$50 REWARD for solution - 97 Laramie 5.9 - DYING

[Prideless]

With the understanding this truck could be taken to a dealer and "possibly" get resolved, I am on this site precisely to avoid just that, so please do not suggest it yet again. This has been a nightmare for more than a year. I will pay $50 CASH to the first person that comes up with THE correct solution to my issue, except anyone that suggests taking it to a dealer. Being a poor veteran, disabled, on a fixed income, though I have now paid enough for parts to have taken it to a dealer, I still cannot now afford to do that.

FYI - I was a Jet Engine Mechanic in the USAF, and I once worked as a mechanic in a Buick-Pontiac-GMC-Jeep dealership, but this has me stumped.

This is detailed and extensive, so thank you up front for your patience in even reading all this information. An extraordinary number of issues were found, but the ORIGINAL culprit has eluded all the troubleshooting. I am using an INNOVA 3040c scanner.

Initial problem - After driving about 13 miles, engine would cut off while coasting to a stop. Would not restart from 5 to 10 minutes. Would cut off a number of times, having to wait each time, until I got it back home. THREW NO CODES whatsoever. This happened on over a dozen trips.

Other than the precise issues discussed below, this engine runs perfectly smooth, accelerates smooth, and runs great. Many of the times it has cut off occurs very shortly after letting off the gas pedal. Can a throttle position sensor cause this crap?

4/28/20 - 169900 miles - REPLACED IGNITION COIL - no help, REPLACED GAS CAP - no help

5/2/20 - 169979 - REPLACED IGNITION SWITCH - no help

5/7/20 - 169985 - REPLACED CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR - no help

6/15/20 - 170031 - REPLACED IDLE AIR CONTROL SOLENOID - no help

7/6/20 - 170087 - Found connector lock on fuel pump missing, connector loose, corrected - no help

8/20/20 - 170201 - REPLACED FUEL PUMP AND FILTER - filter was clogged and a port cap was dry rotted so bad the top was gone such that it was venting fuel into my driveway - no help

8/25/20 - 170211 - REPLACED PICK-UP COIL - seemingly fixed, but noooooooo

4/21/21 - 170405 - REPLACED PCM - no help

4/23/21 - 170405 - REPLACED DISTRIBUTOR CAP, ROTOR, IGNITION WIRES, SPARK PLUGS - ran 4 minutes before cutting off - NO CODES

4/25/21 - 170405 - REPLACED BATTERY - Ran for 40 minutes, then drove 6 miles with no issues except a momentary "buck" a couple of times (as if the ignition switch had been turned off and immediately back on again while driving), but never cut off completely.

6/2/21 - 170444 - Today it threw 2 codes - P0351 and P0441 - Cleared codes - CHECKED ALL ENGINE BAY GROUNDS. Drove 25 minutes with no issues. Finally something to work with, but what could possibly be wrong with a completely replaced ignition system? Yes everything has been quadruple checked.

6/16/21 - 170811 - Drove over 300 miles today. Most in years. At about mile 200 it backfired on interstate while going 75mph and left a black ball of smoke behind it. It cut off. I thought it threw a rod. Pulled off road, thoroughly inspected, not a drop of oil anywhere. Surprisingly started right up and finished trip, but it acted like the switch had been turned off and on numerous times, backfiring each time. Now I am suspecting the cat. - NO CODES!!! REPLACED CATALYTIC CONVERTER, MUFFLER, BOTH OXYGEN SENSORS, AND ALL RELAYS IN THE UNDER HOOD POWER CENTER. Ran for about one minute before it cut off.

6/21/21 - 170811 - REPLACED PICK-UP COIL YET AGAIN. Found P0441 problem. Vapor canister barrier disolved and filled all evap lines with charcoal all the way up to the purge valve. REPLACED VAPOR CANISTER AND PURGE VALVE, CLEARED LINES. Still won't run for even a minute.

6/25/21 - 170811 - REPLACED PCM YET AGAIN. Ran 8 minutes and cut off. Now it throws oxy sensor codes. P0132 and P0138

7/1/21 - 170818 - REPLACED OXYGEN SENSORS AGAIN! - Cuts off after 21 minutes. Restarts immediately, but cuts off again after 7-1/2 minutes. Throws P0351 again, and P0132, P0135, P0138, and P0141. Interesting note: The original upstream sensor had two broken wires on it but never threw any codes, OMG!

REPLACED IDLE AIR CONTROL SOLENOID yet again. After running only 7 minutes throws P0135 and P0141. After 14-1/2 minutes throws P0132 and P0138, then cuts off. ***? My understanding is that none of these codes should set until after at least 20 minutes of fault. What the hell is going on here? Restarts immediately but only runs for less than a minute.

7/5/21 - 170818 - REPLACED MAP SENSOR - Ran for over an hour with multiple cutoffs, but never failed to restart. Took extensive notes as follows: All times are elapsed times from the initial start.

Cuts off after one minute, immediately restarted. After another minute threw code P0135 but didn't set the check engine light (CEL). After 4 minutes it set the CEL. At 5 minutes P0132, P0135, and P0138 are all set, but P0141 never sets again.

Cuts off after 9 minutes, but restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 20 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 29-1/2 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 33 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 36 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 52 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately. Wow, it ran for 16 minutes.

Cuts off after 53 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 66 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

At least is doesn't fail to restart now, for whatever good that does. This is where I have left it.

I have driven a grand total of 918 miles in the last 15 months and am scared to ever take it out again. I had to pay for a tow on one of the breakdowns.

The oxy sensors shouldn't shut off the engine and I am stumped there. Obviously I will have to take a close look at all that wiring, but it is all above the transmission and nearly impossible to even see, much less get to.

The P0351 code, though it rarely pops up, seems to indicate my coil is intermittently getting grounded, but for the life of me I don't know how. At one point it had also thrown a misfire code on Cyl 8, but that was after the ignition system was completely replaced, and it never threw that code again. The coil and plug wires are routed good with additional spiral insulation covers on all of them, yet the symptoms act just like an intermittent grounded coil wire.

THAT'S THE ENTIRE GREMLIN INFESTED STORY. I promise, given the proper info, I will send the first person that points to the correct solution $50 cash, and owe you a deep debt of gratitude. Thank you for your valued time.

 

[GTyankee]

If your engine has several coils, instead of a distributor
Try switching that coil with one in a different position
It will not cost anything except labor
If the you should see or feel any changes, you may have eliminated at least one problem

Common Symptoms of a Faulty Coil Pack​

A faulty coil pack will generally have symptoms similar to a faulty spark plug. Some of the most common tell tale signs that a coil may be defective include:

A rough idle
An unexplainably louder-than-usual engine
A noticeable lack of power
A significant drop in RPMs while accelerating for no apparent reason
A blinking or intermittently activating check engine light
An active gas warning light when the vehicle has plenty of gasoline
Smoke from the exhaust emitting intermittently, instead of in a steady stream

 

[Fast69Mopar]

With the understanding this truck could be taken to a dealer and "possibly" get resolved, I am on this site precisely to avoid just that, so please do not suggest it yet again. This has been a nightmare for more than a year. I will pay $50 CASH to the first person that comes up with THE correct solution to my issue, except anyone that suggests taking it to a dealer. Being a poor veteran, disabled, on a fixed income, though I have now paid enough for parts to have taken it to a dealer, I still cannot now afford to do that.

FYI - I was a Jet Engine Mechanic in the USAF, and I once worked as a mechanic in a Buick-Pontiac-GMC-Jeep dealership, but this has me stumped.

This is detailed and extensive, so thank you up front for your patience in even reading all this information. An extraordinary number of issues were found, but the ORIGINAL culprit has eluded all the troubleshooting. I am using an INNOVA 3040c scanner.

Initial problem - After driving about 13 miles, engine would cut off while coasting to a stop. Would not restart from 5 to 10 minutes. Would cut off a number of times, having to wait each time, until I got it back home. THREW NO CODES whatsoever. This happened on over a dozen trips.

Other than the precise issues discussed below, this engine runs perfectly smooth, accelerates smooth, and runs great. Many of the times it has cut off occurs very shortly after letting off the gas pedal. Can a throttle position sensor cause this crap?

4/28/20 - 169900 miles - REPLACED IGNITION COIL - no help, REPLACED GAS CAP - no help

5/2/20 - 169979 - REPLACED IGNITION SWITCH - no help

5/7/20 - 169985 - REPLACED CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR - no help

6/15/20 - 170031 - REPLACED IDLE AIR CONTROL SOLENOID - no help

7/6/20 - 170087 - Found connector lock on fuel pump missing, connector loose, corrected - no help

8/20/20 - 170201 - REPLACED FUEL PUMP AND FILTER - filter was clogged and a port cap was dry rotted so bad the top was gone such that it was venting fuel into my driveway - no help

8/25/20 - 170211 - REPLACED PICK-UP COIL - seemingly fixed, but noooooooo

4/21/21 - 170405 - REPLACED PCM - no help

4/23/21 - 170405 - REPLACED DISTRIBUTOR CAP, ROTOR, IGNITION WIRES, SPARK PLUGS - ran 4 minutes before cutting off - NO CODES

4/25/21 - 170405 - REPLACED BATTERY - Ran for 40 minutes, then drove 6 miles with no issues except a momentary "buck" a couple of times (as if the ignition switch had been turned off and immediately back on again while driving), but never cut off completely.

6/2/21 - 170444 - Today it threw 2 codes - P0351 and P0441 - Cleared codes - CHECKED ALL ENGINE BAY GROUNDS. Drove 25 minutes with no issues. Finally something to work with, but what could possibly be wrong with a completely replaced ignition system? Yes everything has been quadruple checked.

6/16/21 - 170811 - Drove over 300 miles today. Most in years. At about mile 200 it backfired on interstate while going 75mph and left a black ball of smoke behind it. It cut off. I thought it threw a rod. Pulled off road, thoroughly inspected, not a drop of oil anywhere. Surprisingly started right up and finished trip, but it acted like the switch had been turned off and on numerous times, backfiring each time. Now I am suspecting the cat. - NO CODES!!! REPLACED CATALYTIC CONVERTER, MUFFLER, BOTH OXYGEN SENSORS, AND ALL RELAYS IN THE UNDER HOOD POWER CENTER. Ran for about one minute before it cut off.

6/21/21 - 170811 - REPLACED PICK-UP COIL YET AGAIN. Found P0441 problem. Vapor canister barrier disolved and filled all evap lines with charcoal all the way up to the purge valve. REPLACED VAPOR CANISTER AND PURGE VALVE, CLEARED LINES. Still won't run for even a minute.

6/25/21 - 170811 - REPLACED PCM YET AGAIN. Ran 8 minutes and cut off. Now it throws oxy sensor codes. P0132 and P0138

7/1/21 - 170818 - REPLACED OXYGEN SENSORS AGAIN! - Cuts off after 21 minutes. Restarts immediately, but cuts off again after 7-1/2 minutes. Throws P0351 again, and P0132, P0135, P0138, and P0141. Interesting note: The original upstream sensor had two broken wires on it but never threw any codes, OMG!

REPLACED IDLE AIR CONTROL SOLENOID yet again. After running only 7 minutes throws P0135 and P0141. After 14-1/2 minutes throws P0132 and P0138, then cuts off. ***? My understanding is that none of these codes should set until after at least 20 minutes of fault. What the hell is going on here? Restarts immediately but only runs for less than a minute.

7/5/21 - 170818 - REPLACED MAP SENSOR - Ran for over an hour with multiple cutoffs, but never failed to restart. Took extensive notes as follows: All times are elapsed times from the initial start.

Cuts off after one minute, immediately restarted. After another minute threw code P0135 but didn't set the check engine light (CEL). After 4 minutes it set the CEL. At 5 minutes P0132, P0135, and P0138 are all set, but P0141 never sets again.

Cuts off after 9 minutes, but restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 20 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 29-1/2 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 33 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 36 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 52 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately. Wow, it ran for 16 minutes.

Cuts off after 53 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

Cuts off after 66 minutes, with same 3 DTCs, restarts immediately.

At least is doesn't fail to restart now, for whatever good that does. This is where I have left it.

I have driven a grand total of 918 miles in the last 15 months and am scared to ever take it out again. I had to pay for a tow on one of the breakdowns.

The oxy sensors shouldn't shut off the engine and I am stumped there. Obviously I will have to take a close look at all that wiring, but it is all above the transmission and nearly impossible to even see, much less get to.

The P0351 code, though it rarely pops up, seems to indicate my coil is intermittently getting grounded, but for the life of me I don't know how. At one point it had also thrown a misfire code on Cyl 8, but that was after the ignition system was completely replaced, and it never threw that code again. The coil and plug wires are routed good with additional spiral insulation covers on all of them, yet the symptoms act just like an intermittent grounded coil wire.

THAT'S THE ENTIRE GREMLIN INFESTED STORY. I promise, given the proper info, I will send the first person that points to the correct solution $50 cash, and owe you a deep debt of gratitude. Thank you for your valued time.

The very first thing I would do is wire in a test lamp to the ASD relay circuit. I use a standard automotive bulb in a socket like for the turn signals. When you turn the ignition key on the ASD relay is powered up by the PCM. The ASD relay provides power to the ignition coil, crank sensor and fuel injectors along with some other things.

Start the engine and watch the test bulb when the engine dies. Does the bulb go out when the engine dies? If so, them the PCM is not providing ASD relay control. It could be that there is a wiring issue that is causing the PCM to drop the ASD relay output.

At the same time I would have a fuel pressure gauge connected to the motor to monitor the fuel pressure when the engine dies.

 

[Prideless]

And the saga continues... Replaced the throttle position sensor today. Ran 7 minutes, and threw code P0121 - OMG! Ran 3 more minutes, threw P0132 and P0138, and cut of at 10 minutes. Barely restarted, and ran less than a minute. PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.... HELP!!!!!

 

[EdGs]

I hope you get it sorted.

I had a '91 Olds Cutlass Calais with the quad4 engine. Lots of power, but had a gremlin...

It would randomly die. Usually if you were sitting at a stop. As soon as you try to accelerate, dies. No restart for about 10 minutes. Very random, days in between incidents.

Replaced plugs, coil packs, ignition modules. Verified fuel pressure, etc. All to no avail. Finally, bought a replacement brain for it, swapped my chip. Not one more episode after that.

Hang in there.

 

[Mister Luck]

Perform Cooling system Pressure Test?
a small coolant leak into the combustion chamber or into the exhaust flow will **** o2 sensors no matter how many times you replace them

How did you test the o2 sensor to know it was bad or out of range ?

Clean Intake temp sensor and or Replace with known good one

Brake booster vacuum hose leak or brake booster itself?

Vacuum leaks in general on or around your intake manifold or valve covers.

Unmetered air coming in around the throttle body?

 

[Sandevino]

Reading through the post I have a few questions that need answers and we can hopefully sort this out.

What RPM does the engine idle at when cold and warm?

Have you inspected BOTH temp sensors? There is one feeding the dash and one feeding the PCM.

Does the engine die under load only or at idle or both?

Any unmetered air leaking into the air stream? Smoke test?

Any vacuum leaks? Brake booster status?

Have you checked or replaced the plenum gasket?

You’ve checked all engine grounds and chassis grounds?

Thanks in advance…

 

[Loudram]

If your engine has several coils, instead of a distributor
Try switching that coil with one in a different position
It will not cost anything except labor
If the you should see or feel any changes, you may have eliminated at least one problem

Common Symptoms of a Faulty Coil Pack​

A faulty coil pack will generally have symptoms similar to a faulty spark plug. Some of the most common tell tale signs that a coil may be defective include:

A rough idle
An unexplainably louder-than-usual engine
A noticeable lack of power
A significant drop in RPMs while accelerating for no apparent reason
A blinking or intermittently activating check engine light
An active gas warning light when the vehicle has plenty of gasoline
Smoke from the exhaust emitting intermittently, instead of in a steady stream

A '97 5.9 has a cap and rotor. And of course it's in a bad spot. Center back between the firewall and engine.

 

[GTyankee]

I would double check the magnetic pickup & voltage regulator
The voltage regulator may be inside of the alternator
( personally i rather have an external voltage regulator, but i am an old cuss )

 

[Hero6]

My thoughts are the Crankshaft Position Sensor, I see you already replaced it. What brand did you use? If its from AutoZone or another like store, would recommend you replace it with a Mopar one.

Also, as someone mentioned, hook up a fuel pressure tester to it and see if you lose fuel pressure when it dies?

 

[Spike95]

I usually find that intermittent issues like that are electrical. Frequently a very slightly loose ground somewhere. It can cause all kinds of crazy issues. I would take off every ground connection you can find, clean all of the contacts with sandpaper, and reinstall them.

The other electrical issue that I’ve found will commonly cause an intermittent issue is a loose female terminal inside of a harness connector. Most frequently this is on a connector to a sensor. You can remove the terminals from the connector and try to gently bend them back to a tighter position internally. The best tool I have found for removing the terminals is the metal spine out of a used windshield wiper blade. I use a sanding wheel on my die grinder to shape it down to a size that will fit into the connector to release the terminals. (I can’t take credit for that Macgyver tool. Got it from someone else on here.)

Also, just a basic method that I haven’t seen you mention anywhere if you’ve done, so forgive me if it seems too elementary… Have you wiggle tested all of your harness with the engine running? With engine idling, go around to every one of the sensors and wiggle the harness around. If it stumbles, you know the culprit is likely in the vicinity.

 

[JDSR]

I agree with you Spike95 seems to be a place to start. His comment was he checked the grounds on engine and Bay Area and then took a trip, and didn’t have a issue till 200 miles. Also a lot of these components he is getting codes for shares the same ground.

 

[pacofortacos]

Check the black/w light blue tracer sensor ground wire - a bad connection or splice on that wire will cause issues like what you are having.
And it is hard to track down and find.

 

[Spike95]

I agree with you Spike95 seems to be a place to start. His comment was he checked the grounds on engine and Bay Area and then took a trip, and didn’t have a issue till 200 miles. Also a lot of these components he is getting codes for shares the same ground.

Yes I saw that he said he checked them. Some people’s definition of checking them are different than others, so that’s why I was specific about even taking them apart and sanding surfaces. I have felt ground connections before where everything seemed good and tight on first inspection, only to find out something wasn’t right when I disassembled for a better look.

There was a specific truck I remember was doing some strange stuff like turning on the reverse alarm when I’d use the turn signals, but not when in reverse. Had other symptoms as well, but that’s the one I remember most. I was a fairly fresh tech and working with a master tech who had 20 years experience. After a lot of testing, he wound up swapping the Body Controller with another truck and it seemed fixed for about a day. When it came back in, I started going through everything a second time. Turned out to be a compromised ground on the firewall that we had already checked and it had felt right. Cleaned up all the contact surfaces and reassembled, and the problems all went away. I studied the schematics afterward and figured out all of the different paths that things were trying to take to find a ground and causing the truck to act crazy. (This was on a big rig). A weak ground can cause all kinds of voodoo.

 

[16Ram4x4]

I agree with spike95 with checking your connections at the sensors for possible loose, bent or corroded female terminals.
Also agree with checking all grounding connections for corrosion or loose nuts or bolts.

 

[Prideless]

Reading through the post I have a few questions that need answers and we can hopefully sort this out.

What RPM does the engine idle at when cold and warm? - 1100 COLD 700 WARM - VERY SMOOTHLY THROUGHOUT

Have you inspected BOTH temp sensors? There is one feeding the dash and one feeding the PCM. WHICH TEMP SENSORS FOR WHAT REASON?

Does the engine die under load only or at idle or both? WHENEVER IT FEELS LIKE DYING, MOSTLY FROM IDLE, SINCE I AM SCARED TO DRIVE IT ANYMORE.

Any unmetered air leaking into the air stream? Smoke test? GASKETS GOOD - NO SMOKE TEST

Any vacuum leaks? Brake booster status? ALL SEEMS PERFECTLY GOOD

Have you checked or replaced the plenum gasket? NEVER

You’ve checked all engine grounds and chassis grounds? CHECKED ALL THAT I CAN FIND

Thanks in advance… THANK YOU

 

[Prideless]

Yes I saw that he said he checked them. Some people’s definition of checking them are different than others, so that’s why I was specific about even taking them apart and sanding surfaces.

FYI: As a former Jet Engine Mechanic and Auto Dealership mechanic, When I say "checked grounds", I mean I, discovered, inspected, removed bolts, and cleaned and snugged every ground I could find.

 

[MAC830203]

You have a short in the ground signal to pcm. Not the ground, but the signal wire.

 

[scrounge]

Keep your $, I'm more interested in keeping a Mopar running. My first guess would be a crank sensor, but you've replaced that. A bad cam sensor can also cause the problems you're having -- it's that flat disk inside of the distributor with a wire coming out of it, sometimes called a distributor pickup. If that doesn't work, I've had problems in the past with frayed wires that **** splices fixed. I also had a Dakota that had a loose wire harness to the PCM that would cause a no-start condition until I pressed it back in.

 

[MarineBSP]

to Prideless -

I will be curious to hear what you find when you check the O2 sensors and their wiring. I know it's hard to figure an oxygen sensor can be the fault here, but there is a long shot that one of them is involved. I am totally unfamiliar with the '97's electrical diagrams, but I did a quick Google, and it seems that your O2 sensor(s) are 4-wire units. Those heater element wires can provide an unintended ground or power if the wires are frayed. And I don't know how the sensors fit into the circuit diagram.

Not the same deal, but my daughter's car started blowing the fuel pump fuse 2 days after a shop put in a new drop-the-tank fuel pump (for $$$). I paid them because I don't have a hoist. I was just about convinced they must have botched the job, until I discovered that the upstream O2 heater circuit shared that fuse. Sure enough, an O2 sensor wire had rubbed against the transmission until it shorted - but only intermittently.