big trailer towing stability

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NewBlackDak

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What are the hardware differences between the 1500 and 2500 that make this discussion so black and white?. Agreed a 2500 is better for the subject weight. But WHY specifically?. I have a 1500 ECD and love the truck. Don't want to get rid of it and and cant afford it if I did. I don't want to say how big my travel trailer is, I'm too embarrassed. BUT. I've upgraded with WDH, Airbags (pressurized to 30 psi), load E tires and, will be upgrading brakes and shocks when the time comes. I have full tow package and run about 7.0 gain, full trailer brake controller and gauges for trans temp, coolant temp, oil temp, oil pressure. I admit, I'd be more comfortable with a 2500, but that's not in the card$$ right now. THE ECD pulls the trailer just fine. The setup stops fine and handles ...OK. A bit of bounce on some interstates but looking into that. Maybe upgraded shocks? Point being, if I'm within GAWR (which I am) and have addressed driveline limitations , and suspension limitations as well as braking performance; what else is there about a 2500 that makes it so much more suitable? PLease let me know what I may be missing.

The 2500 is the same truck as the 3500 save the rear suspension. Same frame, same full floating axles as an SRW, same front suspension, same engines, same transmission(save the aisin). Take a look under your 1500, then under a 2500, and you tell us the difference.

Can you stop that trailer if the trailer brakes go, or your umbilical falls out? Can you control it if one of the WD bars breaks or fails?


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crash68

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Can you stop that trailer if the trailer brakes go, or your umbilical falls out? Can you control it if one of the WD bars breaks or fails?

Those can be asked about any truck towing any trailer whether it's a 1500, 2500, 3500 or larger. More often than not, the person behind the wheel that makes the difference not what size truck is being used.
 

69GWC

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What are the hardware differences between the 1500 and 2500 that make this discussion so black and white?. Agreed a 2500 is better for the subject weight. But WHY specifically?. I have a 1500 ECD and love the truck. Don't want to get rid of it and and cant afford it if I did. I don't want to say how big my travel trailer is, I'm too embarrassed. BUT. I've upgraded with WDH, Airbags (pressurized to 30 psi), load E tires and, will be upgrading brakes and shocks when the time comes. I have full tow package and run about 7.0 gain, full trailer brake controller and gauges for trans temp, coolant temp, oil temp, oil pressure. I admit, I'd be more comfortable with a 2500, but that's not in the card$$ right now. THE ECD pulls the trailer just fine. The setup stops fine and handles ...OK. A bit of bounce on some interstates but looking into that. Maybe upgraded shocks? Point being, if I'm within GAWR (which I am) and have addressed driveline limitations , and suspension limitations as well as braking performance; what else is there about a 2500 that makes it so much more suitable? PLease let me know what I may be missing.


Alot of it is the fact the 1500 weighs 6k while the 2500 weighs 8k (rough numbers) with that weight you get more control over what you are pulling.
Then the fact everything on the 2500 is bigger so it can handle the weight just fine with out wearing it out to fast.

IMO the bigger brakes are needed on the 2500 because it weighs more in the first place.

If you pull lets say 7k all the time IMO you are much better off with a 2500 but if you pull 7k 5 to 10 times a year a 1500 is more than capable of doing this safely.

I have a 28' camper and feel I can pull it once a month with zero worries, if I pulled it 2 or 3 times a week I would have bought a 2500 .

Just my 2cents on it.


Now a stock 1500 IMO needs to have the rear springs replaced and or good airbags and the tires changed out to a D or E rated tire.

20180708_134800_HDR.jpg
 

Mcgruff

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What are the hardware differences between the 1500 and 2500 that make this discussion so black and white?. Agreed a 2500 is better for the subject weight. But WHY specifically?. I have a 1500 ECD and love the truck. Don't want to get rid of it and and cant afford it if I did. I don't want to say how big my travel trailer is, I'm too embarrassed. BUT. I've upgraded with WDH, Airbags (pressurized to 30 psi), load E tires and, will be upgrading brakes and shocks when the time comes. I have full tow package and run about 7.0 gain, full trailer brake controller and gauges for trans temp, coolant temp, oil temp, oil pressure. I admit, I'd be more comfortable with a 2500, but that's not in the card$$ right now. THE ECD pulls the trailer just fine. The setup stops fine and handles ...OK. A bit of bounce on some interstates but looking into that. Maybe upgraded shocks? Point being, if I'm within GAWR (which I am) and have addressed driveline limitations , and suspension limitations as well as braking performance; what else is there about a 2500 that makes it so much more suitable? PLease let me know what I may be missing.

I also pull a large trailer with a 1500 and have had this same “thought exercise”. 1) Power: no issue here as many can attest to. Until 2014 (I think) the 5.7 was your gas option for 2500/3500 trucks. 2) Stiffer Suspension: Can be addressed with upgrades. 3) Truck Weight: Heavier Truck obviously helps control but it’s all relative. Manufactures are always trying to lighten their trucks to up the tow rating. Lighter trim packages have higher payload and towing numbers. A 2500 towing near capacity has the same issue. Can’t do much about this but in a properly weight distributed setup and with towing specs I don’t think it’s a major issue. 4) Stiffer Frame: same as #3 in regards to towing near capacity. 5) Brakes: Same as #4. 6) Axle weight rating: Same as 4 and 5. 7)Wheelbase: for stability at highway speeds I think this is your biggest issue. That better turning radius in a parking lot is also why the trailer can have greater influence on the direction of your truck on the highway. Quality Anti-sway is crucial here. It is possible to get a long wheelbase crewcab full length bed 1500 as is a regular cab 2500 and be similar in wheelbase but at end of the day it’s a combination of things. Be meticulous in setup and maintenance, stay within ratings, take your time drive in the slow lane, enjoy.
 
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david potts

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Thank you gentlemen for your responses. I realize a 2500 provides more mass and therefore provides more stopping power relative to the entire package. A 10K trailer on a 6K truck has roughly 12% less stopping power (without trailer braking) than the same package on an 8K truck (i.e.; roughly 12% longer stopping distance). Nothing I can do about that. My quandary is based more on other 1/2 tons that claim up to 13,000 lbs towing capacity "if properly equipped". My exercise is in trying to get my 1500 ECD "properly equipped" after the fact. As for stopping the vehicle w/o electrical connection- that is one of my biggest worries. However, if the connection is lost, I get a warning on the dash and feel I can make a controlled stop and deal with that at the time the connection is lost. It should not come as a surprise. Also, mainly for comfort and mileage I rarely exceed 60 mph (58 is optimum for mpg) and tend to be that old guy in the right lane. Don't trailer all that often, but am looking forward to getting out of the cold weather of upstate NY for an extended period of time. As an engineer and ex aircraft mechanic, proper setup and maintenance is a given.
 

69GWC

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I feel my truck is properly set up to tow heavy now.
I have TuffTruck Spring 1211s
I have Timbergrove Airbags
I have a Hellwig sway bar
I have Bilstien shocks
And I have E rated tires.

My next step is to change out my rotors and pads to slotted and crossed drill rotors for better cooling and a better pad.

My truck now tows my trailer very easy as well as hauling weight with no worries.
 

Mcgruff

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On the topic of “what if the trailer brakes go out?”: the point is valid but to be fair anll kinda of things could break and be catastrophic. The Fast Lane Truck YouTube channel did a towing test with a RAM 1500 towing 7000+ pounds through the Colorado mountains. Down hill they forgot to set the gain on the brake controller and had no trailer brakes. They didn’t even realize it until they got to the bottom and measured the brake temp. Obviously had there been a emergency they might have found out the hard way, and this was super bad for the brakes and rotors, but it is interesting.
Here is the video link. They talk about what happened with the brakes starting about 7 minutes in.

 

david potts

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I feel my truck is properly set up to tow heavy now.
I have TuffTruck Spring 1211s
I have Timbergrove Airbags
I have a Hellwig sway bar
I have Bilstien shocks
And I have E rated tires.

My next step is to change out my rotors and pads to slotted and crossed drill rotors for better cooling and a better pad.

My truck now tows my trailer very easy as well as hauling weight with no worries.
 

david potts

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Nice setup. Brake rotors, pads, and calipers are next for me as well. Question: Does the sway bar help at all in towing or is that just for handling? I had not been considering a sway bar in my upgrade plans. Also, have you worried about axle bearing upgrades at all?
 

69GWC

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I think the sway bar just helps the truck at all times not just towing. JMO.

Not sure there are axle bearing upgrades , but I installed a Mag-Hytec aftermarket diff cover that allows the 1500 to hold 4 quarts of diff fluid plus I run Redline gear oil which is one if the best gear oils you can get.
 

TRCM

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I also pull a large trailer with a 1500 and have had this same “thought exercise”. 1) Power: no issue here as many can attest to. Until 2014 (I think) the 5.7 was your gas option for 2500/3500 trucks. 2) Stiffer Suspension: Can be addressed with upgrades. 3) Truck Weight: Heavier Truck obviously helps control but it’s all relative. Manufactures are always trying to lighten their trucks to up the tow rating. Lighter trim packages have higher payload and towing numbers. A 2500 towing near capacity has the same issue. Can’t do much about this but in a properly weight distributed setup and with towing specs I don’t think it’s a major issue. 4) Stiffer Frame: same as #3 in regards to towing near capacity. 5) Brakes: Same as #4. 6) Axle weight rating: Same as 4 and 5. 7)Wheelbase: for stability at highway speeds I think this is your biggest issue. That better turning radius in a parking lot is also why the trailer can have greater influence on the direction of your truck on the highway. Quality Anti-sway is crucial here. It is possible to get a long wheelbase crewcab full length bed 1500 as is a regular cab 2500 and be similar in wheelbase but at end of the day it’s a combination of things. Be meticulous in setup and maintenance, stay within ratings, take your time drive in the slow lane, enjoy.


I don't think they lighten the truck to get a higher tow rating...that is kinda backwards....but they do lighten the truck to get better mpg numbers....which is what 90% of the people out there are wanting.

The lighter trim packages have a higher tow rating because there are less accessories on them....not a design thing, it's a 'just how it works' thing.

They build a base level truck to do a certain job and have a given tow limit. They then add accessories for those who want a fancy schmancy truck, but the things that give it the tow rating are not changed, so, since weight was added, the tow rating has to go down.

Yes, the lighter truck has the higher rating, but it is not designed that way.


Kinda like getting groceries on a fixed $100 budget.

If you want a lot of plane jane meals, buy a lot of canned chicken & tuna and peanut butter/jelly and bread......like a low option truck with a high tow limit.

Or, if you want to eat fancy, buy steak and lobster....but realize those nicer meals will mean you eat less of them for that same $100......like a highly optioned trucks tow rating.

Either way, you still have a truck with the same axle ratings and engine/trans/brakes/etc......you just ate up some of your tow limit in exchange for more creature comfort and/or technology, just like still had the same $100 budget for groceries, you gave up more meals for better ones.
 
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muddy12

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I think the sway bar just helps the truck at all times not just towing. JMO.

Not sure there are axle bearing upgrades , but I installed a Mag-Hytec aftermarket diff cover that allows the 1500 to hold 4 quarts of diff fluid plus I run Redline gear oil which is one if the best gear oils you can get.

Have you seen Gale Banks’s video series on YouTube, regarding aftermarket dif covers?

Seems that the squared off cover have the potential to starve the pinion bearings.


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69GWC

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Have you seen Gale Banks’s video series on YouTube, regarding aftermarket dif covers?

Seems that the squared off cover have the potential to starve the pinion bearings.


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I have, my cover is not squared off on the inside it is rounded much like the stock cover but has the added benefit of better cooling and more fluid capacity. :)
Plus he has not proven that even the squared off covers have caused one failure.
Its a great video add for the diff covers that they will come out with, Mr Banks is a great salesman no question. :)
 

Black W900

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My 1500 is bone stock.....It pulls all of my trailers just fine.
I have a 27' T/T that weighs 4500# empty and I've never weighed it with all of my gear in it, but it pulls and stops just fine.
I have pulled my neighbors 32' T/T on a couple of trips and have never had any problems with handling or braking.
I load the crap out of my 6x12 2 axle utility trailer that has no brakes and have never had any problems getting it stopped.

If you load your trailer right and use a WDH, and use your brain....You will be fine.

We're actually considering upgrading to a 30' T/T in the near future and I will have no problem pulling it with my bone stock 1500.
 

Jughed

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My 1500 is bone stock.....It pulls all of my trailers just fine.
I have a 27' T/T that weighs 4500# empty and I've never weighed it with all of my gear in it, but it pulls and stops just fine.
I have pulled my neighbors 32' T/T on a couple of trips and have never had any problems with handling or braking.
I load the crap out of my 6x12 2 axle utility trailer that has no brakes and have never had any problems getting it stopped.

If you load your trailer right and use a WDH, and use your brain....You will be fine.

We're actually considering upgrading to a 30' T/T in the near future and I will have no problem pulling it with my bone stock 1500.

I use my brain, proper loading and WDH...

I tried towing the same trailer as the op - Jayco 294QBH (why I read this thread in the first place) - with my 1500 big horn. Multiple adjustments with a 1200# rated WDH - changing settings/tuning the hitch made little or no difference handling. The truck was simply over matched by the trailer.

-Braking sucked.
-Handling sucked.
-Stock P rated tired sucked.
-Extra parts/airbags were needed to stop the truck from squatting.

Power was fine - but that's about it.

Truck also didn't tow my 5k boat very well. The ass end of the truck is just soft.

Had a 2WD "1500" (all Mega's are based on 2500 platfoms) Mega Cab prior - night and day difference between the two. Perhaps it was the step down in truck that made me realize the deficiencies in the true 1500.

IMHO - these 1500's are not suited for towing much more than 5-6k stock - more than that and you need LT tires, air bags, sway bars, helper springs - and the biggie - bigger brakes.
 

OC455

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Thank you gentlemen for your responses. I realize a 2500 provides more mass and therefore provides more stopping power relative to the entire package. A 10K trailer on a 6K truck has roughly 12% less stopping power (without trailer braking) than the same package on an 8K truck (i.e.; roughly 12% longer stopping distance). Nothing I can do about that. My quandary is based more on other 1/2 tons that claim up to 13,000 lbs towing capacity "if properly equipped". My exercise is in trying to get my 1500 ECD "properly equipped" after the fact. As for stopping the vehicle w/o electrical connection- that is one of my biggest worries. However, if the connection is lost, I get a warning on the dash and feel I can make a controlled stop and deal with that at the time the connection is lost. It should not come as a surprise. Also, mainly for comfort and mileage I rarely exceed 60 mph (58 is optimum for mpg) and tend to be that old guy in the right lane. Don't trailer all that often, but am looking forward to getting out of the cold weather of upstate NY for an extended period of time. As an engineer and ex aircraft mechanic, proper setup and maintenance is a given.

More than anything, the weight distribution hitch being setup correctly and having it CAT scaled will get you where you need to be. Airbags and better tires will help with stability as well, but the WDH is important. I spent a few days setting the WDH on my truck and travel trailer. I bought XL tires for my truck and eliminated the "squirm" feel when towing and the Timber Grove air assist springs helped with any of the other minor issues as well. If you are in Albany NY, there is a CAT scale West of you on the I90 at Exit 28 in Fultonville. Best advice is to buy a quality WDH (Curt, Equalizer, Blue Ox or something similar) with built in 4 point sway control and get your initial setup done and then take a short ride with it and make your adjustments right before you scale it. Scaling it will get you set for stable safe towing. VernDiesel is who I asked advice from to set everything right.

I've taken two trips this year from CNY to Lake George and set my cruise control at 65MPH on the I90 and enjoyed the ride in the driving lane. Didn't get pushed around by passing trucks and no ill effects from any winds blowing across the 90. You can spend ridiculous amounts of money, but spending it on a good WHD is the best option IMO.
 

slim chance

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ok .. i tow a 30' TT with a 7000# gvw .... have asked myself many of these same questions .. then found this explanation on YouTube .... look at this ..."Payload Problems: how much can i (really) tow? RV truck & Trailer" here is a link ..

after you watch the video download the excel spreadsheet and fill it in for your truck .... i am sure you will be surprised ... my new truck has only 300# excess payload and this is not what the online charts for RAM lead you to believe ... you say this is not important, i can tow this rig ok BUT if you are ever in an accident your insurance co will not be sitting beside you to defend or cover you IF you are over weight no matter if you changed the tires or added air bags or whatever
 

Jughed

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ok .. i tow a 30' TT with a 7000# gvw .... have asked myself many of these same questions .. then found this explanation on YouTube .... look at this ..."Payload Problems: how much can i (really) tow? RV truck & Trailer" here is a link ..

after you watch the video download the excel spreadsheet and fill it in for your truck .... i am sure you will be surprised ... my new truck has only 300# excess payload and this is not what the online charts for RAM lead you to believe ... you say this is not important, i can tow this rig ok BUT if you are ever in an accident your insurance co will not be sitting beside you to defend or cover you IF you are over weight no matter if you changed the tires or added air bags or whatever

IMHO - these max tow numbers are sales gimmicks. If you dig in to the real numbers, few situations allow you to reach that max number.

Tongue weight is counted towards payload weight. My camper loaded tongue weight was 1000-1100#+/-, add the 80# WD hitch... my 1500 had 1400# of payload...

That left me with 220# for people and gear. So that means I couldn't even be in the truck... let along my wife, kids, bikes, dogs, camp firewood... GAS... BEER!...

My truck had a 10,200# tow rating, yet an 8k TT put me over the limit.
 
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