly been over loaded and abused since my ownership but it never skips a beat.

 

[Wild one]

I did, but I don’t think the lifters are solely the issue. The MDS delete is more difficult on my truck as well being a 2015. I’d have to send the PCM in to get unlocked or do the Pulsar modluar in order to have tuning capability to disable the MDS. I think the cam being elevated in the tunnel is more of an issue than anything, as far as the failures go and lubrication. I decided this after talking to AMS racing, Texas speed, and surfing this forum. Also after pulling the lifters and the ones that had weird scoring marks were the ones towards the front and had a light film of oil, the ones towards the back were drenched in oil and looked perfect.

I don’t really care about fuel mileage honestly so MDS is irrelevant to me but the headache of doing all the other stuff wasn’t worth it to me.

I “might” own this truck another 3 years but my wife and I live on property, we have horses, hogs, cows and other livestock I tow a stock trailer often and the amount of people these days wanting to buy hogs, lambs, and cows is getting to the point where I will need to buy a newer diesel and bigger trailer to be able to haul what I need in order to supply the demand. It’s a side gig but non the less it’s important to us.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I’m fixing this truck because I have the capacity to do it. Don’t want to pawn it off on someone else via a trade in.

I’m all ears on your opinion and everyone else’s though. Lets hear it, makes everyone grow in one way the other

Did you pull the vvt solenoid out and check it's screen over for metal filings/shavings. If the mds wasn't giving you issues,you can probably leave the solenoids alone,they aren't that hard to get at if they do give you issues down the road. I'm not a huge fan of the hellcat or melling pump upgrades,i'd rather up the idle rpm to 750 with the stock pump,but that entails tuning it,and if that's out,you could do the melling pump with the low pressure bypass spring,or the hellcat pump,and use the bypass spring out of your stock pump.If the truck had good oil pressure though,i wouldn't even mess with the oil pump,as it's not the easiest thing to change on a 4X4.Water pump and idler pulleys you might to change especially if the milege is getting up there.
ARP head bolts are over kill,but not a bad idea,you can re-use the factory head bolts if you check them for stretch,mopar does have a stretch limit if you go digging,but seeing as how you have arps i wouldn't worry about digging that info up.
I'd hunt up a set of Remflex 6022 gaskets for the exhaust manifolds,they're a graphite gasket,that'll absorb expansion/contraction better then a multi-layer steel exhaust gasket will.
Doesn't hurt to hose out the inside of the intake manifold with a high pressure washer,or at your local coin-op carwash,so you start out with a clean intake manifold,to go along with your cleaned up heads